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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonnick View Post
    Until you need the treatment, then you wont care what clinical trials the treatment has had.
    Well, yes, I actually will. The thing is, I desire treatments that actually work, so I care whether a given treatment has been shown to be effective or ineffective. In the case of acupuncture, it's been thoroughly demonstrated to be no more effective than a placebo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonnick View Post
    After trying what was recommended and it not working I am pretty sure you would seek alternative treatments instead of just sitting there doing nothing.
    If I were sufficiently desperate, I might be inclined to try treatments that hadn't been thoroughly tested. That doesn't mean I'd try things that have been conclusively shown to not work, especially when those things have absolutely no plausible mechanism of action.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Well, yes, I actually will. The thing is, I desire treatments that actually work, so I care whether a given treatment has been shown to be effective or ineffective. In the case of acupuncture, it's been thoroughly demonstrated to be no more effective than a placebo.



    If I were sufficiently desperate, I might be inclined to try treatments that hadn't been thoroughly tested. That doesn't mean I'd try things that have been conclusively shown to not work, especially when those things have absolutely no plausible mechanism of action.
    It's been tested and used for thousands of years but unfortunatly you can't patent it so you wont see it recommended here.
    Last edited by Ondonnick; 2013-01-26 at 07:17 PM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonnick View Post
    It's been tested and used for thousands of years but unfortunatly you can't patent it so you wont see it recommend here.
    Surely you won't see medical professionals recommending that sick people stay hydrated and get rest, right? I mean, no money to be made there, so obviously the terrible world of Western medicine will shun it.

    I suppose if I didn't have a shred of evidence for claims, I'd go with the ol' pharma shill gambit too.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Surely you won't see medical professionals recommending that sick people stay hydrated and get rest, right? I mean, no money to be made there, so obviously the terrible world of Western medicine will shun it.

    I suppose if I didn't have a shred of evidence for claims, I'd go with the ol' pharma shill gambit too.
    I am talking from experience, you are just saying stuff to argue and boost your post count.

  5. #45
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonnick View Post
    I am talking from experience, you are just saying stuff to argue and boost your post count.
    You're using anecdotal evidence and appeals to tradition. Neither of which are valid.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Surely you won't see medical professionals recommending that sick people stay hydrated and get rest, right? I mean, no money to be made there, so obviously the terrible world of Western medicine will shun it.

    I suppose if I didn't have a shred of evidence for claims, I'd go with the ol' pharma shill gambit too.
    Not a shred of evidence? Here is ONE study. There are more out there, even ones conducted by the U.S. military that shows it works.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/life-styl...icle-1.1156095

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonnick View Post
    I am talking from experience, you are just saying stuff to argue and boost your post count.
    You've literally not made a single cogent argument. The plural of anecdote is not data.

  8. #48
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithbreaker View Post
    Not a shred of evidence? Here is ONE study. There are more out there, even ones conducted by the U.S. military that shows it works.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/life-styl...icle-1.1156095
    A news article doesn't prove anything, actually. If you have a link to the actual study, you would do well to post that.

  9. #49
    Scarab Lord namelessone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sayl View Post
    Well, that's because (as Grokan noted above) it's pseudoscience. Most people have figured out that bloodletting has no scientific value, why not acupuncture as well?



    I'm sure there are cheaper means of administering a placebo which don't involve needles and the associated risks.
    http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/arti...513#qundefined

    "Conclusions: Acupuncture is effective for the treatment of chronic pain and is therefore a reasonable referral option. Significant differences between true and sham acupuncture indicate that acupuncture is more than a placebo. However, these differences are relatively modest, suggesting that factors in addition to the specific effects of needling are important contributors to the therapeutic effects of acupuncture."

    This is from peer-reviewed journal.
    The night is dark and full of terrors...

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    You're using anecdotal evidence and appeals to tradition. Neither of which are valid.
    Someone asked a question, I replied with my opinion based off of personal experience. If you tried acupuncture and it didnt work let's hear about it. I don't understand why it bothers you so much that it worked for my son.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/arti...513#qundefined

    Conclusions Acupuncture is effective for the treatment of chronic pain and is therefore a reasonable referral option. Significant differences between true and sham acupuncture indicate that acupuncture is more than a placebo. However, these differences are relatively modest, suggesting that factors in addition to the specific effects of needling are important contributors to the therapeutic effects of acupuncture.

    This is from peer-reviewed journal.
    I was in a car accident and had back injuries. I tried acupuncture and it did nothing for the pain, regular chiropractor was much better.

    This is from an actual person who tried it journal.

  12. #52
    Scarab Lord Arkenaw's Avatar
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    I don't believe in that nonsense.

  13. #53
    my question is to the ppl that say it dont work, who did not have a personal treatment them selfs.

    How do you know this dont work ?

    And dont say cuz goodle told you.
    - Thanks Axalicious for this awesome sig.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    You've literally not made a single cogent argument. The plural of anecdote is not data.
    I am not trying to convince anyone. Your forum title should be "Internet Hero" , cuz you're so awesome.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Faithbreaker View Post
    Not a shred of evidence? Here is ONE study. There are more out there, even ones conducted by the U.S. military that shows it works.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/life-styl...icle-1.1156095
    If you're going to use the phrase, "here is one study", you should probably link the study instead of a news source. Here's the actual study.

    The problem with this study is that it's a meta-analysis that includes numerous studies of poor quality, giving more than a bit of a garbage in-garbage out result. Here's their method:

    Randomized controlled trials were eligible for analysis if they included at least 1 group receiving acupuncture needling and 1 group receiving either sham (placebo) acupuncture or no-acupuncture control. The RCTs must have accrued patients with 1 of 4 indications—nonspecific back or neck pain, shoulder pain, chronic headache, or osteoarthritis—with the additional criterion that the current episode of pain must be of at least 4 weeks duration for musculoskeletal disorders. There was no restriction on the type of outcomemeasure, although we specified that the primary end point must be measured more than 4 weeks after the initial acupuncture treatment.
    Do you see the problem? They included studies that don't actually have control group. That severely biases the end results. Putting studies together that aren't at all comparing the same treatments is a poor approach to a meta-study, to put it lightly.

    If you check what they're measuring, they're basically assigning pain scores and looking for statistically significant differences; a problem here is that a large sample leads to things being of statistical significance that are not of clinical significance (i.e., a measurable difference that is small enough to not be an actual effect).

  16. #56
    Scarab Lord namelessone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lockedout View Post
    I was in a car accident and had back injuries. I tried acupuncture and it did nothing for the pain, regular chiropractor was much better.

    This is from an actual person who tried it journal.
    Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.
    The night is dark and full of terrors...

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Roxinius View Post
    spoken like someone closed minded and has no clue what they are talking about


    Anecdotal evidence is an oxymoron.

  18. #58
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonnick View Post
    Someone asked a question, I replied with my opinion based off of personal experience. If you tried acupuncture and it didnt work let's hear about it. I don't understand why it bothers you so much that it worked for my son.
    It doesn't bother me that it worked for you. It bothers me that you argue using anecdotal evidence. I don't have any, and I wouldn't use it to make a point because it's worthless to do so.
    Quote Originally Posted by lockedout View Post
    I was in a car accident and had back injuries. I tried acupuncture and it did nothing for the pain, regular chiropractor was much better.

    This is from an actual person who tried it journal.
    You assume that people in tests aren't "actual people who tried it?"

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    A news article doesn't prove anything, actually. If you have a link to the actual study, you would do well to post that.
    Fair enough, here is the closest I can find with out spending an hour clicking on links: http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/arti...513#qundefined

  20. #60
    Scarab Lord namelessone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Do you see the problem? They included studies that don't actually have control group. That severely biases the end results. Putting studies together that aren't at all comparing the same treatments is a poor approach to a meta-study, to put it lightly.

    If you check what they're measuring, they're basically assigning pain scores and looking for statistically significant differences; a problem here is that a large sample leads to things being of statistical significance that are not of clinical significance (i.e., a measurable difference that is small enough to not be an actual effect).
    Please look at the article that I posted. It included control group ("sham acupuncture" - i.e. acupuncture that didn't follow the traditional method). Also please post your credentials.
    The night is dark and full of terrors...

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