Forced rep grinding? A plus or minus in MoP

[Leonard McCoy]

Dude.... I say that only once now...
Either tame your temper and drop your insulting language or I will definitely report your out of line comments....
To the topic, re-read what we telling you. We both have clearly separated Reputable quests and Dailies. We provided the timelines for it multiple times, you don't have to correct us on stuff we've already said before.
And to AD. true. you could get items from 5 mans... But those 5 mans weren't exactly walk in the park kinda deals. They required hours to run, unlike the 15 minute blast throughs of today's 5 mans. And in case of Stratholm, that was even a raid at some point and changed to 5 mans.
The point stands... Grind back throughout WoW's history was incomparable harder, and a lot more time consuming. And yet almost all the factions yielded gear or items that helped crafting gear, or make it better.
Thorium Brotherhood stops with out of Raid progression at some point.... Then the only way to raise it was/is either the super rare hearts of the mountain from mining, or the cores which are dropping in Molten Core...

I have a wish that I sometime hope will come true but really don't because it'll spell doom for the game. I wish that every clown who is convinced that the game was better when it was back in the day will get their wish and every clown who tells me YOU HAVE IT SO GOOD NOW will get their fondest fucking desire and have the game return to vanilla. They tried to meet you guys half way this expansion and it's a catastrophe in my opinion. The game was not a success based on it's rep grind. It was a success when it became friendlier and friendlier and less of a grind.

[Lemonpartyfan]

The reps I got from dungeons had the gear. Not the reps from dailies. YOu keep moving the goal post.

False, again.

[Leonard McCoy]

SSO, Ggrila, and Skyguard all had gear. Hellfire had repeatables for rep as well, and I think a few others.

SSO was server wide I never touched a single fuckign dailly and never had to.

The other two weren't around at launch and by the time they were released I already had better gear. They were inconsequential at best.

Dailies have never had this much reward behind them. PERIOD.

[Lemonpartyfan]

I played during BC but I never said anything about options. I said rep was tied to an activity I liked doing it anyway.

You people want to keep hiding behind the literal definition of the word forced, that's why I'm not using it. I said you were COMPELLED by the gear and that was the exact reason the gear was put behind it. To compel, motivate, lure whatever it takes to get you to do the fucking dailies because so few of you did them in the past. If they were something to do in the past they wouldn't need more reward behind them. Clearly Blizzard wants to compel more people to do them. I'm not sure how you and them can then turn aruond and say hey man don't feel compelled to do them when they are clearly designed to be compelling in this fashion.

No, having multiple ways to get gear doesn't mean you have to do them all. If you give in to your gear obsession, thats your problem. I also doubt that no one here did the dailies in BC, as they were pretty necessary as far as getting your epic flying went.

They are designed to have a reward for taking 25 minutes out of your day to complete them, or just do them whenever you like. You don't need to them reach LFR.

---------- Post added 2013-02-02 at 02:27 AM ----------

SSO I got rep from in dungeons with turn ins, or bought in the auction house.

The other two weren't around at launch and by the time they were released I already had better gear. They were inconsequential at best.

Dailies have never had this much reward behind them. PERIOD.

SSO came out during the sunwell patch, and I don't remember having AH turn-ins.

---------- Post added 2013-02-02 at 02:28 AM ----------

I have a wish that I sometime hope will come true but really don't because it'll spell doom for the game. I wish that every clown who is convinced that the game was better when it was back in the day will get their wish and every clown who tells me YOU HAVE IT SO GOOD NOW will get their fondest fucking desire and have the game return to vanilla. They tried to meet you guys half way this expansion and it's a catastrophe in my opinion. The game was not a success based on it's rep grind. It was a success when it became friendlier and friendlier and less of a grind.

I also sincerely wish this. So all the gear obsessed can move on to playing zynga facebook games.

[Alastaircrawly]

SSO, Ggrila, and Skyguard all had gear. Hellfire had repeatables for rep as well, and I think a few others.

looks like your right. Hell fire had 1 daily

[Leonard McCoy]

No, having multiple ways to get gear doesn't mean you have to do them all. If you give in to your gear obsession, thats your problem. I also doubt that no one here did the dailies in BC, as they were pretty necessary as far as getting your epic flying went.

They are designed to have a reward for taking 25 minutes out of your day to complete them, or just do them whenever you like. You don't need to them reach LFR.

---------- Post added 2013-02-02 at 02:27 AM ----------



SSO came out during the sunwell patch, and I don't remember having AH turn-ins.

Yea I redited it. I never had to touch a sunwell dailiy in any event it was server wide. If dailies in mists were server wide I wouldn't care but they aren't.

Not everyone had epic flying in BC. Epic flying was actually harder to get in TBC and took some time and effort. I for one didn't bother until WOTLK.

In any event you can't get around the fucking fact that the developers have built a compulsion into the daily quests and are somehow trying to act like people shouldn't be compelled to do them WHEN THEY ARE DESIGNED FOR EXACTLY THAT. I ran out of options to get gear in mists pretty fast. Dungeons don't reward you past the first day or two and then for me it was lfr and sha once a week. I created all the craftable gear I could and have ZERO desire to pvp. That left me with... DAILIES.... to spend my VALOR because the path to gear that I had been used to for god knows how many years now (spending valor) goes through daililes.

[scoona]

with the new commendations you get i just lvled my hunter with it on for shado pan i am sitting at 6k honored just by doing townlong kun lai summit, shado pan monastary and sha once your exalted its easy farming

[Wildtree]

NThe game may have been a grind in vanilla but the history of the game and it's success has been making the grind less and less painful. It has never as far as I'm aware ever went backwards in this. In fact the entire history of the games success has been about making the game progressively more and more friendly. Even in TBC really.

17 factions in TBC speak a clear language that the grinding was at it's peak during that time. Even to the point that you had no other choice than to HAD to zone quest in order to get the heroic mode keys. You had to work your ass off to unlock the heroics, which then gave you the badges to collect for tier gear. Profession items hidden behind reputation, also existent. And depending on the class, even Orgri'la and Skyguards were a viable choice to get an upgrade from them. Especially Orgri'la since the dailies there gave chances of dropping an item which turned into a sweet epic. I've got two of them. They were BOE, nice money made that way..

The ease with grinding really started in WotLK, not earlier. And here's the problem at hand..
Many people complained about it, one way or another. Maybe Blizzard would have never reverted entirely back to that easy mode mechanic. But towards the end of WotLK and even more at the end of Cata the people ran out of anything to do. Possibly the solution is, that we players simply misuse the game, by trying to level every damn alt we got as fast as it gets to 90 again.. Well, it took a lot of time to get them to 70.. took a lot of time to get them to 80... lot of time to 85, and it's no surprise that it again takes a lot of time to get to 90 now.

[Lemonpartyfan]

Yea I redited it. I never had to touch a sunwell dailiy in any event it was server wide. If dailies in mists were server wide I wouldn't care but they aren't.

Not everyone had epic flying in BC. Epic flying was actually harder to get in TBC and took some time and effort. I for one didn't bother until WOTLK.

In any event you can't get around the fucking fact that the developers have built a compulsion into the daily quests and are somehow trying to act like people shouldn't be compelled to do them WHEN THEY ARE DESIGNED FOR EXACTLY THAT. I ran out of options to get gear in mists pretty fast. Dungeons don't reward you past the first day or two and then for me it was lfr and sha once a week. I created all the craftable gear I could and have ZERO desire to pvp. That left me with... DAILIES.... to spend my VALOR because the path to gear that I had been used to for god knows how many years now (spending valor) goes through daililes.

Again, this is like stating you are forced to grind away at the game forever so you can buy the top quality crafted gear. Or you are forced to raise professions, or you are forced to raise cooking, or fishing, or you are forced to get all the achievements. Just having dailies there with gear as a reward is in no way forcing you into that. You have many options, and again, if you are an LFR hero like I am these days, you don't need to touch a daily to get into any of the five LFRs currently.

[Leonard McCoy]

17 factions in TBC speak a clear language that the grinding was at it's peak during that time. Even to the point that you had no other choice than to HAD to zone quest in order to get the heroic mode keys. You had to work your ass off to unlock the heroics, which then gave you the badges to collect for tier gear. Profession items hidden behind reputation, also existent. And depending on the class, even Orgri'la and Skyguards were a viable choice to get an upgrade from them. Especially Orgri'la since the dailies there gave chances of dropping an item which turned into a sweet epic. I've got two of them. They were BOE, nice money made that way..

The ease with grinding really started in WotLK, not earlier. And here's the problem at hand..
Many people complained about it, one way or another. Maybe Blizzard would have never reverted entirely back to that easy mode mechanic. But towards the end of WotLK and even more at the end of Cata the people ran out of anything to do. Possibly the solution is, that we players simply misuse the game, by trying to level every damn alt we got as fast as it gets to 90 again.. Well, it took a lot of time to get them to 70.. took a lot of time to get them to 80... lot of time to 85, and it's no surprise that it again takes a lot of time to get to 90 now.

Excuse me that simple isn't true. NO TBC faction equates Furlbog in terms of sheer grind. While their may have been more varieties of grind, each particular grind was indeed less grindy. Many of them I could easily avoid because I already had better gear and didn't need the gear from them. I'd avoid mist dailies and reps to if I already had better gear.

The simple fact that you can't get around is that TBC (and this isn't just purely related to faction grind although this applies to tbc) made the game less grindy overall and more user friendly. The company started to make progressive decisions that made the game overall less of a pain in the ass and over the years this resulted in increasing success. The history of the game is a history of progressive decisions that help players out, not hinder them.

---------- Post added 2013-02-02 at 07:37 AM ----------

Again, this is like stating you are forced to grind away at the game forever so you can buy the top quality crafted gear. Or you are forced to raise professions, or you are forced to raise cooking, or fishing, or you are forced to get all the achievements. Just having dailies there with gear as a reward is in no way forcing you into that. You have many options, and again, if you are an LFR hero like I am these days, you don't need to touch a daily to get into any of the five LFRs currently.

Except those options are extremely limited in and of themselves. I'm an lfr hero these days as well and after I'm done my que for the week I'm done. I don't want to do dailies for gear. I've made the craftable gear and I have zero desire or ability to pvp. My ONE way out would have been valor in the past but now that's all behind daililes.. soooo I either sit with this currency in my back OR run the dailies. It's a total compulsion DESIGNED BY THE DEVELOPERS TO BE COMPELLING but it's also a shitty choice.

[Xucuroz]

Not really an issue on mains - i was geared ready for raiding on my first week of hitting 90. I was a tank too, so you can argue that my gear had to be good to tank MSV normal in the blue heroic gear. Yes the gear progression means it can be a bit of a steep hill if you want to jump in right on HoF/TotES, which you can't do but its there for a reason - so you can't skip content. Some people may hate that, others like it.

As for stuff like Rep ect, again it's not quite as bad now as it was when MoP was released. Getting your main to revered and getting the commendations helps a lot with alts, though its not an ideal solution by any means. I do feel like they kind of make valor gear pointless since by the time you have the required rep and valor, you'll most likely have LFR gear, which although not quite as good, is easier to get than grinding rep. Oh and if you still struggle to get the ilvl into LFR? Craft the 476 epics. I mean really. Seen so many people completely ignore them but they are really easy to make matt wise, and at this point in time as long as you are on a good pop realm, you could probably buy them on AH on the cheap`.

5.2 changes should make everyone happy, rep from dungeons, rep via the ranch, old valor items having their valor cost halved making it easier for alts to gear ect... Lots of good changes that should make complaints like this less of an issue.

As i've echoed time and time again, its only your own perception that you are forced into rep grinds. I personally haven't done dailies (except the ranch ones for cooking token) since November and i still manage to bag about 700 valor each week.

[Wildtree]

looks like your right. Hell fire had 1 daily

Yes, Hellfire has the PVP Daily to capture the three targets.

[Ferocity]

Correct, they were RAID Reputations, aside from Timbermaw Hold, which only required to kill an army of mobs, literally... with some 8 -10 rep pts per kill. Hence why I listed them.. For the very reason to show that reputation gain for rewards was never any easier as it is today..
Silly dailies require incomparable less effort than reputation you gained extremely slow through raids. What those Factions yield on Rep today isn't anywhere near what they used to yield. Almost all reputation gains for old factions have been buffed to death..

So you really don't see difference between:

1. Gaining reputation through raids. Through collaboration with 14/19/39 other people. All of them working towards one goal. With everyone having their own role and responsibility, which were making one great synergy, known as raid. It was adding another layer to guild management - distribution of ZG coins/bijous, AQ scarabs, MC cores for the optimal output. In TBC 5-men collaboration was enough for many factions.

2. Gaining reputation through dailies. Where you, e.g. as tank or healer, are attempting to kill some mob which aggro'd on you near quest object, and that quest object being stolen by someone else (who didn't even bother to help in any way while you try to kill damn mob)? When you as tank kill some mobs, and some griever tags and pulls more into your aoe? Or, most hilarious example, when people advice tanks (I mostly mean shield-tanks) or healers (btw holy paladins don't even have AoE) to AoE mobs - so when there are only 2-3 mobs up (as there are other people in zone) and you need like 10 of them, and you can't even group them for lol-AoE as they are quite far from each other.

So you don't really see how it is all different? Pt. 1 represents collaboration, Pt. 2 represents highly anti-social way, fully designed around dps.

No, having multiple ways to get gear doesn't mean you have to do them all.

As we obviously play different games: at least for 10-men it is the only way to gain gear reliably - rep + charms slightly helping with lottery, as lottery system of rewards is just one big LOL. The tiny little thing which made raiding somewhat rewarding - it was during TBC (badges and crafted/PvP gear in other slots), and in WotLK (emblems and introducing BoEs, so individual raiders could even make some small profit from raids if they didn't need emblems gear anymore). Those are vital. People can spread that lie that "raids rain epics" while they never were (especially 10-men). Instead of improving system of raid rewards, developers took away the only reliable reward they had and put it behind dailies.

One can say dailies are optional, all rewards are optional, gear is optional - why the heck to play at all then? One can see content in LFR or youtube videos. WHy bother paying sub for each month if you are to do mostly dailies day over and over for rep/charms. What is fun in highly anti-social activity in MMORPG.

I also doubt that no one here did the dailies in BC, as they were pretty necessary as far as getting your epic flying went.

If you were doing TBC dailies for gold, you were doing it wrong. Granted, they were more rewarding relatively to current ones goldwise, there were much better ways to make gold.

[Wildtree]

Not really an issue on mains - i was geared ready for raiding on my first week of hitting 90. I was a tank too, so you can argue that my gear had to be good to tank MSV normal in the blue heroic gear. Yes the gear progression means it can be a bit of a steep hill if you want to jump in right on HoF/TotES, which you can't do but its there for a reason - so you can't skip content. Some people may hate that, others like it.

As for stuff like Rep ect, again it's not quite as bad now as it was when MoP was released. Getting your main to revered and getting the commendations helps a lot with alts, though its not an ideal solution by any means. I do feel like they kind of make valor gear pointless since by the time you have the required rep and valor, you'll most likely have LFR gear, which although not quite as good, is easier to get than grinding rep. Oh and if you still struggle to get the ilvl into LFR? Craft the 476 epics. I mean really. Seen so many people completely ignore them but they are really easy to make matt wise, and at this point in time as long as you are on a good pop realm, you could probably buy them on AH on the cheap`.

5.2 changes should make everyone happy, rep from dungeons, rep via the ranch, old valor items having their valor cost halved making it easier for alts to gear ect... Lots of good changes that should make complaints like this less of an issue.

As i've echoed time and time again, its only your own perception that you are forced into rep grinds. I personally haven't done dailies (except the ranch ones for cooking token) since November and i still manage to bag about 700 valor each week.

I welcome the system as it is, since the start. Having a choice of not needing to run 5 mans until the ears and eyes bleed is a huge relief. And the dailies are at such large amount, that one can alter them so greatly, it never feels really like a total grind either. Counting now even the commendations buff... I just started to halfass seriously progress an alt.. I was towards Exalted from the zone quests in Dread Wastes alone. I think I done the dailies some 3 or 4 times and bam, exalted. Golden Lotus was way easy to get to revered to unlock the others.
Shao-Pan also had a head start from regular quest rep. The only faction that's really a little more effort to be put in is August Celestials. Domination Point is super easy too, and since it comes along with a nice quest chain, plus the Black Prince Rep, it's double dipping fun.
With 5.2 things turn again into a no brainer and non issue, I agree.

[HardCoder]

Is it so hard to read that people want rep from dungeons (!!!) not from dailies, where tanks and healers are pushed into killing 9999999999 HP mobs.

YES.

My two most played toons are primarily healers, and I freakin' hate grinding mobs on them, either in healing spec or by playing a DPS spec I don't like. That same thing annoys me about MoP leveling, where GC apparently decided it would be "interesting" if Pandaria was made "deadly."

[Wildtree]

So you really don't see difference between:

1. Gaining reputation through raids. Through collaboration with 14/19/39 other people. All of them working towards one goal. With everyone having their own role and responsibility, which were making one great synergy, known as raid. It was adding another layer to guild management - distribution of ZG coins/bijous, AQ scarabs, MC cores for the optimal output. In TBC 5-men collaboration was enough for many factions.

2. Gaining reputation through dailies. Where you, e.g. as tank or healer, are attempting to kill some mob which aggro'd on you near quest object, and that quest object being stolen by someone else (who didn't even bother to help in any way while you try to kill damn mob)? When you as tank kill some mobs, and some griever tags and pulls more into your aoe? Or, most hilarious example, when people advice tanks (I mostly mean shield-tanks) or healers (btw holy paladins don't even have AoE) to AoE mobs - so when there are only 2-3 mobs up (as there are other people in zone) and you need like 10 of them, and you can't even group them for lol-AoE as they are quite far from each other.

So you don't really see how it is all different? Pt. 1 represents collaboration, Pt. 2 represents highly anti-social way, fully designed around dps.

That was never the point. The point I made was that Raid Rep has/had a lot more efforts, time investment, and grind than a few simple dailies. Because we were talking about dailies and reputable quests, nothing else.

---------- Post added 2013-02-02 at 02:04 AM ----------

YES.

My two most played toons are primarily healers, and I freakin' hate grinding mobs on them, either in healing spec or by playing a DPS spec I don't like. That same thing annoys me about MoP leveling, where GC apparently decided it would be "interesting" if Pandaria was made "deadly."

Ok, I can sympathize with that reason, in regard of a healer. My main is a healer too, and I couldn't do what I do with him using my offspec...
In regards of a tank, not so much. They don't really are in danger of dying on every second mob pull.

---------- Post added 2013-02-02 at 02:07 AM ----------

If you were doing TBC dailies for gold, you were doing it wrong. Granted, they were more rewarding relatively to current ones goldwise, there were much better ways to make gold.

That's a gutsy statement, because the way of making gold vary greatly and depend a lot on a realms situation and population. On some realms making money may as well be the easiest way through either quest income or lower dungeons farming (before they nerfed the loot to the ground).

[AVPaul]

May be we have so much grind because Blizzard are oriented on China market now? Not just because they like China players more, then us, but because China market is much more wider, then ours. If it's true and China player love grind so much, then may be Blizzard should make a separate version of Wow for China with more grind? And if dailies are forced so much because Blizzard want revive world PVP, then may be they should force their dailies only on PVP server, just because there will be no world PVP on PVE servers anyway and nobody want it there anyway? For example: Tol Barad like daily zone without flying mounts in 5.2. Why should I have the same bullcrap on PVE server, where I'm playing? Flying mount is the only thing, that help to spot quest mob or item in reasonable amount of time due daily zone being very overcrowded. It will took hours of riding around to complete this crappy dailies. I'm hating dailies now, but in 5.2 it will be too terrible.