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  1. #61
    Elemental Lord Hyve's Avatar
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    Firstly Semaphore there is no need to go around making attacks on people. Just because I show a different view point doesn't mean you need to bring a bitchy, sarcastic tone into the conversation...

    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    Yeah we're so blind for following this pesky little thing called "physical evidence" instead of wishful thinking.
    Science has yet to reveal so much of the world we live on or the universe we're a part of. A lot of the physical evidence that people use are no more then theories or perceptions of an event. I've always advocated the great things science has, and can do.

    I just don't like how people seem to think that Science has all the answers, that a scientific view is the best view.

    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    That must be why the placebo effect is not recognised in science. Oh wait.
    I fail to see how this is relevant to my post at all? I never said science didn't recognise the placebo effect, but that in this case maybe it was better to leave that in place. We've all seen trials or cases where a placebo effect was all that was keeping the person fit and healthy, the thought that they were getting better, was more powerful then the drug they were offering.

    Doesn't that mean that in this case, she should've been left to take the water? Made to think that in this specific case she was getting healthier because of the drops? Then reduce the effect they have by making her miss a day or two, and showing her that perhaps the drops only took her so far, and that she has been doing it herself now for the last few months?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 10:51 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    Not really, no. Homeopahy does not work. What you are doing is buying very expensive placebos.
    I guess ignorance will be bliss in your case then.

    Real homeopathic remedies work just fine. The ones you buy in stores, the water droplets that this thread is about, we know, and most people know it is all bullshit.

    But don't ignore the hundreds of thousands of years of survival, wound treatment and remedies that worked just fine before we started to produce drugs that do everything better ...

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    Did I hit "Post Reply" too quickly, or did I not mention that they actually work and cost less per dose than the prescriptions I had tried?
    Are you aware of what a placebo is?

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    Are you aware of what a placebo is?
    Are you aware of what cluster migraines are? If a "placebo" is somehow solving that little issue, it's the best damn placebo ever.
    "But uh, says on your chart that you're fucked up. You talk like a fag and your shit's all retarded!"

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  4. #64
    Elemental Lord Hyve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    Are you aware of what a placebo is?
    Are you aware of the thousands of cases where people get better because of the placebo effect, rather then by taking the actual drug?

    Mind over matter is a genuine fact, and oddly enough Homeopathic Remedies can work just fine with Scientific Pills. It isn't a case of one or the other. But if one of the "groups" keeps shunning the other for no reason then it just gets messy and pathetic.

    Homeopathic remedies helped my girlfriend get over her severe panic attacks, and when I say severe, I mean it.

    Now, I personally believe that is was just a placebo effect for her. I believe that in her case she needed something to latch to, something to calm her down, and I wasn't it, so we turned to some drugs, and that didn't work, we turned to homeopathic remedies, and she stopped having them.

    Placebo effect or not, it worked for her, and at the end of the day this thread is about someone who wants to lose weight, and has used a homeopathic remedy to control that for her. If that is what she needed to get started then fine, but now my girlfriend doesn't need the homeopathic remedies because she is in control now, the same way the girlfriend of the OP would've eventually learned her own self-control without the drops.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Firstly Semaphore there is no need to go around making attacks on people.
    This may come as a surprise, but disagreeing with you =/= attacking you.

    you need to bring a bitchy, sarcastic tone
    It's like you don't even know me at all!

    A lot of the physical evidence that people use are no more then theories or perceptions of an event.
    The massive confusion of terms here is too massive to be seriously addressed. So I'm just going to elaborate on why your previous post is ridiculous and wrong. Physical evidence underpins our scientific theories. We accept the scientific view as the best answer we currently have, because science is based on logic and reason supported by real evidence. That is not blindly following anything - it's following reason, evidence and logic. As opposed to wishful thinking.

    I fail to see how this is relevant to my post at all? I never said science didn't recognise the placebo effect, but that in this case maybe it was better to leave that in place.
    You derided science because science tells us that homeopathy is useless. "Science fails to take into account the personal implications of many of these matters." But in fact science tells us that homeopathy can produce a positive effect through acting as a placebo.

    We're just saying it's a scam.


    Real homeopathic remedies work just fine.
    Your evidence being?

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    Are you aware of what cluster migraines are? If a "placebo" is somehow solving that little issue, it's the best damn placebo ever.
    Mind over matter my friend. Sometimes, all we need is to think we're healthy to become it. I believe a lot of people go through just a placebo effect with homeopathic remedies, but I believe that what is contained within some of the genuine ones help the process happen much faster.

    I've been on countless drugs and medicines for hundreds of issues, and now I don't take any of them. I just drink more water, look after myself a lot more and I am in a much beter state now then ever. Science does not hold the keys to every answer ...

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    Are you aware of what cluster migraines are? If a "placebo" is somehow solving that little issue, it's the best damn placebo ever.
    Placebos work 30% of the time for cluster headaches. Pretty low bar for "best damn ever".

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Are you aware of the thousands of cases where people get better because of the placebo effect, rather then by taking the actual drug?
    What are you trying to say? Because that's kinda my whole exact point.

  8. #68
    Elemental Lord Hyve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    We're just saying it's a scam.
    And how is it a scam? People look to be healed or made better, and they achieve it through a homeopathic remedy. Placebo or not, it worked. Why is that a scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    Your evidence being?
    Masses of person experience both first hand and with those around me.

    I've seen most of my family taking endless drugs to stay alive, handle their weight or control their fears. None of it worked, none of it.

  9. #69
    TradewindNQ, here's something you might find useful. Not sure if you can find a copy that's not behind a pay wall though.

    Nilsson Remahl, A. I. M., Laudon Meyer, E., Cordonnier, C., & Goadsby, P. J. (2003). Placebo response in cluster headache trials: a review. Cephalalgia, 23(7), 504-510.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    And how is it a scam? People look to be healed or made better, and they achieve it through a homeopathic remedy. Placebo or not, it worked. Why is that a scam?
    Because it's not real medicine. It's massively, unethically overpriced water or some such.

    Masses of person experience both first hand and with those around me.
    In other words you don't have any real evidence.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    What are you trying to say? Because that's kinda my whole exact point.
    My point is that people seem to think that science has the answer to everything. The answer was already there, that homeopathic remedies work just fine. Science came along, look up the skirt of these remedies and cried scam. People turned away from homeopathic solutions and turned to drugs and scientific related solutions.

    What people, and I believe you are forgetting, is that the point here is to help the person. Does it matter how that is done? As I explained in my past posts, my girlfriend no longer wakes up in the middle of the night in blood-curdling screams of fear and terror as she suffers a massive panic attack. I accept, and I even know, it was nothing more then a placebo effect, but why is that a bad thing?

    Humans have looked to science for answers for years now, but it is my belief that everything we need to heal our bodies is inside of us. We don't need to plug our bodies with endless drugs and medicines to heal, our bodies naturally do that.

    What we've done as a species is change what we put in our bodies, and that has changed what our bodies can do. I think that some homeopathic remides restore part of the balance, giving the body time to make its own adjustments, and heal.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    My point is that people seem to think that science has the answer to everything. The answer was already there, that homeopathic remedies work just fine. Science came along, look up the skirt of these remedies and cried scam. People turned away from homeopathic solutions and turned to drugs and scientific related solutions.

    What people, and I believe you are forgetting, is that the point here is to help the person. Does it matter how that is done? As I explained in my past posts, my girlfriend no longer wakes up in the middle of the night in blood-curdling screams of fear and terror as she suffers a massive panic attack. I accept, and I even know, it was nothing more then a placebo effect, but why is that a bad thing?

    Humans have looked to science for answers for years now, but it is my belief that everything we need to heal our bodies is inside of us. We don't need to plug our bodies with endless drugs and medicines to heal, our bodies naturally do that.

    What we've done as a species is change what we put in our bodies, and that has changed what our bodies can do. I think that some homeopathic remides restore part of the balance, giving the body time to make its own adjustments, and heal.
    Anecdotal evidence is an oxymoron and all studies that have taken place have concluded that homoeopathy is ineffective and often dangerous.

    'Homoeopaths' dupe uninformed customers into spending money on a treatment that most likely will not work and is no better than taking sugar pills.

    People die because of pseudo-medicine prescribed to them by nutjob quack doctors. Taking homoeopathic remedies as a way to cure cancer instead of doing chelation therapy is a good way to allow yourself to go terminal.

    The only thing that homoeopathy can cure is dehydration.
    Last edited by Lollis; 2013-01-27 at 11:18 AM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    Because it's not real medicine. It's massively, unethically overpriced water or some such.
    Cheaper then most prescriptions I've seen. See my latest post.

    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    In other words you don't have any real evidence.
    Please detail your full and frank personal research into these fields also. I'd love to see what you have published on the matter Dr. Semaphore M.D.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Mind over matter my friend. Sometimes, all we need is to think we're healthy to become it. I believe a lot of people go through just a placebo effect with homeopathic remedies, but I believe that what is contained within some of the genuine ones help the process happen much faster.

    I've been on countless drugs and medicines for hundreds of issues, and now I don't take any of them. I just drink more water, look after myself a lot more and I am in a much beter state now then ever. Science does not hold the keys to every answer ...
    I've had migraines for almost 18 years, often 2 to 3 episodes per week, or in the Spring and Fall they would just be one prolonged episode (up to 4 days). I've been on a myriad of treatments for them, had surgery on my nose and sinuses and about 4 different triptan drugs usually Maxalt wafers, changed my diet in many ways. Been admitted to the ER half a dozen times because the pain was too intense. Until I got fed up with the whole mess and saw a homeopath about a year ago where he suggested this formula. If I have a migraine, I take 2. If I know the weather is changing, which is my most common trigger, I take 1 before bed.

    Placebo effect or not, and forgive the pun, if it was just "all in my head." I like to think I could have clued in a lot sooner.

    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    TradewindNQ, here's something you might find useful. Not sure if you can find a copy that's not behind a pay wall though.

    Nilsson Remahl, A. I. M., Laudon Meyer, E., Cordonnier, C., & Goadsby, P. J. (2003). Placebo response in cluster headache trials: a review. Cephalalgia, 23(7), 504-510.
    Due to the severity of the pain, the placebo response in CH has been considered to be small
    Bottom line is you're telling me that it doesn't work.

    As for costs, this herbal formula cost me $30 for 30 capsules. Which is enough for 15 on demand treatments or 30 preventative ones. Maxalt, cost me almost $8 a wafer (1 per dose) and was mostly ineffective. My non-prescription alternative usually involved 6 tylenol over the course of maybe 4-6 hours and would sometimes help.
    Last edited by Tradewind; 2013-01-27 at 11:14 AM.
    "But uh, says on your chart that you're fucked up. You talk like a fag and your shit's all retarded!"

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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    My point is that people seem to think that science has the answer to everything. The answer was already there, that homeopathic remedies work just fine.
    Science doesn't have the answer to everything but your example is downright horrid. The real answer is that homeopathic "remedies" do not work. A placebo effect is not medicine working "just fine". It's overpriced garbage not working.

    What people, and I believe you are forgetting, is that the point here is to help the person. Does it matter how that is done? As I explained in my past posts, my girlfriend no longer wakes up in the middle of the night in blood-curdling screams of fear and terror as she suffers a massive panic attack. I accept, and I even know, it was nothing more then a placebo effect, but why is that a bad thing?
    What you are actually forgetting is that the placebo effect only works some of the time. So it worked for you, great, nobody's saying that's bad. But you could just as easily produce a placebo effect with a $1 sugar pill. Meanwhile most people who bought into the scam would have paid real money for something that did not help them at all.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    And how is it a scam? People look to be healed or made better, and they achieve it through a homeopathic remedy. Placebo or not, it worked. Why is that a scam?
    Did you read what you said? If I took a crap in your mouth and told you it was a cure for head aches and after three weeks of me crapping in your mouth daily your headaches went away did me crapping in your mouth cure your headache? That's what homeopathy is, except it's better tasting.


    That's the placebo effect, it is not a cure in any sense. It's self deception that could be provided without you being scammed out of your money.


    Masses of person experience both first hand and with those around me.

    I've seen most of my family taking endless drugs to stay alive, handle their weight or control their fears. None of it worked, none of it.
    Right, drugs never work. Because your anecdotal evidence beats double blind testing.
    “Logic: The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.”
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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    I've had migraines for almost 18 years, often 2 to 3 episodes per week, or in the Spring and Fall they would just be one prolonged episode (up to 4 days). I've been on a myriad of treatments for them, had surgery on my nose and sinuses and about 4 different triptan drugs usually Maxalt wafers, changed my diet in many ways. Been admitted to the ER half a dozen times because the pain was too intense. Until I got fed up with the whole mess and saw a homeopath about a year ago where he suggested this formula. If I have a migraine, I take 2. If I know the weather is changing, which is my most common trigger, I take 1 before bed.

    Placebo effect or not, and forgive the pun, if it was just "all in my head." I like to think I could have clued in a lot sooner.
    I think you've mildly mis-understood what I mean.

    I personally believe it was (You're excused for the pun) all in your head, but you also had the capability of completely curing it yourself also. All you needed was a little nudge, and that came from the homeopathic remedies.

    I believe as I said before, that these solutions merely help your body rebalance. Even if it is just water, how many people a day drink pure, clean water? Most people just drink coke and eat fatty foods.

    I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm merely saying I'm glad you found your solution, and that I think it was the homeopathic remedy that helps calm you, to let your body do the healing, and solve the issue.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 11:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by shimerra View Post
    Did you read what you said? If I took a crap in your mouth and told you it was a cure for head aches and after three weeks of me crapping in your mouth daily your headaches went away did me crapping in your mouth cure your headache? That's what homeopathy is, except it's better tasting.


    That's the placebo effect, it is not a cure in any sense. It's self deception that could be provided without you being scammed out of your money.




    Right, drugs never work. Because your anecdotal evidence beats double blind testing.
    Another post that fails to understand exactly what I am saying. Nice one!

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    Due to the severity of the pain, the placebo response in CH has been considered to be small
    And that study showed that in fact, the "placebo response is of the same magnitude as that seen in migraine".

    Next time, trying reading beyond the second line of the abstract that's merely summarising the background of the study.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 11:17 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Please detail your full and frank personal research into these fields also. I'd love to see what you have published on the matter Dr. Semaphore M.D.
    You claimed it works. You have no real evidence to back up that claim. Trying to shift the burden of proof, because you have no facts on your side, is really just pathetic.
    Last edited by semaphore; 2013-01-27 at 11:18 AM.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Janaa View Post
    It's not about backbone - it's about whether I should let her continue on a starvation diet for a month to gain the desired effects, and whether the evils of doing that serve a greater good than telling her and possibly shattering her will to continue doing anything, even a milder form of dieting. She's tried other things before but never stuck with them because she couldn't see any effect. This one she's committed to because this bunch of women at work tell her about the marvelous things it does.

    It's not quite as simple as having the courage to tell her - believe me, I shoot her down over various topics all the time. I'm just concerned about whether or not telling her would be helping or hindering her ultimate goal, here. The general consensus seems to be that I should tell, though, mainly due to the negative effects of a starvation diet.
    Having known a decent number of people who have had issues with weight and conquered them properly, I highly suggest you tell her now, and avoid two major issues.

    Issue 1 being that you are flushing 150 bucks down the toilet for absolutely nothing.
    Issue 2 being that absolutely no Placebo / Junk diet will EVER solve a weight issue simply because once they "finish" with their "diet" and go back to their regular eating habits, they will literally be right back where they started within a matter of weeks. (which takes me back to Issue 1, that you are flushing 150 bucks a month down the toilet for an "effect" that will be gone a few weeks after she stops using her "miracle" water).

    There is only ONE proper way to lose weight, and that is to actively change your eating habits for the rest of your life.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    I think you've mildly mis-understood what I mean.

    I personally believe it was (You're excused for the pun) all in your head, but you also had the capability of completely curing it yourself also. All you needed was a little nudge, and that came from the homeopathic remedies.

    I believe as I said before, that these solutions merely help your body rebalance. Even if it is just water, how many people a day drink pure, clean water? Most people just drink coke and eat fatty foods.

    I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm merely saying I'm glad you found your solution, and that I think it was the homeopathic remedy that helps calm you, to let your body do the healing, and solve the issue.
    It's not out of the realm of possibility, but given my history I'm less inclined to discount it's direct effects. I generally live a healthy lifestyle.

    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    And that study showed that in fact, the "placebo response is of the same magnitude as that seen in migraine".
    So the response is small in both, ok?

    You're still telling me that my experience is all overpriced hocus pocus, which I'm not sure how to make any clearer that it's not.

    I can only attribute the difficulty to not having the same experience with cluster migraines, or migraines in general.
    "But uh, says on your chart that you're fucked up. You talk like a fag and your shit's all retarded!"

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  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    So the response is small in both, ok?
    It's not small. It's 30%. For crying out loud, read the damn thing. English isn't that difficult to understand. "We thought it'd be small because cluster headaches are bad, but then turns out it's the same as normal migraines!"

    which I'm not sure how to make any clearer that it's not.
    How do you know it's not? You don't. You simply believed it isn't because you refuse to accept that it could just be a placebo.

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