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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by puppypizza View Post
    I don't care about gear, that's the funniest thing. I was even giving away or passing on heroic stuff to poor people in LFD if I was winning too much stuff. All I want to do is enter the last two raids in LFR. But here's the catch: I can't queue for them unless I have an average item level of 470. I have 463/465 right now, so what do I need to get in?
    You can craft/do more LFR's.
    When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.

  2. #222
    For my personal play style that I have these days, I find it a big minus.
    Karma always has the last laugh.

  3. #223
    I don't see it as an issue for non raiders at all since they are asking you to do a minimal amount of grinding to get raid quality gear. I do not see it as an issue for raiders since they are getting drops from raids which tend to be better overall. If you need items fast then it is an issue. But then they system was put inplace to curb everyone on farm farming whole raiding sets overnight then bitch about having nothing to do across all their toons..

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 08:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarac View Post
    I couldn't care less for reputation, but coins only being available in dailies pisses me off. Give me 10-15 coins to complete a daily heroic.
    It's an optional bonus. It gets you out doing other things. If you do not like it then don't do them. I love how people complain about all this optional stuff.

  4. #224
    I'm one of those oft maligned "casual" gamers. I usually only get to play maybe two hours a day and sometimes go several days without playing at all. And while I understand peoples frustrations it really doesn't take long to get ONE character through all the MoP reps. I have reached exalted with all the MoP factions and even completed the Operation: Shieldwall a few weeks ago.

    If a player like me that is not very good and has limited play time can get through the rep grind, anyone can. Now granted when I was doing the rep grind on my main THAT was ALL that I was doing. Log in do dailies times up log out.

    Now, here is where I start to have problems with the rep grind, Alts. I have 10 alts and only six of them are at current level cap the other four are still at 85 and no desire to push them to 90. If I were to pursue the rep grind on all of my current level 90s it would require about six hours a day JUST doing dailies...and that is not so fun.

    Sure we have increased rep gains now but there is still only ONE way to get that rep and that is through dailies. So instead of 60 days of rep grinding I only have to do 40 (or whatever the math works out to be) which is nice but still very repetitive.

    As for the being "forced" to do the rep grind in order to progress...that is simply not true. One of my alts (holy pally) has not done any dailies and after just a week or so of reaching level 90 is already able to queue for MSV, HoF and ToeS. So it is possible to get into all all the LFRs without doing ANY dailies. Sure you probably are not going to ding 90 and insta-queue for LFR but I suppose it is possible given enough gold you could probably buy enough crafted and/or BoE gear to get into LFR within a couple of hours of dinging 90.


    I guess you could say that you are "forced" to do dailies if you want the other rewards (mounts, patterns, pets, etc) from a certain faction but those are only wants and the only reason I wanted to do the dailies on my main was for the mounts. But since it was something I wanted and doing dailies was/is the only available path to get what I wanted I didn't feel that I was forced to do them, rather I made choice to do them in order to get what I wanted. I won't do them again though unless its maybe for certain crafting patterns but again it would be something I want not something that is needed or required.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    You can do that in MoP, you choose to do dailies because you want those rewards.
    Do what, dungeons? I have every piece of heroic gear I can get. I suppose I could keep running them for those super-rare purple items, but with a 0.3% chance of dropping, I think we can agree that it'd be an exercise in futility. At least in previous expansions, my consolation prize was Justice points, which I could haul over to the quartermaster to cash in for gear. Now he's carding me to see if I'm exalted with the Flower Picker's Union, which shouldn't have anything to do with dungeons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    You can craft/do more LFR's.
    Crafted gear would get me about 2 more points, but not enough to meet the next requirement. LFR would be nice to do, but with the limit of one run a week, plus no charms unless you do dailies, my current gearing rate is about 1 out of 6. Judging from player commentary, that's actually pretty good for LFR so I must have been lucky.

    Instead of coming up with all these hoops to jump through just to get around Blizzard's new restrictions just so we can see the content, and pitting players against players with differing opinions, wouldn't it simpler to just replace the Valor quartermaster, and make charms purchasable through them? Then you would have a choice again: grind reps at your leisure for gear, or bang out hundreds of dungeons so you can qualify for raids. Everyone wins, everyone's happy.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    Because, in this genre you don't "beat" the game. So you have certain gates or barriers. If you don't like the genre, I suggest playing games that aren't in the genre.

    You don't beat Call of Duty or Battlefield 3 at least not the part you play endlessly and that's the Multiplayer. You log in, you play with and against other people for endless hours. I understand that MMOs are a different beast, but I think it's not a very god arguement to always fall back on "It's a MMO, it's suppose to have chores" Games evolve, genres expand and become more than just X or Y, they become X,Y and Z. Blizzard has clearly shown they want to expand out Wow to appeal to everyone and not just the table top geeks

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by puppypizza View Post
    Do what, dungeons? I have every piece of heroic gear I can get. I suppose I could keep running them for those super-rare purple items, but with a 0.3% chance of dropping, I think we can agree that it'd be an exercise in futility. At least in previous expansions, my consolation prize was Justice points, which I could haul over to the quartermaster to cash in for gear. Now he's carding me to see if I'm exalted with the Flower Picker's Union, which shouldn't have anything to do with dungeons.



    Crafted gear would get me about 2 more points, but not enough to meet the next requirement. LFR would be nice to do, but with the limit of one run a week, plus no charms unless you do dailies, my current gearing rate is about 1 out of 6. Judging from player commentary, that's actually pretty good for LFR so I must have been lucky.

    Instead of coming up with all these hoops to jump through just to get around Blizzard's new restrictions just so we can see the content, and pitting players against players with differing opinions, wouldn't it simpler to just replace the Valor quartermaster, and make charms purchasable through them? Then you would have a choice again: grind reps at your leisure for gear, or bang out hundreds of dungeons so you can qualify for raids. Everyone wins, everyone's happy.
    Again, if your only motivation in this game is gear, then you will not really have that much fun.

    I got my second toon into LFR's without doing dailies. Somehow I think you can manage as well. In fact, my 2nd 90 could do the latter raids before my first, which I used to grind reps. I had to buy crafted gear, do heroics and scenarios, but it was much quicker. Again, if your only motivation is gear and by extention Ilvl, then you are gonna' have a bad time. No offense, but how can you say it isn't about gear when most of your post was centered around gear being motivation? I don't remember anyone in the old days wishing they could rush through content, I just can't understand the attitude.

    The reason they added hoops is simple. In Cata, everything was insanely easy. They had laughable heroics added later in the game for the "catch up" thing. The leveling was so simple, you could get to 85 and be in the then new LFR feature from level 1 within days, and even be caught up on many reps. So what happened? People blew through content, maxed out toons, got all the gear from the LAST RAID and most current raid quickly then unsubbed. So they made it take more time.

    The worse part of this is the side effect of people just spamming dungeons for rep. People still saw this as a chore, and instead of doing their best they would behave like jackasses, and afk even in dungeons! The plague of that attitude eventually went to LFR as I am sure you noticed. You can pretty much count on 1/5th of your group, whether it being LFR or LFD being afk or useless.

    IMO, I prefer it this way. if you want to mindlessly grind reps, you can do it solo. Or like I did, group up and blow through them.

    It might be a good idea to think on the Charms for valor thing. Its not a terrible idea, but they are supposed to be something totally extra, not something you SHOULD have, but something you CAN have.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 05:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    You don't beat Call of Duty or Battlefield 3 at least not the part you play endlessly and that's the Multiplayer. You log in, you play with and against other people for endless hours. I understand that MMOs are a different beast, but I think it's not a very god arguement to always fall back on "It's a MMO, it's suppose to have chores" Games evolve, genres expand and become more than just X or Y, they become X,Y and Z. Blizzard has clearly shown they want to expand out Wow to appeal to everyone and not just the table top geeks
    They have sold out to appeal to more money. Its really crapping on the genre imo. If you don't like MMO's or the genre, I suggest playing a different game. This would be akin to demanding "gear" in CoD. 'Yo bro, I should earn money for kills, then I can buy gear that would increase various stats on my CoD character!' Its just wrong. You are demanding a whole genre and game change around your needs, your available time, and how you want it. Why not find game better suited to those needs? Do you find a mildly attractive girl/boy and then demand they change their taste in music, style of dress, and what kind of career they would want?
    When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by puppypizza View Post
    Interesting thesis. I'd like to provide one as well: an MMO with too many "chores" (i.e. stifling players) will die.

    And I would like to think that I could do something entertaining yet meaningful by logging in every day. That's what it's there for, right? I paid Blizzard for 31 days of game time; you bet your bottom that I'm gonna try to get as much fun out of it as possible. If my only reason to log in is to do dailies, then I'd rather not. I like running dungeons and raids. I do not like to kill 5 goats or collect 20 wings every day, and can't see how this is any more helpful to a faction than slaying their greatest nemesis on a regular basis. I was able to do this in Wrath and Cataclysm. I cannot do this in Pandaria, and quite frankly, this sucks.
    How is it a thesis when it's a pretty much MMO Development 101? Any MMO developer will tell you that gating to some degree is necessary. Well, assuming they want their game to survive.

    If you're not incited to get reputation for the valor items, then it's simple, don't do it. Just don't complain about not getting rewards.

    But yeah, in WotLK and Cataclysm you could sit in your capital of choice, queued and max out faceless reputations, bet most players in Cata could barely find the factions strongholds.. and it was so much fun hearing people whine about having to do some questlines to unlock the Dragonmaw quartermaster in Twilight Highlands. Luckily Blizzard realized that this is not healthy for the world, it speeds up character progression too much, dungeons offering rep is too generous, and factions lost their meaning.

    Frankly I'm quite amazed there's so much controversy regarding dailies. No one but yourselves sets the goals. You feel like you "have to" do all dailies everyday? That's your issue, not Blizzards. Also, how many months of VP capping would it take to buy all "necessary" items once you're revered with the 5.0 - 5.1 ones?

    It's laziness. That's what it is. My first 90 did Golden Lotus maybe 8-10 times in total until he got Revered. How many weeks do you need in order to buy a valor item for each available slot from the GL vendors? 6. You can't do their dailies once every 4-5 days?
    And what do you know, despite faction items taking way longer to purchase than to unlock, Blizzard gave us +100% rep for alts.
    I got an alt to 90 a couple of days ago.. after finishing most of Dread Wastes I was at 4000/21000 REVERED with Klaxxi. Now this took only a day, but it'd take 3 weeks to get Valor to purchase their items.

    The way I see it, there's some strength in saying dailies are boring and might feel like a chore.. (even though there's absolutely no need whatsoever to do them every day, unless you somehow earn 5000 valor per week.) but I just see this as a lingering 4.3 syndrome. From a time when a non-raider could cap his weekly gain in 2 hours doing 7 dungeons, never setting foot outside his capital. Not because he necessarily preferred it that way, but because it was the simplest.

    This whole debate is a dead horse. Although it has waned as people sucked it up, did dailies now and then and realized they couldn't spend all their accumulated Valor anyway.

    Then you would have a choice again: grind reps at your leisure for gear, or bang out hundreds of dungeons so you can qualify for raids. Everyone wins, everyone's happy.
    The dungeon "option" doesn't work, and that's why it was taken out. Players choose the most convenient, rewarding route. Always. Dungeons have plenty of rewards, they shouldn't award rep. I'm highly sceptical of the duct tape fix of giving 1000 rep for a couple of instances. Players will still cry about having to do dailies to "max" rep per day or to get lesser charms which they of course MUST have.
    Last edited by MasterHamster; 2013-01-30 at 11:20 PM.
    Nyoro~n? (´・ω・`)
    5:2 diet? Pft!

    One year, 62kg/136lb lost. Only a little bit left...

  9. #229
    For everyone INSISTING that dailies are totally optional I have a question for you. If they removed the gear and overwhelming REWARD that COMPELS people to do these fucking dailies would you touch them? Did you do them in the past when they didn't have all those gear and all those charms? Why is that the Blizzard and most of you can acknowledge that THE GEAR IS A MASSIVE CARROT but at the same time insist they're optional. Do you consider the cheese at the end of the maze optional to the mouse? I wonder how many people will do these fucking dailies in 5.2 without the gear tied to them. Alot less I'd wager. Why is that? BECAUSE THEY WILL SURE AS HELL FEEL ALOT LESS FORCED.

    Blizzard was hiding behind the community in this, which itself is hiding behind some literal definition of the word forced. They've had to change it up for 5.2 because hiding behind the community doesn't work when your customers are up in arms over daily quest bullshit. The fact that they hid behind you guys is really fucking gay. Blizzard KNOWS and KNEW exactly what it was doing when it put the gear behind the dailies. THEY WANTED YOU TO DO THAT SHIT and regardless of their claims they knew you would feel forced to do it. That is precisely what they were after. They don't make content so you can IGNORE DOING IT. They make it so you do it. PERIOD. That's why the reward was behind it. Turns out, people didn't like it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 11:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    snip
    The problem that you people don't fucking get is that for many logging in only for a couple of nights was Ideal for them. Logging in to basically raid and then if they actually felt like it later because THEY CHOSE TO and not because they were compelled from reward was actually the ideal play style. That's been flipped on it's head because you guys whined about not having enough to "do" when the reality was you didn't because Blizzard didn't produce it FAST ENOUGH or varied enough for that matter. They've solved the varied problem in MoP to a large extent, theirs lots of different stuff to do but the reality of it is that none of it is rewarding enough. It's all shit and gets you nowhere.

    I'll ask again. In 5.2 will you still do dailies? Now that they don't reward gear? For those of you who say yes I'm happy for you. We could have avoided months of BULLSHIT on forums and in game if you had just got on board and said yea remove the gear from dailies. You'd still fucking do them anyway right? For those of you who say No well that's to bad for you I guess. ALl I know is I'm glad rep is back in raids and dungeons WHERE IT BELONGS.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-01-30 at 11:25 PM.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    They have sold out to appeal to more money. Its really crapping on the genre imo. If you don't like MMO's or the genre, I suggest playing a different game. This would be akin to demanding "gear" in CoD. 'Yo bro, I should earn money for kills, then I can buy gear that would increase various stats on my CoD character!' Its just wrong. You are demanding a whole genre and game change around your needs, your available time, and how you want it. Why not find game better suited to those needs? Do you find a mildly attractive girl/boy and then demand they change their taste in music, style of dress, and what kind of career they would want?
    Why does it always have to be a "they sold out ?" I want my game to be consumed by as many people as possible. I'm not interested in making a game that only 6 people will play, but it will be the perfect game to those 6 people. And now that you mention it, Look at Call of Duty today and what it was like in the first release. Look at all the successful first person shooters from 1998-2001 and look at them today. The basics are still the same, but the "leveling" they've added is something fairly unusual and it seems to work. At the same time, I'm willing to bet if they added "chores" to a game like CoD, it would die.

    I'm going to predict that the things we do today, the things you think are basic MMO "requirements" will be optional in the next Generation. I think we'll see WoW and all new games become what people claim they don't want. That MMO's will be more instant plays and less grinds. You might be on of those that argue that dungeons should all be like BRD back in Vanilla a 2-3 hour adventures. I say that market has passed. I think they will still have grinds for rep and other things, I just believe they will be on par with pet battles in the future. And the MMO that gets it right, will grow and pass WoW (if it's not WoW that does it first\best)
    Last edited by Mad_Murdock; 2013-01-30 at 11:26 PM.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    For everyone INSISTING that dailies are totally optional I have a question for you. If they removed the gear and overwhelming REWARD that COMPELS people to do these fucking dailies would you touch them? Did you do them in the past when they didn't have all those gear and all those charms? Why is that the Blizzard and most of you can acknowledge that THE GEAR IS A MASSIVE CARROT but at the same time insist they're optional. Do you consider the cheese at the end of the maze optional to the mouse? I wonder how many people will do these fucking dailies in 5.2 without the gear tied to them. Alot less I'd wager. Why is that? BECAUSE THEY WILL SURE AS HELL FEEL ALOT LESS FORCED.
    No, I wouldn't do dailies if there wasn't Valor items behind them, if I could sleep through dungeons for them instead.
    Since this is an MMO, I expect to be doing some mundane tasks for a while to unlock them. Why? Because I want those items.
    Previously factions were "mandatory" thanks to i200 shit or helm enchants. Same thing. 'Cept no one had any reason to complain since you easily ramped up those rep bars all while getting other currencies and items from dungeons.

    And yup, gear is a very powerful incentative. It's just that you could do fine without doing a single daily. You'd gimp yourself, of course. Similar to how I don't necessarily cap valor on every character I have every week.

    5.2 factions? Meh. From what I know one's tied to raids and the other uses a similar formula as 5.1. Will they be popular? Or "forced"? Maybe.

    Blizzard was hiding behind the community in this, which itself is hiding behind some literal definition of the word forced. They've had to change it up for 5.2 because hiding behind the community doesn't work when your customers are up in arms over daily quest bullshit. The fact that they hid behind you guys is really fucking gay. Blizzard KNOWS and KNEW exactly what it was doing when it put the gear behind the dailies. THEY WANTED YOU TO DO THAT SHIT and regardless of their claims they knew you would feel forced to do it. That is precisely what they were after. They don't make content so you can IGNORE DOING IT. They make it so you do it. PERIOD. That's why the reward was behind it. Turns out, people didn't like it.


    Uh yes, they wanted us to do the 5.0/5.1 dailies, because even if you only do them 1-2 times a week you're set to spend your capped Valor.
    No goddamn Rep Tabards to make players instantly idle in Org/SW after hitting 90. Good for the game as a whole.
    People didn't like it? I'm not sure you're supposed to particularly enjoy daily quests. You do them because you want the rewards.
    They don't let you burn through them by doing 50 dungeons in a day because that burns people out. Allows people to progress too quickly.

    The problem that you people don't fucking get is that for many logging in only for a couple of nights was Ideal for them. Logging in to basically raid and then if they actually felt like it later because THEY CHOSE TO and not because they were compelled from reward was actually the ideal play style. That's been flipped on it's head because you guys whined about not having enough to "do" when the reality was you didn't because Blizzard didn't produce it FAST ENOUGH or varied enough for that matter. They've solved the varied problem in MoP to a large extent, theirs lots of stuff to do but the reality of it is that none of it is rewarding enough. It's all shit and gets you nowhere.
    Anyone who merely plays about 2 times a week can progress. Perhaps not cap valor, depending on how they spend their time. So?
    And yeah, without rewards players quit. 4.3 made people bored. And it was obvious. The 7 dungeon-in-an-evening bullshit made people quit because they had nothing meaningful to progress towards. An MMO that cannot provide incentatives will fail.

    I'll ask again. In 5.2 will you still do dailies? Now that they don't reward gear? For those of you who say yes I'm happy for you. We could have avoided months of BULLSHIT on forums and in game if you had just got on board and said yea remove the gear from dailies. You'd still fucking do them anyway right? For those of you who say No well that's to bad for you I guess. ALl I know is I'm glad rep is back in raids and dungeons WHERE IT BELONGS.
    Perhaps I will, depends on what they give me.
    Each faction's finest are spearheading the assault: the Kirin-Tor Offensive led by Jaina Proudmoore and the Sunreaver Onslaught led by Lor'themar Theron. Earning reputation with these new factions offers heroes the opportunity to receive new quests and reputation rewards, including powerful items and an intimidating new mount.

    I'm still not going to say remove gear from dailies because I want the game and world to flourish, not funnel people into LFD.
    And with a tiny bit of common sense it's pretty obvious why the game shouldn't let players cap everything for safely queuing.
    I'll continue doing faction quests for gear rewards at my own pace, I don't really have a need for the recipes/mounts.

    PS. Reputation doesn't belong in dungeons because it funnels players into the most convenient "alternative", causing the world to die off.
    But anyway, see you in 5.2 when you're upset because you're not getting Lesser Charms from doing a dungeon? Or because those who do dailies still progress faster than you?
    Last edited by MasterHamster; 2013-01-30 at 11:52 PM.
    Nyoro~n? (´・ω・`)
    5:2 diet? Pft!

    One year, 62kg/136lb lost. Only a little bit left...

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    Again, if your only motivation in this game is gear, then you will not really have that much fun.

    I got my second toon into LFR's without doing dailies. Somehow I think you can manage as well. In fact, my 2nd 90 could do the latter raids before my first, which I used to grind reps. I had to buy crafted gear, do heroics and scenarios, but it was much quicker. Again, if your only motivation is gear and by extention Ilvl, then you are gonna' have a bad time. No offense, but how can you say it isn't about gear when most of your post was centered around gear being motivation? I don't remember anyone in the old days wishing they could rush through content, I just can't understand the attitude.
    I do not care about gear. I'd do the raids naked if I could. The only aspect in which I "care" about gear is how it's required to get into Heart of Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring. If I met the requirement to enter those raids, we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation. I'd bum a ride out of another guild if I could, but the Normal requirements are likely even stiffer than the LFR one. I'd even dare say that I could probably beat out the DPS of many other people sitting at a 470 average, considering that I was above the halfway point of DPS just on my first LFR with just heroic gear.

    I want to do the raid. I haven't watched videos on it, though I have read the dungeon journals many times. I want to see them played out on my computer screen and experience them first-hand, and I want it to be a surprise. If I could do it just once, then I'd be perfectly satisfied.

    If my "reliance" on gear to see content is the same as "caring about" gear, then so be it. In that case, yes, I do "care" about gear. Up to the point where I can just shard or delete it once it gets me past the front gate of those raids. If LFR is meant for casuals, and dailies are not mandatory, then they must be expecting a lot of patience from a player.

    Out of curiosity, how long did it take for your second 90 to become eligible for all LFR raids? In calendar days and in-game time. My current character has 38 hours spent at level 90, which is spread out about 2 weeks. And not that I don't believe you, but how did you pass the 470 requirement with heroic and scenario rewards, when they only award at best 463 gear?

    I just checked the auction house for upgrades like you suggested earlier, but there are only chestpieces and gloves (which are absurdly priced, by the way, but I don't count that as a limiting factor). So now I'm at 464. What do I do now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    The reason they added hoops is simple. In Cata, everything was insanely easy. They had laughable heroics added later in the game for the "catch up" thing. The leveling was so simple, you could get to 85 and be in the then new LFR feature from level 1 within days, and even be caught up on many reps. So what happened? People blew through content, maxed out toons, got all the gear from the LAST RAID and most current raid quickly then unsubbed. So they made it take more time.
    Ok, maybe this is where we differ. I play a game for me, though that's not to say I'd trample over other people to achieve that. I admit I don't give one lick about the impact on Blizzard's bottom dollar, but should I? If I put in a good 3 months' worth of effort, should I be inhibited from enjoying the game as fully as someone who leaves their subscription running for 2 years with minimal logging in and effort? If the answer is yes, then I think we will never see eye to eye. It would be similar to Blizzard admitting that subs are more important than fun.

    And I'd say it was the 10 month drought of content that made people leave rather than the "easiness" of content, but I wasn't around for that. So I guess in a way, people might have run out of things to do. But with almost a year of no new content, can you blame them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    The worse part of this is the side effect of people just spamming dungeons for rep. People still saw this as a chore, and instead of doing their best they would behave like jackasses, and afk even in dungeons! The plague of that attitude eventually went to LFR as I am sure you noticed. You can pretty much count on 1/5th of your group, whether it being LFR or LFD being afk or useless.
    Are you implying that this isn't happening now, re. the AFKing and jackassery? People are still running heroics for a multitude of reasons. Valor points is probably the top reason, followed closely by gearing. I have experienced this, too. I was trying to watch how the ending of Stormstout Brewery played out, and was kicked out of the group before I could even turn in the quests. I assume they wanted to re-queue to finish hitting more dungeons. But very frustrating since the turn-ins can only be made at the end of the dungeon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    IMO, I prefer it this way. if you want to mindlessly grind reps, you can do it solo. Or like I did, group up and blow through them.

    It might be a good idea to think on the Charms for valor thing. Its not a terrible idea, but they are supposed to be something totally extra, not something you SHOULD have, but something you CAN have.
    I don't mind some reps. I'm actually still doing the Farmville and Cloud Serpents ones, with a bit of Klaxxi but just because I'm a bit curious who the last two guys are. I even did the Lorewalkers one just to see what it was about. Unfortunately, I'm doing the "wrong" reputations because they don't award anything I can use to progress my PVE game. See where this is getting to be a problem?

    The charms sound like they're good, since they supposedly let you loot a boss more than once per week. Though in my extremely short experience, they may as well have been useless since they just gave the infamous 28g bag every time.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    No, I wouldn't do dailies if there wasn't Valor items behind them, if I could sleep through dungeons for them instead.
    Since this is an MMO, I expect to be doing some mundane tasks for a while to unlock them. Why? Because I want those items.
    Previously factions were "mandatory" thanks to i200 shit or helm enchants. Same thing. 'Cept no one had any reason to complain since you easily ramped up those rep bars all while getting other currencies and items from dungeons.

    And yup, gear is a very powerful incentative. It's just that you could do fine without doing a single daily. You'd gimp yourself, of course. Similar to how I don't necessarily cap valor on every character I have every week.

    5.2 factions? Meh. From what I know one's tied to raids and the other uses a similar formula as 5.1. Will they be popular? Or "forced"? Maybe.



    Uh yes, they wanted us to do the 5.0/5.1 dailies, because even if you only do them 1-2 times a week you're set to spend your capped Valor.
    No goddamn Rep Tabards to make players instantly idle in Org/SW after hitting 90. Good for the game as a whole.
    People didn't like it? I'm not sure you're supposed to particularly enjoy daily quests. You do them because you want the rewards.
    They don't let you burn through them by doing 50 dungeons in a day because that burns people out. Allows people to progress too quickly.



    Anyone who merely plays about 2 times a week can progress. Perhaps not cap valor, depending on how they spend their time. So?
    And yeah, without rewards players quit. 4.3 made people bored. And it was obvious. The 7 dungeon-in-an-evening bullshit made people quit because they had nothing meaningful to progress towards. An MMO that cannot provide incentatives will fail.



    Perhaps I will, depends on what they give me.
    Each faction's finest are spearheading the assault: the Kirin-Tor Offensive led by Jaina Proudmoore and the Sunreaver Onslaught led by Lor'themar Theron. Earning reputation with these new factions offers heroes the opportunity to receive new quests and reputation rewards, including powerful items and an intimidating new mount.

    I'm still not going to say remove gear from dailies because I want the game and world to flourish, not funnel people into LFD.
    And with a tiny bit of common sense it's pretty obvious why the game shouldn't let players cap everything for safely queuing.
    I'll continue doing faction quests for gear rewards at my own pace, I don't really have a need for the recipes/mounts.

    PS. Reputation doesn't belong in dungeons because it funnels players into the most convenient "alternative", causing the world to die off.
    But anyway, see you in 5.2 when you're upset because you're not getting Lesser Charms from doing a dungeon? Or because those who do dailies still progress faster than you?
    Reputation absolutely belongs in dugeons because historically YOU COULD ALWAYS GET IT OUT OF DUNGEONS in one fashion or another. Dungeons have ALWAYS BEEN TIED TO REP. Understand? The only dailies with rep were virtually all unimportant. Cosmetic items and vanity crap. That's fine put all that shit behind dailies. Eventually Blizzard will get around to the notion that you can and should reward different playstyles. Hell pet battles give charms now. And yes you may see me back in 5.2. I'm debating it, even if it's only for a month to test out where their taking this. If it's to slow and unrewarding I'm gone again until they get it through their thick fucking heads.

    By saying you won't do dailies because they don't have gear or reward compelling enough, your basically saying you don't care what shit they shovel your way as long as the skinner box is tied behind it. The content is entirely IRELLEVANT to you because your interest is solely in reward.

    The 7 in a week dungeon isn't what made people quit. What made people quit was the lack of fucking updates. Blizzard interpreted the feedback "we want more to do" to mean we want the game to be less rewarding and more grindy on the whole, which just isn't true. One does not equate the other. If it were true than hard dungeons would have been a hit. Hard dungeons functioned as a grind for those who couldn't clear them and for those who were simple lfd queing. Grinding out fail groups until you get a decent one. Now that isn't by any means compelling gameplay except in so far as it's compared to dailies which are even less compelling. In essence providing incentives, to much incentives into a particular type of content just makes that contant MANDATORY and no longer optional. Simple it makes that play style the way the majority of players play the game, in fact that's the precise point of giving them reward. Blizzard can't add reward to an aspect of them game to make people feel like they should do it, to lure them to do it and then turn around (with you and guys on the forums to defend them) and say hey man you shouldn't feel like you have to do it. Why would you add the lure in the first place if you didn't add it to compel people to do the content? It's so fucking bloody obvious that they want you to do it and yes FEEL FORCED to do it. Blizzard acknowledges this on many other levels with many other aspects except for this single one where they decided to hide behind the community and it's narrow definition of FORCED.

    As for logging in a day or two and making progress it simple isn't enough. Even people who log in only a day or two like to think their time is valuable and like to get some where. When you start to tell them that isn't enough, that their 15 dollars and their time isn't rewarding them they will likely leave. Again being bored because your getting nowhere is worse than being bored because you went everywhere to fast and Blizzard can't keep up.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-01-31 at 12:30 AM.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    How is it a thesis when it's a pretty much MMO Development 101? Any MMO developer will tell you that gating to some degree is necessary. Well, assuming they want their game to survive.
    I would say that the main goal of an MMO is to provide fun, while still being paid for it. It would appear that a lot of people are either not having fun doing dailies, or don't want to have to power through them to get to the fun part of the game.

    And seeing as how they're adding back a bit of a rep reward in the next patch for daily dungeons, it seems that they might be backpedaling on their stance.

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    If you're not incited to get reputation for the valor items, then it's simple, don't do it. Just don't complain about not getting rewards.
    Why are we not allowed to complain? It wasn't like this before, and things were going great. If anything, drastic changes like this are the perfect example of times to open discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    But yeah, in WotLK and Cataclysm you could sit in your capital of choice, queued and max out faceless reputations, bet most players in Cata could barely find the factions strongholds.. and it was so much fun hearing people whine about having to do some questlines to unlock the Dragonmaw quartermaster in Twilight Highlands. Luckily Blizzard realized that this is not healthy for the world, it speeds up character progression too much, dungeons offering rep is too generous, and factions lost their meaning.
    I think that might be a bit much hyperbole, since you actually had to do some quests to unlock the factions. And you had to be at friendly and physically at the vendor to even buy the tabard, not to mention coming back to get your rewards.

    And again, seeing that Blizzard is adding reputation back to dungeons, shows they might be having second thoughts on their stance on factions.

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    Frankly I'm quite amazed there's so much controversy regarding dailies. No one but yourselves sets the goals. You feel like you "have to" do all dailies everyday? That's your issue, not Blizzards. Also, how many months of VP capping would it take to buy all "necessary" items once you're revered with the 5.0 - 5.1 ones?

    It's laziness. That's what it is. My first 90 did Golden Lotus maybe 8-10 times in total until he got Revered. How many weeks do you need in order to buy a valor item for each available slot from the GL vendors? 6. You can't do their dailies once every 4-5 days?
    And what do you know, despite faction items taking way longer to purchase than to unlock, Blizzard gave us +100% rep for alts.
    I got an alt to 90 a couple of days ago.. after finishing most of Dread Wastes I was at 4000/21000 REVERED with Klaxxi. Now this took only a day, but it'd take 3 weeks to get Valor to purchase their items.
    C'mon, you really are amazed? Dailies and reputations replacing the old quartermasters, and you're "amazed" about the controversy? And don't even get me started on how even unlocking the reputation levels isn't the end; you still have to have valor points to buy the gear. Like one extra shot to the junk.

    And really? 8-10 times to hit Revered? I did the full rounds three days and I've barely registered a blip on the meter. And this assumes you do them all, every day.

    I don't think I'm lazy, at least not in-game. I just have a low tolerance of mediocrity and being given the run-around. In fact, I just did one more day's worth of Golden Lotus, just for you. I was at 475/6000 Friendly, and gained +1000 rep for doing all of the dailies. Though they gave me the ones in the lake, hate those. Did I mention how camped this place is? Thank god I'm not on a PVP server.

    So, if I do these mind-numbing quests for another 17 days, without missing a beat, I'll gain the privilege of buying gear from them (with Valor points, no less!) and unlocking another two reps to do it all again with. I can hardly contain my excitement. And if I only did them once every 4-5 days, it'd be almost May before I was done. Would any of this gear still be relevant by then?

    And Revered with Klaxxi from just questing? How fortunate for you! This must be with some guild perks, perhaps the account-wide commendation and maybe even playing a human, I'm guessing? I did the entire Dread Wastes area and even a couple of rounds of dailies, and I'm at 4470/12000 Honored. Luckily it was enough to buy the necklace from them, but that's about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    The way I see it, there's some strength in saying dailies are boring and might feel like a chore.. (even though there's absolutely no need whatsoever to do them every day, unless you somehow earn 5000 valor per week.) but I just see this as a lingering 4.3 syndrome. From a time when a non-raider could cap his weekly gain in 2 hours doing 7 dungeons, never setting foot outside his capital. Not because he necessarily preferred it that way, but because it was the simplest.

    This whole debate is a dead horse. Although it has waned as people sucked it up, did dailies now and then and realized they couldn't spend all their accumulated Valor anyway.
    There's the rub, though. We have a weekly limit of valor, yes. We could either hit it with dungeons or grind dailies. Grinding dailies all week might let you hit the cap. What is there, maybe 50 to do with 5 valor a piece? You could cap with 4 to 5 days of dailies. Say a person hit their cap with grinding dungeons instead. But now how are they gonna spend that valor? Grind dailies as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    The dungeon "option" doesn't work, and that's why it was taken out. Players choose the most convenient, rewarding route. Always. Dungeons have plenty of rewards, they shouldn't award rep. I'm highly sceptical of the duct tape fix of giving 1000 rep for a couple of instances. Players will still cry about having to do dailies to "max" rep per day or to get lesser charms which they of course MUST have.
    It doesn't? It sure seemed to keep me and my old guild busy for a good majority of Wrath, and provided some modicum of fun during my short stay in Cataclysm. But then I must be misinterpreting what I thought was "fun"; thank goodness Blizzard has been able to correct me on this more often these days.

    I've run dungeons as much as one could expect. The only other way for me to gear up to meet the next LFR requirement seems to be reps, though I'm open to suggestions. And seeing as I'd rather gouge out my eyeballs (or just play some other game) than do rep grinds for the next month or two, there's really not much else for me to do.

    Charms are nice, and it would be much more preferable to offer them through a non-daily fashion. But to me they just seem like glorified slot machine tokens. Not to knock on those who do want them.

    What I would like to see:
    • Bring back the Valor quartermaster with gear good enough to meet the latest LFR requirements (470 right now, so I guess 476 gear)
    • Make items from reputation vendors only cost gold, not valor points

    Then people trying to do LFR won't have to do dailies, people who want to do dailies to gear up can do so, and it won't be prohibitively expensive to buy the gear once you do earn Exalted. Dailies would no longer be the only venue to gear up, but would still exist for casual players to take advantage of. And for those worried that we'd gear up too fast, the dungeons still won't give out rep and we still have the 1000 Valor point cap to worry about. And no more lame dailies!

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by anotherkeith View Post
    I'm one of those oft maligned "casual" gamers. I usually only get to play maybe two hours a day and sometimes go several days without playing at all. I have reached exalted with all the MoP factions and even completed the Operation: Shieldwall a few weeks ago.
    I play the same way. I'm not even revered with any yet and havent started Shieldwall. The time available to me allows me to complete only one faction's dailies on a given day. I also run one scenario, or a heroic, or LFR. If i was to continue to play this way i'd hit exalted some months from now.

  16. #236
    Mechagnome Time Sage's Avatar
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    I don't see any forced grinding. You CHOSE to do the rep to get those peices of gear. You can get equal or better gear from raids.

  17. #237
    Epic! chaosjones's Avatar
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    ohh another i'm mad cause i have to farm rep to buy valor gear whine whine whine.

    Use your valor to upgrade your current pieces grind dungeons until full 463 use justice to upgrade that gear.

    Use that gear to do normal mode. its not hard and there is plenty of guilds looking for raiders and don't care they are undergeared since msv is faceroll now.

    Also unless you dident do quest in dread waste you should be honered with klaxii and can buy neck from them. thats a pretty good boost to your ilvl.

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  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I laugh at anyone who calls dailies a rep grind, I played FFXI for 7 years so I know what a real grind is. Asian MMO's focus on the grind and they actually make you work for hours on end for the benefits that they give you. Anyone kicking puppies over having to do *random* dailies for 5-15 minutes a day for 2-3 weeks really just looks infantile to me.

    False. I could just go to Selbina with bags full of boyahda moss and get my fame up with multiple factions in less than a few hours.

    Hah. I know what you mean tho.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I laugh at anyone who calls dailies a rep grind, I played FFXI for 7 years so I know what a real grind is. Asian MMO's focus on the grind and they actually make you work for hours on end for the benefits that they give you. Anyone kicking puppies over having to do *random* dailies for 5-15 minutes a day for 2-3 weeks really just looks infantile to me.
    We're talking about US players in the US market, not an Asian grindfest.

    The daily grind takes 1-2 hours per day in MoP on your first level 90 toon though, not 5-15 minutes.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 06:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    Saying you aren't forced is a horrible argument, and I'm guessing the developers have realized this as well. Eventually it leads to the realization that you aren't forced to play wow and thus people leave.
    You are EXACTLY right. I don't know what it is with Blizzard but they seem to get one thing totally back-asswards every new expansion. In MoP, it was making a bunch of tedious stuff "optional" and calling that "choices."

    What motivates people to play the game is when you have a whole bunch of FUN stuff to do and not enough time to get it done.

    What demotivates people is wanting to play, and having to choose between a bunch of UNFUN options.

    I don't understand how a company that's so experienced in delivering a popular game continues to make boners like dailies in MoP and "dungeons are hard" in Cata.

  20. #240
    Herald of the Titans theredviola's Avatar
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    I'm rather neutral about it. If all the reps were on par with the Cloud Serpent grind, I wouldn't mind.

    But they're not.

    And most of them are gated behind the Golden Lotus. If they weren't, I'd enjoy them more.

    But they're not.

    I just hope that with 5.2 coming and work orders, I'll actually be able to bring myself to finish Golden Lotus. But until then, it'll continue to feel tedious and like my quests don't effect my rep gains when I only see "+110 rep" on my screen.
    "Do not only practice your art, but force yourself into its secrets, for it and knowledge can raise men to the divine." -- Ludwig Van Beethoven

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