There is no "forced" grinding and it robs the discussion of merit to phrase in that way.
People who think this game is for leveling alts are the ones who feel this way. They seem to think this game is their game with their attitude.
There is no "forced" grinding and it robs the discussion of merit to phrase in that way.
People who think this game is for leveling alts are the ones who feel this way. They seem to think this game is their game with their attitude.
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Got my warrior lvl90 a while ago but my progression gear wise hit the wall. Unlucky with first two lfr drops and really cba to grind same rep again that i did on my mage that is my main. Even tho they made those rep items to make it easier but i just cant get myself to grind rep anymore. Making rep account wide would be awesome for altoholics like me but i doubt that will ever happen.
If you're intending to raid starting with normal modes, you certainly don't need valor gear. But that's not the point. The point is that things other than gear are stuck behind those grinds, and there is no way to gain rep other than those god damn dailies.
Ya my buddy hasn't worked any rep up and hes more than raid geared... sure if you want certain items from the reps you should have to do something for it.
personally the shado pan mounts are worth it
They have said there is valor gear in 5.2 which isn't attached to dailies. They aren't retroactively removing the gear previously attached to dailies, you still need the rep for those pieces.
They have also said they are adding another daily faction in 5.2 so it's not like the ship has sailed on dailies.
As for people who say "amg I don't want to grind dailies on my alt"... it took my second 90 3 days of Shadopan dailies to hit revered, 1 day of Klaxxi dailies to hit revered, 5 days of Golden Lotus to hit revered. Dominance Offensive and AC I hadn't done previously so I skipped.
Not exactly like "grinding" it up will take you long.
People need to get over the fact that the content they have access to is proportional to the time spent playing. if you are only playing once a twice a week for 2-3 hours, and not willing to invest this time in doing a bit of farming (dailys, farm golds to buy or craft gear, getting valor), you gear progression will be very slow. FACE IT, raising reps as of now can be done even if you do 20 minutes of dailies a day. Sure it will take several weeks or months to get any meaningful progression achieved on your character, but this is the way it SHOULD be.
This is an MMO, and even if one pays as much as anyone else, if player A plays 4 hours a week, player B 2 evenings, and player C 5 evenings a week; A will most likely never see the end of the first tier of an expansion, B might progress more through tiers, and there's a good chance C will be able to kill the final boss by the time the next expansion is up.
If A is not happy with the way things are, he either invests more time or moves on to another game, more suited to his playstyle.
Bottom line is, this is an MMORPG: if you want more, or want it faster, play more and invest more in the game. Otherwise you have to accept that you progression will be slower than other who put in more time than you. People complaining about the game being grindy just want more without dedicating themselve to get it. Let's face it, anything can and will be called a grind by some, if it is not trivial to get completed.
MoP, for all its features that should have been improvements, and all of the many different things that COULD have been fun, just isn't any fun for me right now.
What Blizzard has done is aimed the game at hardcore organized players, and told us "hardcore casuals" (I'm sure I've played 100 hours in a week before...) to get fucked. I had a fun time the first week or two maxing out all my professions and leveling a couple of toons to 90, but I pretty much brickwalled at that point. The only thing I do now is run LFR. I despise the dailies-unlocking-more-dailies mechanism. It doesn't give me a feeling of progress; it gives me a feeling of being handcuffed. The 5-mans, there's no reason to run them. Scenarios, fun occasionally, as long as you don't get one of the horrible ones. Brawler's Guild? Ehhh I've run it a little on my priest but it doesn't seem to float my boat.
The game is suppose to give me a food pellet when I press a lever. But all the pellets taste like broccoli.
I had a theory that I didn't like the dailies in 5.0, because it felt like I was playing a different game, and I was right. In 5.1 Horde and Alliance are in Pandaria in full force and I haven't had any problems doing dailies now. Weird how that works. I'm fine with obtaining valor gear through rep factions now.
Now you see it. Now you don't.
They are making changes to the current daily system (something I said if its gets a negative enough reaction things get changed)
Looking forward to the new stuff in 5.2 it might make the game a bit more alt friendly for some people.
Grinds are one aspect of MMORPGs, there's nothing wrong with it. It's one style of gameplay that some people enjoy. It rewards you for persistence over a long period of time and optimizing grind efficiency, and those rewards should be meaningful. Meaningful rewards are ones that are powerful or desirable and that you cannot get any other way. Unfortunately, many people take the existence of a meaningful reward as Blizzard "forcing" them to do something.
---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 11:18 AM ----------
Paragraphed wall of text incoming
I do not find dailies to be particularly fun, but I want the reward. That's how MMOs work. I usually do dailies while queued for dungeons anyway. Keeping me ingame and not alt-tabbed until I hear the sound that a queue popped.
But yes, they're adding "alternatives", by funneling people into dungeons which were already lucrative for an alt, or someone who needs JP/VP.
What will it fix exactly? Those who complain about dailies, or rather, the idea that they can't cap quickly without leaving the capital, will just start bitching about not getting Lesser Charms or that those who do dailies will still earn 1500-2000 more rep per day than they do. Hence why I called it a bad duct tape fix.
People are free to complain, though I personally think it's stupid to complain about core MMO mechanics. There's rewards behind work, you decide whether, and how, you want to achieve those goals.Why are we not allowed to complain? It wasn't like this before, and things were going great. If anything, drastic changes like this are the perfect example of times to open discussion.
Friendly didn't require more than actually leveling tbh. Blizzard is too generous. And again, this fix won't actually accomplish anything for those who think they should be able to "choose" dungeons to easily and quickly get items for raids. There's already plenty of posts from people who regard the 1dung/scen fix to be "yet another chore". I'm assuming you and Toni aren't amongst those.I think that might be a bit much hyperbole, since you actually had to do some quests to unlock the factions. And you had to be at friendly and physically at the vendor to even buy the tabard, not to mention coming back to get your rewards.
And again, seeing that Blizzard is adding reputation back to dungeons, shows they might be having second thoughts on their stance on factions.
And since it doesn't please those who think they need to max out, there's minimum gain for those who think the daily system is bad, but it will have tremendous effects on the game as a whole. As I said, players choose the most convenient rewarding route. Until now there were no "alternative" to reputation so they did the dailies anyway. Why? because they feel like they must unlock every valor items asap, which I have repeatedly said isn't needed due to the cap on valor.
So what will this "fix" accomplish. Players who want to gain rep at a reasonable pace will do it through dungeons that already reward currencies and items.
Players who want to max their daily possible gain will see it as another chore.
And the world will see a big loss of players. Because they don't need to be there.
Sure, advocate "choice", but it's not a choice if you're stupid for doing one of them. Why would I do dailies if I can get rep from being alt-tabbed in a capital?
It's not like I need to earn 3000 rep per day anyway.
I'm amazed because I thought 4.3 would teach us that it's a bad idea to let such a convenient option such as LFD to be so lucrative.C'mon, you really are amazed? Dailies and reputations replacing the old quartermasters, and you're "amazed" about the controversy? And don't even get me started on how even unlocking the reputation levels isn't the end; you still have to have valor points to buy the gear. Like one extra shot to the junk.
And really? 8-10 times to hit Revered? I did the full rounds three days and I've barely registered a blip on the meter. And this assumes you do them all, every day.
And that players are upset because they "need" to do some monotonous tasks in an MMO, a genre that literally survives by not letting their players cap too quickly.
Once you hit honored you start earning over 1500 rep per day. neutral to revered needs maybe 12, not 8-10 sets of dailies. Well I'm pretty sure I was about 2000/3000 Friendly at the time I unlocked the dailies. Then as you reach honored you get another set of dailies speeding up the daily gain.
If you choose to do them every 4-5 days it might take until mid April. My intial calcs were 6 weeks (due to needing about 6k valor to buy the 3 items) divided by 8, which was perhaps a bit too optimistic (I'd say 12-13 now). Regardless, once you've done it once, it takes half the time.I don't think I'm lazy, at least not in-game. I just have a low tolerance of mediocrity and being given the run-around. In fact, I just did one more day's worth of Golden Lotus, just for you. I was at 475/6000 Friendly, and gained +1000 rep for doing all of the dailies. Though they gave me the ones in the lake, hate those. Did I mention how camped this place is? Thank god I'm not on a PVP server.
So, if I do these mind-numbing quests for another 17 days, without missing a beat, I'll gain the privilege of buying gear from them (with Valor points, no less!) and unlocking another two reps to do it all again with. I can hardly contain my excitement. And if I only did them once every 4-5 days, it'd be almost May before I was done. Would any of this gear still be relevant by then?
Everything but Human. And you're halfway to revered without the commendation and a couple of dailies? Not bad, just 3-4 more times, when you wish, and you're set. By this time you could also be spending Valor on GL too anyway.And Revered with Klaxxi from just questing? How fortunate for you! This must be with some guild perks, perhaps the account-wide commendation and maybe even playing a human, I'm guessing? I did the entire Dread Wastes area and even a couple of rounds of dailies, and I'm at 4470/12000 Honored. Luckily it was enough to buy the necklace from them, but that's about it.
I'm not saying getting rep without bonuses are particularly quick, or so much fun, but if they are such a pain, stop doing them.
Why would anyone try to cap using dailies? Really. I get maybe 100-200 rep per week from those. You get 80 followed by 40 from dungeons. LFRs give 90.There's the rub, though. We have a weekly limit of valor, yes. We could either hit it with dungeons or grind dailies. Grinding dailies all week might let you hit the cap. What is there, maybe 50 to do with 5 valor a piece? You could cap with 4 to 5 days of dailies. Say a person hit their cap with grinding dungeons instead. But now how are they gonna spend that valor? Grind dailies as well?
I've run dungeons as much as one could expect. The only other way for me to gear up to meet the next LFR requirement seems to be reps, though I'm open to suggestions. And seeing as I'd rather gouge out my eyeballs (or just play some other game) than do rep grinds for the next month or two, there's really not much else for me to do.
Once you hit 470, which could be attained by no more than 2-3 valor items, you're set. That'a half the valor cap from LFR.
WotLK kept non-raiders busy by making gearing alts a piece of cake. Players were stoked about getting TIER GEAR from farming AoE dungeons. Something that BC sure didn't provide. Once I had my t9 and some shitty weapon from the ICC 5mans I leveled another alt. Didn't raid at the time. Had no real reason to leave Dalaran really.It doesn't? It sure seemed to keep me and my old guild busy for a good majority of Wrath, and provided some modicum of fun during my short stay in Cataclysm. But then I must be misinterpreting what I thought was "fun"; thank goodness Blizzard has been able to correct me on this more often these days.
Charms are nice, and it would be much more preferable to offer them through a non-daily fashion. But to me they just seem like glorified slot machine tokens. Not to knock on those who do want them.
This WOULD make gearing too fast. Not what Blizzard wants. Players might enjoy it for a short while until the rewards outside of raids become negligible.What I would like to see:
- Bring back the Valor quartermaster with gear good enough to meet the latest LFR requirements (470 right now, so I guess 476 gear)
- Make items from reputation vendors only cost gold, not valor points
Then people trying to do LFR won't have to do dailies, people who want to do dailies to gear up can do so, and it won't be prohibitively expensive to buy the gear once you do earn Exalted. Dailies would no longer be the only venue to gear up, but would still exist for casual players to take advantage of. And for those worried that we'd gear up too fast, the dungeons still won't give out rep and we still have the 1000 Valor point cap to worry about. And no more lame dailies!
I ask again, if you can gear through dungeons, why would anyone leave the cities?
It's frankly quite hard to advocate because it's a necessary evil. The game doesn't flourish when the world is devoid of 90s who don't need to be there.
I hope the extra gain and lesser charms will keep the world alive, but right now I'm worried we're going back to Cataclysm, just because some players couldn't grasp how much they could throttle their "daily chore" without missing a single piece.
Same reason they're not adding new 5mans with improved loot. They're preserving the progression. 5.0 factions will remain relevant for a long time. This is a good thing. Figured we didn't need another valor item daily faction yet. Or maybe we won't see one at all. We don't need it. Doesn't mean they're going to offer the 5.0/1 valor items without helping the faction.My apologies. let me rephrase. THE DEVELOPERS HAVE REMOVED RELEVANT OR CURRENT VALOR GEAR FROM DAILY QUEST GRINDING. Is that better? Fuck dailies and the rep and the gear associated with them. Add this to the fact that dungeons and scenarios are NOW GIVING REP AS WELL, it should suggest that the developers are also not entirely thrilled with the dailies and the feed back received from them.
Last edited by MasterHamster; 2013-01-31 at 01:21 PM.
5:2 diet? Pft!
Weight lost since 21st of June: 57kg/~125lb
---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 08:44 AM ----------
You are right, things will keep changing. Because the lazy part of the playerbase has more money. They want farmville, they will get it. They want to log in and be allowed to do whatever they want with little cost or effort. 'The market has passed' Again, why not just find a game that better suits you? If you didn't like the vanilla style of dungeons at all, why the hell did you do them? BRD didn't take that long once you knew the path to take. You're also being a little dishonest because you are suggested that ALL dungeons were 2-3 or that ALL dungeons were as big as BRD. Thats not true.
"I DEMAND EVERYTHING CHANGE FOR ME! I HAVE THE MONEY!!!!" Again, find a game you actually enjoy, instead of changing everything about one that people were already enjoying.
---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 09:02 AM ----------
[QUOTE=puppypizza;20047903]I'm sorry, but you are probably different than most of the masses. If seeing content is all you care about, what I said doesn't really apply to you. Alas, you are also a minority.I do not care about gear. I'd do the raids naked if I could. The only aspect in which I "care" about gear is how it's required to get into Heart of Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring. If I met the requirement to enter those raids, we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation. I'd bum a ride out of another guild if I could, but the Normal requirements are likely even stiffer than the LFR one. I'd even dare say that I could probably beat out the DPS of many other people sitting at a 470 average, considering that I was above the halfway point of DPS just on my first LFR with just heroic gear.
I want to do the raid. I haven't watched videos on it, though I have read the dungeon journals many times. I want to see them played out on my computer screen and experience them first-hand, and I want it to be a surprise. If I could do it just once, then I'd be perfectly satisfied.
If my "reliance" on gear to see content is the same as "caring about" gear, then so be it. In that case, yes, I do "care" about gear. Up to the point where I can just shard or delete it once it gets me past the front gate of those raids. If LFR is meant for casuals, and dailies are not mandatory, then they must be expecting a lot of patience from a player.
Here is the timeline for me. I hit 90 on my Pally. Did only dailies. After dailies were done for the day which took little to no time when grouped, I leveled a Lock. My Lock quickly hit 90 and I only used crafted/heroic/scenario/quest gear. My Lock could get into HoF quicker due to better drops in MSV I guess. I did not record the actual days this took, but it wasn't long.Out of curiosity, how long did it take for your second 90 to become eligible for all LFR raids? In calendar days and in-game time. My current character has 38 hours spent at level 90, which is spread out about 2 weeks. And not that I don't believe you, but how did you pass the 470 requirement with heroic and scenario rewards, when they only award at best 463 gear?
I just checked the auction house for upgrades like you suggested earlier, but there are only chestpieces and gloves (which are absurdly priced, by the way, but I don't count that as a limiting factor). So now I'm at 464. What do I do now?
Effort should be rewarded. But I do not see how this question is really relevant to this convo.Ok, maybe this is where we differ. I play a game for me, though that's not to say I'd trample over other people to achieve that. I admit I don't give one lick about the impact on Blizzard's bottom dollar, but should I? If I put in a good 3 months' worth of effort, should I be inhibited from enjoying the game as fully as someone who leaves their subscription running for 2 years with minimal logging in and effort? If the answer is yes, then I think we will never see eye to eye. It would be similar to Blizzard admitting that subs are more important than fun.
The game being easier and quicker is relevant. If they made challenging content, instead of stuff you could breeze past, you would be required to play more/longer to get through the content. If you can hit 85 in a couple of days, afk through 4.3 heroics and then just afk in LFR, you will be maxed on gear and be bored in no time.And I'd say it was the 10 month drought of content that made people leave rather than the "easiness" of content, but I wasn't around for that. So I guess in a way, people might have run out of things to do. But with almost a year of no new content, can you blame them?
Its only a problem if you weren't enjoying your time spent in the game. Again, making it all about material gear rewards is a bad attitude. I did tons of things in vanilla just to help friends and see the world. I just can't understand this motivation of gear gear gear.I don't mind some reps. I'm actually still doing the Farmville and Cloud Serpents ones, with a bit of Klaxxi but just because I'm a bit curious who the last two guys are. I even did the Lorewalkers one just to see what it was about. Unfortunately, I'm doing the "wrong" reputations because they don't award anything I can use to progress my PVE game. See where this is getting to be a problem?
If you just got gear every time, you would blow through this game as quick as a single player rpg like Skyrim.The charms sound like they're good, since they supposedly let you loot a boss more than once per week. Though in my extremely short experience, they may as well have been useless since they just gave the infamous 28g bag every time.
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---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 09:04 AM ----------
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Did I mention no more dailies for gear is the best thing ever? It's like they pulled their heads out of their asses and saw the fucking light.
Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-01-31 at 03:23 PM.
Like I said, what is good is having too many options that you WANT to do.
What is not good is having only options that you DON'T want to do.
To me, a non-raid pattern on a vendor is something I am "forced" to do. But I hate the GL dailies and the 100 rep per quest grind so much that I haven't bothered. This design doesn't enrich the game for me. Instead, it spoils it.
Part of what people aren't getting here is maybe the environment that people are playing in. If you are on vent with some pals, possibly IRL pals, possibly with beer or stoned off your ass, doing dailies in a group might actually be enjoyable. If you are on a low-pop server and your guild has more or less ceased to function, like mine, and you have to solo all those Mogu, well, I can't see how that would be fun. It's not for me.
---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 09:19 AM ----------
Playing a mmo is all about what you want to do. Want is everything in this genre. You set goals of what you spend your time in the game on and pursue them. You do these things because you want to. If people want the mounts/gear/achievements/whatever then by game design Blizzard have forced people to do daily quests. Read any post from Blizzard about this and they openly admit they have went this route for the simple reason to extend content. They know people eat up this stuff. They collect mounts/gear/achievements/whatever and even tho they are locked behind weeks of pointless boring busy work then people will suck it up. That does not mean they have to like it. They are in the end forced to do them to achieve their goals.
I'm a Forsaken. I kill firstborns while their mamas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even, when I feel like it, rip the souls from little girls, and from now till kingdom come, the only thing you can count on in your existence is never understanding why.
I got 463 in all slots in a week on my alt shammy then went to raid finder and got 2 items. Didn't raise my Ilvl worth a shit I had to spend 3k gold and get 1750 valor to get enough gear to get into HOF and Terrace LFR it is a bitch. I hate quests in general always have always will, my favorite part of this game will has always been dungeons and raiding but with having a family now the raiding part is lessened quite a bit. The new LFR loot system is bull shit the 28g 50s you are almost guaranteed to get is just a fucking slap in the face Id rather get nothing than that small amount of gold.
I miss the old system where you could trade to other players I got 8 pieces of gear in one LFR on my Pally back in Cata it was sweet. Now after running through all 5 parts of LFR this week I got 0 items. and Valor is worthless so IDK what the point of even playing my alts are. Not to mention the amount of time it takes to level alts which is easily 3 times as long as in cata. Im not an achievement farmer I could care less about them, only ones I care about have a title or reward attached to them, so I say give me a damn tabard so I can do what I enjoy and progress my characters as well.
---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 10:32 AM ----------
I looked at the rewards and realized the gear was shit and poorly itemized for most classes and that the LFR gear was in 95% of the cases better also. I just hate it, the I should do daily's is always in the back of my mind and I think why I will inevitably quit this xpac. There is no drive to level my alts which was my favorite thing to do in previous expansions playing alts kept me sane. I need diversity in my play style to have fun that is why I have different characters now I have them just sitting there at 85 with their professions maxed out and no reason to level them.
The devs say it in every blue post, they have to account for the millions of people who play this game. Because unlike the players, they don't want anyone who is unhappy to unsub and find another game. They want our money every month. So they can earn it by making a game worth the $15.
Paying $15 a month to log on and only have time to do a bunch of frigging daily quests by myself, that ain't gonna fly. THankfully they have RIGHTLY removed valor gear from daily quest rep. The new dailies won't be the source of all the valor gear in the game like the poorly designed opening set of MOP dailies. Combined that with increasing the ways to get elder charms, upping LFR drops, and a LFR wipe-buff, will truly make the gear behind those dailies unnecessary as it should have been in the first place.
I feel certain we will see further increases to old LFR drops because the devs seem to have released that keeping old content relevant is simply too time consuming for people with Alts but this doesn't gel with their no-catch-up mechanics philosophy this x-pac.
It's also really worrying that Blizzard's reaction to people having nothing to do was to simply add a buncha of fluff crap like daily quests and then slow down how players can progress, rather then spending some of that bling to make more game
Last edited by Mordredofmia; 2013-02-01 at 03:53 PM.