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  1. #1
    Pandaren Monk Serpent's Avatar
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    Haste vs. mastery - now and in the future

    Talking purely single target.

    Haste sims significantly higher for me than mastery (this holds true for the different levels of haste I've simmed with; so I'm fairly sure it's not a "close to breakpoint" thing). I know that Simulationcraft overvalues Haste slightly due to it playing the spec flawlessly. Now, I don't claim to play perfect by any means, but I feel pretty confortable with my response time/general optmization of the rotation, etc.. What I want to know, however, is this: How will haste vs. mastery turn out with the gear levels obtainable in the coming patches? Will the theoretical gap between haste and mastery grow (= haste getting better) or lessen (maybe even to the point where mastery is better, even theoretically)?

    And how big is this gap in the first place (theoretically)?

    EDIT: And another thing: does mastery pull ahead of crit on heavy AoE? I.e. in challenge modes. How about on Wind Lord?

  2. #2
    Missing a key detail: what spec....

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    Talking purely single target.

    Haste sims significantly higher for me than mastery (this holds true for the different levels of haste I've simmed with; so I'm fairly sure it's not a "close to breakpoint" thing). I know that Simulationcraft overvalues Haste slightly due to it playing the spec flawlessly. Now, I don't claim to play perfect by any means, but I feel pretty confortable with my response time/general optmization of the rotation, etc.. What I want to know, however, is this: How will haste vs. mastery turn out with the gear levels obtainable in the coming patches? Will the theoretical gap between haste and mastery grow (= haste getting better) or lessen (maybe even to the point where mastery is better, even theoretically)?

    And how big is this gap in the first place (theoretically)?

    EDIT: And another thing: does mastery pull ahead of crit on heavy AoE? I.e. in challenge modes. How about on Wind Lord?
    Mastery is 1% damage for ~75% of your damage as SV while crit is a 1.03% damage gain. I don't see mastery pulling ahead.

    I don't know anything about next tier and the gear levels and stats we will hit, but if it's anything like this tier most of the fights will favor mastery over haste and since the gap between the 2 is pretty small it would be better to just go mastery.

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  4. #4
    The Lightbringer Joyful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    EDIT: And another thing: does mastery pull ahead of crit on heavy AoE? I.e. in challenge modes. How about on Wind Lord?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    Missing a key detail: what spec....
    Quite obvious here, no?

  5. #5
    Pandaren Monk Serpent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joyful View Post
    Quite obvious here, no?
    I'm talking SV. I should have clarified that.
    (What you quoted, Joyful, could imply both SV as well as BM).

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    I'm talking SV. I should have clarified that.
    (What you quoted, Joyful, could imply both SV as well as BM).
    BM's aoe sucks. SV is the only viable aoe spec for challenge modes. I have all gold challenge modes as well as Joyful having all gold too.

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  7. #7
    The Lightbringer Joyful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    (What you quoted, Joyful, could imply both SV as well as BM).
    I guess, I just thought if there ever is a encounter which needs AoE, SV will pull ahead of BM (unless it is an extremely small amount of AoE in a long fight) since they are quite close together already on single target.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    Mastery is 1% damage for ~75% of your damage as SV while crit is a 1.03% damage gain. I don't see mastery pulling ahead.
    Not necessarily true. 1% crit increases your chance to crit by 1%, and with the meta gem that would make it a 1.03% increase in DPS... if you were starting at 0% crit. Since an attack that already would have crit can't crit again, that means every percentage of crit you get is worth slightly less than the percentage before it. Basically: adding 1% crit is worth more when only 5% of your attacks already crit than it is when 50% of your attacks already crit.

    It would still take a lot of crit for mastery to be competitive.

  9. #9
    The Lightbringer Joyful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    Not necessarily true. 1% crit increases your chance to crit by 1%, and with the meta gem that would make it a 1.03% increase in DPS... if you were starting at 0% crit. Since an attack that already would have crit can't crit again, that means every percentage of crit you get is worth slightly less than the percentage before it. Basically: adding 1% crit is worth more when only 5% of your attacks already crit than it is when 50% of your attacks already crit.

    It would still take a lot of crit for mastery to be competitive.
    I think Dracodraco have explained how crit scales at one point. And crit will be a lot better than mastery all the way until crit cap more or less.

  10. #10
    Uhm the thread was about haste vs mastery.

    Everyone comparing mastery with crit is posting off topic.

  11. #11
    The Lightbringer Joyful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    EDIT: And another thing: does mastery pull ahead of crit on heavy AoE? I.e. in challenge modes. How about on Wind Lord?
    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    Uhm the thread was about haste vs mastery.

    Everyone comparing mastery with crit is posting off topic.
    You're saying what?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    Not necessarily true. 1% crit increases your chance to crit by 1%, and with the meta gem that would make it a 1.03% increase in DPS... if you were starting at 0% crit. Since an attack that already would have crit can't crit again, that means every percentage of crit you get is worth slightly less than the percentage before it. Basically: adding 1% crit is worth more when only 5% of your attacks already crit than it is when 50% of your attacks already crit.

    It would still take a lot of crit for mastery to be competitive.
    I don't think a 30 dps loss is going to make mastery better than crit just because you have a lot of it. With this tier's current crit levels, crit is a lot better than mastery.

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  13. #13
    Haste has always been pretty trashy stat for Hunters, when we got just one hard-casted shot in most played specs. I always reforged out of all haste i had on gear, in DS and T14. In DS i was GCD capped on cobra most of the time anyway (huge stat budget + trinket proc + BM haste thingy / surv static +10% haste), now it doesn't matter much due to BW reducing costs by 50% and having much higher up-time due to 4set and readiness. We're seeing much less cobra shots in parses than we'd normally see in T13.
    Maybe when MM gets fixed so it's actually raidable it will gain some importance for that spec.

    With current (small) stat budgets I'd go all-out crit (after capping hit / exp), then mastery, then haste reforged out of.

  14. #14
    Crit is a diminishing stat. there will eb a point where mastery becomes better then crit, prolly near the 50% range but we likely won't see that shift in this x-pac

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    Crit is a diminishing stat. there will eb a point where mastery becomes better then crit, prolly near the 50% range but we likely won't see that shift in this x-pac
    Expansions have nothing to do with it, it will start scaling differently as soon as we reach the new level cap...

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    Expansions have nothing to do with it, it will start scaling differently as soon as we reach the new level cap...
    He's saying that we will most likely not get to that point this expac with the scaling in this expac, not the next ones. I'm not sure how you read that.

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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    He's saying that we will most likely not get to that point this expac with the scaling in this expac, not the next ones. I'm not sure how you read that.
    "we likely won't see that shift in this x-pac" meaning we would likely see it in future x-pacs?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    "we likely won't see that shift in this x-pac" meaning we would likely see it in future x-pacs?
    meaning we won't see it happen this x-pac... i said nothing of future ones... however hitting crit cap has been possible in past ones.

  19. #19
    I think simming for haste as a hunter is a waste of time. It never simmed correctly, and it shows a lot with this expansion. The only time someone should be casting a cobra shot is to refresh serpent sting or regen focus. Beyond that, you should be dumping with Kill Command/Explosive Shot and Arcane Shot if you have enough focus.

    Next tier shouldn't be much different since you can track the internal cool down on the two piece while spamming arcane shot to proc the 4 piece.

    I know I haven't looked to much into next tier. I'm sure others can chime in with more knowledgeable information.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Puerto View Post
    I think simming for haste as a hunter is a waste of time. It never simmed correctly, and it shows a lot with this expansion. The only time someone should be casting a cobra shot is to refresh serpent sting or regen focus. Beyond that, you should be dumping with Kill Command/Explosive Shot and Arcane Shot if you have enough focus.

    Next tier shouldn't be much different since you can track the internal cool down on the two piece while spamming arcane shot to proc the 4 piece.

    I know I haven't looked to much into next tier. I'm sure others can chime in with more knowledgeable information.
    I avoid haste when i can and reforge out of it (SV hunter).

    I'm not very good at math but stacking Haste only beneficts your autoshot (10-12% of your dps) and cobra shot (8-10%) of your dps. Meaning that you have a stat that only increases 20% of your dps.

    Mastery, on the other hand, increases Explosive Shot, serpent sting, black arrow, Arcane shot, etc... all added around... 70% or so of your dps?

    Even if i'm doing a big mistake in my calculations, it still seems a realy realy large gap between 20% and 70% in my book.



    The problem is that in all SIMS i've come across Haste is more valuable than Mastery, even Ask Mr. Robot that is used by a lot of people as a simple tool to use have that "problem" and may put a lot of hunters doing less dps than they should in case this is confirmed that Mastery>Haste for SV hunters.

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