Forced rep grinding? A plus or minus in MoP

[Conscious]

No facerolling your way into epics this time.

Could've fooled me.

[Keoren]

Nothing in MoP is gated unreasonably. I'm actually bored because I don't have anything left to do besides log on for raids and cap valor at the end of the week.

So you would have less things to do if the valor gear was separated from the reputations? How so?

Klaxx was honored just by questing through the zone, and GL honored took about 3 days of dailies. As a raider, you then had 6 weeks of raiding and those few rep gear items, along with crafting, LFR, SoA to get gear.

Unless I remember wrong, the valor items required revered and exalted in the beginning of the expansion. This was soon changed to honored and revered, which was a good thing.

After 6 weeks, was there a chance that there was an upgrade on the AC or SP vendors? sure, always a chance, but not very likely, and more than likely you would be upgrading only an LFR item to a Rep item.

Mogu'shan Vaults loot tables did not have an item for every slot for any of the classes. I'm confident in saying that most of our raiders were using reputation items six weeks into the raid content.

The fallacy in your argument is that you make it sound like as soon as you unlock a rep vendor, you can just buy everything. The VP cap kicks those vendors so far down the timetable that unless you have obscenely bad RNG and refuse to do SoA, LFR and buy BOEs.. they shouldn´t even be part of the debate.

I think it's you who is reading that part into my posts. Also, see my previous note about the loot tables and people still needing items from the vendors at that point.

If we agree that VP gear is only a short-term thing for raiders. Then we can agree that it is mainly in place for non-raiders. If you remove Dailies as part of the equation for rep gear, then you basically have wotlk, where non-raiders do nothing but grind heroic dungeons. I personally like it the way it is now, for non-raiders, you need to do a mix of things.. heroics, lfr, dailies and scenerios.

But are the dailies a good way of gating the items? I am willing to argue that they aren't and that there are better and more exciting alternatives.

If the reputation requirements are there to fill a void in lacking interesting content, that is a game design issue and the gating is a band-aid fix.

But the biggest reason we can´t have a real debate about this is because of the hyperbole that goes on regarding dailes. The FACT is you only have to do one faction at a time, and you can even skip a lot of days and STILL not have enough valor points to keep up with the items you are unlocking to buy.

I think this is a sub-topic that hasn't really been touched. It doesn't change that the players would still have to grind them at some point in the near future.

Domination point is the perfect example. I hated doing the quests where you had to go inside the ruins/cave area. So when they showed up, I simply didn´t do them. I also didn´t really like the ones where you had to go into the enemies stronghold.. so most of the time I skipped those too. So basically I was doing that faction a little more than half the days I could. Even at that pace, I was still waiting on VP to buy the trinkets... I was revered long before I could buy them.

Yes, that is a better scenario than pressuring you into doing content you don't enjoy.

[Conscious]

Nothing in MoP is gated unreasonably. I'm actually bored because I don't have anything left to do besides log on for raids and cap valor at the end of the week.

If that was truly the case, you wouldn't be seeing the commendation boosts or the heroic and scenario reps.

Besides, who're you to define 'unreasonable'?

[Scot]

because if they uncapped it, then a ton of people would feel even more obligated to do it. It was the same reason the original pvp system did not work. You shouldn´t have to play ungodly amounts of hours to keep up.

More time in = more/better rewards is what wow should always be about.

[Mimi-KT]

Rep Grinding has been a staple of MMO's since back in my Everquest days.

[Knightmare]

Obligatory "you're not forced to do them."

Anyway, assuming that you want to do the factions but not the dailies, it seems that Blizzard's working on ways to work that out. Some factions (Order of the Cloud Serpent, for example) have non-daily ways to earn rep, though the amount given is usually enough for a bonus to dailies rather than an alternative. Items were added in 5.1 that made the trip from revered to exalted much faster, and any other rep grinds for that faction on other characters twice as fast. 5.2 will have a pretty hefty rep gain for the faction of your choice by the first dungeon and scenario of the day, as well as a somewhat small bonus amount of rep (300, I think) for at most two factions of your choice for daily work orders on Sunsong, which can be done as long as you're exalted with the Tillers.

By the time 5.2 is released, I'd say that there's no excuse at all to feel forced to do dailies if you don't want to do them.

[Azrile]

So you would have less things to do if the valor gear was separated from the reputations? How so?



Unless I remember wrong, the valor items required revered and exalted in the beginning of the expansion. This was soon changed to honored and revered, which was a good thing.



Mogu'shan Vaults loot tables did not have an item for every slot for any of the classes. I'm confident in saying that most of our raiders were using reputation items six weeks into the raid content.



I think it's you who is reading that part into my posts. Also, see my previous note about the loot tables and people still needing items from the vendors at that point.



But are the dailies a good way of gating the items? I am willing to argue that they aren't and that there are better and more exciting alternatives.

If the reputation requirements are there to fill a void in lacking interesting content, that is a game design issue and the gating is a band-aid fix.



I think this is a sub-topic that hasn't really been touched. It doesn't change that the players would still have to grind them at some point in the near future.



Yes, that is a better scenario than pressuring you into doing content you don't enjoy.

6 weeks into the raid, your guildmates had 7000 VP max. That means they probably could have bought 4 rep items. Which is exactly like I said, those 4 items would come from honored Klaxxi and GL, and then one of those to revered. In 7 week, you would have to raise either Klaxxi OR GL to Revered, that is all.

My problem with this stupidity is you using the word ´grind´ to explain doing probably 10 days worth of dailies over the course of 7 weeks.

[Chry]

Well seeing as it made me quit I'd say it's a minus.

[Screwtape]

This is like quitting Chick-Fila because you're mad they're offering you a slice of cheese for 25 cents.

[Banzhe]

Kind of late but yeah. This game is becoming a very chores logging in.

Also blizz noticed theres a problem with alts gearing up this expac as well.... just because of how slow and painful the grind can be in general.

Blizzard noticed?- sure they did, once all the babies started creating quadruple of the same salty tear threads on public about how unfair life is when they can't triple dip through the click of a button!

OT; I wouldn't worry to much, blizzard have already announced that they will return to the click-button-receive-bacon mode from 5.2

[slime]

This is like quitting Chick-Fila because you're mad they're offering you a slice of cheese for 25 cents.

I guess you could say that, but you'd have to add that they are offering you 'The Best' piece of cheese for 0.25, and if you say no then they say well your only other option is this not-as-good piece of cheese.

[thunderdragon2]

The people willing to work for them. Clearly this thread is about wanting them for nothing.

this is about not having to farm unnecessary factions for them, gl revered shouldn't have been a necessary requirement to get them

[Veliladon]

I guess you could say that, but you'd have to add that they are offering you 'The Best' piece of cheese for 0.25, and if you say no then they say well your only other option is this not-as-good piece of cheese.

It's more like Chick-Fila changing the price of a piece of cheese from 25 cents to a kick in the nuts. You're still willing to pay the 25 cents but you'd rather not be kicked in the balls.

Then everyone claims a kick in the balls is integral to the chicken sandwich buying system despite a few years ago they found out that customers didn't really like being kicked in the nuts.

[thunderdragon2]

Its not about getting it for free. Its about getting it at your own pace. If I want to do 10 heroics a day, why cant I get valor for all of them? I'm constantly VP capped in a maximum of 48 hours after maintenance. I do most factions dailies every day for maybe a max of 20 min per faction. Why can't I spend 3 hours grinding rep for them and get 9 times the rep? Why does the content have to be artificially gated by a low rep/day cap and VP/week cap?

this is so true in wrath and cata i could do what ever way of rep grinding i wanted and do it at my own pace

i wanted to do some dailies 1 day i done them
i wanted to do heroics the next day i got my vp cap and a decent amount of rep for it

now if i want rep

i MUST do dailies which give very little rep (start of mop)
randoms only gave a decent amount of vp for the 1st one each day


see where i'm going with this blizzard removed the ability for us to set our own pace after we hit 90

[Ruffles]

Since when is Blizzard forcing you to do stuff in WoW? I still don't get it why people are using the word "Force" or "Forcing us". It's a game, and you play it by Blizzard's rules, not yours.

Reputation grinding was maybe mandatory at the start because there were fewer items compared to today. You have LFR + Normal raids to start with, there's a lot more gear now. Gear upgrade is for those who don't know how to spend their Valor Points.

[Kaleredar]

this is so true in wrath and cata i could do what ever way of rep grinding i wanted and do it at my own pace

i wanted to do some dailies 1 day i done them
i wanted to do heroics the next day i got my vp cap and a decent amount of rep for it

now if i want rep

i MUST do dailies which give very little rep (start of mop)
randoms only gave a decent amount of vp for the 1st one each day


see where i'm going with this blizzard removed the ability for us to set our own pace after we hit 90

You don't have to do dailies every day, no one is forcing you.

You can run LFR for loot, and normal raids were tuned to be doable in heroic dungeon gear anyway. The only issue, as gearing up via dailies isn't necessary, is setting your own pace for "going through the rep for the rep's sake," in which case the answer is very simple: it's blizzards game, and they set the pace. Either you want the rep done, or you don't want the rep done. You either do the work required, or you don't.

[hyphnos]

Rep Grinding has been a staple of MMO's since back in my Everquest days.

I started playing EQ during Planes of Power and played through Secrets of Faydwer and outside of then outdated content, there were no reputations grinds that were remotely connected to player advancement.

Yes you could change your faction so you could not get killed by guards in various places but reputation didn't matter a bit. So EQ had tossed rep out before WoW was even launced.

Something being common in games over 10 years ago doesn't mean putting them in a game today is a positive change. Blizzard has backpedeled on the rep grinds twice now and there are basically only 2 reasons they would have after so adamantly supporting it at Mists launch: either 1) people aren't doing it or 2) people are quitting over it.

In either case, you won't see another grind like 5.0 until they've had time to forget it was a mistake again.

[thunderdragon2]

You don't have to do dailies every day, no one is forcing you.

You can run LFR for loot, and normal raids were tuned to be doable in heroic dungeon gear anyway. The only issue, as gearing up via dailies isn't necessary, is setting your own pace for "going through the rep for the rep's sake," in which case the answer is very simple: it's blizzards game, and they set the pace. Either you want the rep done, or you don't want the rep done. You either do the work required, or you don't.

i don't any more i do them 2 days a week for charms but that's what it was like at the start of mop compared to say the start of cata
also i now got the desired rep points i want on each char.

but what you quoted is what i fell at the beginning of cata and the beginning of mop, these rep changes are too late for me unless i want cap all my mop factions at exalted on each char, but it will help others. also dose any1 know if these changes will work for each member of the tillers

[sTyLnK]

A main having to do all the factions is hell if you want to get things faster, but at the same time once you do, it makes faction grinds so much faster for alts. IE if you have an alt that has enchanting and you want the plans from the different factions. Maybe a week, if that. Small price to pay iMO.

[Masterpd85]

I love it, adds so much depth to the game.

No facerolling your way into epics this time. Don't like it? You'll be stuck in blues forever, and that's where you belong.

as much of a douche comment this is, I half way agree.

Back in cata the facerolling, elbow mashing, pally players from wrath got a rude awakening when the paladin class changed... and they complained. (helped separate the fails from the rest).

This sort of does the same and I agree only on the facerolling part because epics have been falling like candy for awhile now and its nice to see casuals having to work like us raiders do. IMHO thats why they are there as rep rewards because u can get higher shit from raiding anyways, those rep rewards are alternative epics that you have to really work for.... they aint free this time around!