Homeopathy - Should I let her continue in blissful ignorance?

[PizzaSHARK]

keeping her calorie intake down to 500 per day.

Wat. That's... extremely unhealthy, especially if she's gonna be doing it for more than a few days at a stretch.

---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 05:33 AM ----------

Did I hit "Post Reply" too quickly, or did I not mention that they actually work and cost less per dose than the prescriptions I had tried?

Placebo effect, man. Homeopathic remedies are so dilute that there is literally not enough active ingredient in them to make any sort of impact on a condition or feeling.

It's quite literally all in your head.

[TradewindNQ]

It's not small. It's 30%. For crying out loud, read the damn thing. English isn't that difficult to understand. "We thought it'd be small because cluster headaches are bad, but then turns out it's the same as normal migraines!"


How do you know it's not? You don't. You simply believed it isn't because you refuse to accept that it could just be a placebo.

No need for snarky bullshit. What I'm saying is that it doesn't really matter because in my case it costs less and presumably works more effectively than before I wasn't using it. Call it anecdotal, I don't really care because it still contradicts the generalizations you're trying to make here.

Most trials for CH medications can have a high placebo efficacy because the triggers are so varied as is the duration. I could go an entire morning with one and all of a sudden it will disappear by midday like it was never there. Other times it will come on suddenly later in the day and then last for 48 hours or more. Sometimes it was intensified by light and sound like a typical migraine, other times it wouldn't make a difference.

[shimerra]

Another post that fails to understand exactly what I am saying. Nice one!

I understand exactly what you're saying, I still think it's asinine dribble. If I sell you something that doesn't do what it says it does that is a scam. It's the text book definition of a scam actually. Just because you're stupid enough to trick yourself into thinking it worked doesn't mean it actually worked.

[semaphore]

Another one:

Matharu, M. S., Levy, M. J., Meeran, K., & Goadsby, P. J. (2004). Subcutaneous octreotide in cluster headache: Randomized placebo‐controlled double‐blind crossover study. Annals of neurology, 56(4), 488-494.

"acute treatments of cluster headache... response rate with subcutaneous octreotide was 52%, whereas that with placebo was 36%."

Wat. That's... extremely unhealthy

Nonsense! Also your chili made me gain a whole kilo :<

[jotabe]

I am not an expert in endocrinology, but from what i read, a 500 cal/day diet is very dangerous.
She will indeed lose a lot of weight, but as that diet is unsustainable, as soon as she stops, her starving body will get all the weight back up. And she will feel like shit all throughout, due to exhaustion (even if she has enough fat to burn, because of the extremely low energy intake, the body simply will shutdown and go into energy saving mode).

It is very dangerous, from what i know, so please convince her to see an actual doctor. In this case, the money loss is the lesser of the issues.

[semaphore]

What I'm saying is that it doesn't really matter because in my case it costs less and presumably works more effectively than before I wasn't using it.

That's not what you said. You said it isn't a placebo. It seems clear that it is.

I don't really care because it still contradicts the generalizations you're trying to make here.

No it doesn't. The "generalisation" is that homeopathy is a placebo. That it worked for you, doesn't contradict that fact. You just seemed very desperate to argue that it isn't a placebo. I don't know why, since as you said, it doesn't matter to you as long as it worked.

But it's still a scam.

[Shiny212]

I could never hold by tongue about stuff like this... placebo or not I have issues being around people that believe this sort of thing, and refuse to see reason.

[jotabe]

Alright, thanks for your advice everyone. Dropped hints throughout the day and then finally had a big talk to her about it, explained my concerns, the effects it would have on her health, and why the magic potion doesn't work. Drank the whole $150 bottle of water just to prove a point. She was mad at first that I didn't "trust" her judgement, but that was largely born of ignorance (because, lets be honest, they don't actually teach you how homeopathy 'works' in school, and most people selling homeopathic remedies - unless they're the homeopaths themselves - generally don't tell you either.. it's something which you'd have to actually know what it's about). As I explained how homeopathy works, she began to ridicule some of the tenants of it and then eventually realized she'd basically been duped.

I told her we can reduce her calorie intake without starving herself, agreed that'd be willing to give up a lot of the things I love and eat more healthy food with her - I can always top myself up outside of shared meals if I feel the need. And I committed to going for walks with her every day after work - as Aleros pointed out the easiest way to get someone to exercise is to do it with them. She won't want to walk as far as I do but we can work up to it.

Thanks for the ideas and advice, all.

Great ignore my previous post. A slimming down diet has to have enough calories so as the body doesn't perceive itself as starving. Good luck!

[Dethox]

Better get your gf a gym membership and a good lecture on how all these new-age methods to loose weight are a bunch of crap ( which, in their majority, cause serious health risks )
Oh and try to explain to her that just because her overweight, obese friends at work dropped 25 pounds in a week, that doesn't mean she ( assuming she is not' obese herself, just a bit round ) won't ever reach that because it's all a matter of percentages.
A 300 pound fat person can easily get off 30 pounds in a few days /weeks ( 10% ) while person that has 150 pounds will have major problems even getting off 15 pounds, because from a certain point the body will reduce it's metabolic rate significantly to prevent the loss of it's reserves (fat). There is even a saying ( "stubborn fat" ) that perfectly fits this situation. TO get past that plateau, one needs a lot of time and dedication...simply because you need to (re)train your body on how he should assimilate food, at what rate, and so on.

If this was her first time "trying weight-loss bs" let her see how it is for a while. She will then see how futile and stupid it is, and she might just get her lazy ass to some real work at the gym. ( this worked for my gf )




LE: Yea just saw you managed it in the end, ignore the previous statements if you find them useless by now

[Weirdbear]

Tell her. Mainly because I think starvation diets are stupid when it comes to shedding pounds since they'll bounce back as soon as she stops said diet.
Good food and working out should be the medication to use.

[Slummish]

Can't you do both? Let her continue on and simply refill her bottle with tap water when she's not looking... If she believes in homeopathy, she'll probably also believe she has a magic bottle than never runs out of diet juice. It will never cost you another dime and she can keep happily starving herself.

[TradewindNQ]

That's not what you said. You said it isn't a placebo. It seems clear that it is.


No it doesn't. The "generalisation" is that homeopathy is a placebo. That it worked for you, doesn't contradict that fact. You just seemed very desperate to argue that it isn't a placebo. I don't know why, since as you said, it doesn't matter to you as long as it worked.

But it's still a scam.

Because it's not like we're talking about some herbal remedy snake oil that made me somehow less afraid of sunlight or that Wool clothing isn't the creation of Satan. I have almost two decades of migraines and CH pain that I now rarely ever have to experience as, I believe to be, a result of now taking this formula for about 9 months now. Suggesting it's a placebo typically means it's just some inert concoction and the results are all imagined. It's also accomplishing this far more effectively and for less cost than prescriptions or over-the-counter alternatives. So how it can be labelled a "placebo" is a mystery, as it so far fulfills none of the criteria for what is generally regarded as a placebo...an ineffectual or deceptive treatment.

I should point out that I had apprehensions as to how effective it would be initially, it wasn't my idea to see a Homeopath or spend money on the product even after their suggestion. If anything I thought the same way, that it was all malarky and a waste of time. I however didn't have many more alternatives to explore. It wasn't until I did buy it and went almost 3 weeks without a migraine that I "bought into it" a little bit.

Does that validate all of homeopathy? Not in the slightest. It does go to show that it's not 100% bullshit.

[semaphore]

Suggesting it's a placebo typically means it's just some inert concoction and the results are all imagined.

Calling it a placebo means precisely that it IS an inert concoction, which in your case produced a REAL positive effect.

So how it can be labelled a "placebo" is a mystery

No, it really isn't. At all.

---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 11:56 AM ----------

It does go to show that it's not 100% bullshit.

No it doesn't. It just goes to show that a placebo has, surprise surprise, a placebo effect in some people.

The whole weight of scientific evidence still shows that it is complete and utter "bullshit".

[TradewindNQ]

Calling it a placebo means precisely that it IS an inert concoction, which in your case produced a REAL positive effect.

If it's inert how would it have any effect at all? Now we're talking about therapeutic effect as opposed to any actual treatment. If you've never had CH before I don't truly expect you to understand. There's no mental "off switch" to stop that kind of intense pain. Having run through pretty much the entire gamut of treatments for it that proved ineffective I'm disinclined to agree with labeling a treatment that works as a placebo. Especially when it has a track record of proven efficacy in my case, whereas most placebo effects are short-lived or unreliable.

The whole weight of scientific evidence still shows that it is complete and utter "bullshit".

Now you're just over-generalizing again...If that were true there wouldn't be so much controversy or Nobel winning Virologists supporting the practices. It's important to be skeptical of things, but this is just becoming ridiculous.

[semaphore]

If it's inert how would it have any effect at all?

Are you not aware of the placebo effect?

If you've never had CH before I don't truly expect you to understand.

You keep trotting this out like it means anything when I've proven that it doesn't. 30% of patients with cluster headaches experience the placebo effect. You are not special. You are not magically immune from the placebo effect.

Now you're just over-generalizing again...

Fancy way of saying "a factual description of scientific reality".

[PizzaSHARK]

If it's inert how would it have any effect at all? Now we're talking about therapeutic effect as opposed to any actual treatment. If you've never had CH before I don't truly expect you to understand. There's no mental "off switch" to stop that kind of intense pain. Having run through pretty much the entire gamut of treatments for it that proved ineffective I'm disinclined to agree with labeling a treatment that works as a placebo. Especially when it has a track record of proven efficacy in my case, whereas most placebo effects are short-lived or unreliable.

Dude. Everyone who isn't being paid off or isn't a quack knows homeopathy is full of shit.

If it works for you, that's great. But you're paying money for what's basically just bottles of water that don't have any actual, physical effects. It's literally mind over matter here, that's why they call it the placebo effect.

[TradewindNQ]

You keep trotting this out like it means anything when I've proven that it doesn't. 30% of patients with cluster headaches experience the placebo effect. You are not special. You are not magically immune from the placebo effect.

You haven't proven shit. If you knew anything about CH or Migraines you'd know why the studies have those kinds of results and why efficacy is hard to measure. I've even told you why, but you probably glossed over that on route to coming up with yet another obtuse conclusion.

Fancy way of saying "a factual description of scientific reality".

A fancy way of saying "I'm smug, la la la la."

[semaphore]

You haven't proven shit.

That the scientific studies I linked are inconvenient to your claim, isn't a rational reason to dismiss them.

A fancy way of saying "I'm smug, la la la la."

I welcome you to try disprove scientific consensus with real evidence. But I'm not holding my breath.

[Raybourne]

With saving all that money you could afford to take a vacation and ACTUALLY get some de-stressing that can help with weight loss. Or you could use the money to join a gym, get a personal trainer, or get your own personal gym equipement and still get a personal trainer.

[Schmiggy]

Are you not aware of the placebo effect?

As entertaining as this has been to read, this is going around and around in circles..

He's saying that the drug is producing actual results, therefor isn't a placebo without acknowledging that the actual results could in fact be a result of the placebo effect. You've explained the placebo effect, and I'm not entirely convinced he gets it.. or rather he understands the concepts individually but when he starts to bring it all together the little voice inside his head goes "lalalalalalala not listening not listening!".

If he did however acknowledge the results were purely due to the placebo effect, I'd be genuinely interested in knowing if he continued to receive the same level of benefit as he did before..