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  1. #21
    What he's saying is that if above ~45% of your healing is from absorbs gemming mastery is more healing output than intellect, this is excluding the very real possibility of capping spirit shell (especially in 10 man raiding) and the additional dps gain you get from int. Considering this and your spell usage it's usually superior to gem int over mastery for 10 man raiding (assuming that you're gemming output stats and not regen that is).

    TLDR: Gem int rather than mastery for 10 man.

    yep. I dont think 60 crit is a good socket bonus. Gem pure Mastery or pure Int, based on your gameplay
    We aren't really at a regen level where it's worth sacrificing socket bonuses to avoid gemming spirit, picking up the 60 crit bonus is definitely worth it.

  2. #22
    We aren't really at a regen level where it's worth sacrificing socket bonuses to avoid gemming spirit, picking up the 60 crit bonus is definitely worth it.
    who is "we"? but ok. dont want - dont gem)

  3. #23
    Stood in the Fire Pyra's Avatar
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    I probably should've done this before, and i have no clue why i didnt, but this is very clear:



    Regail
    Gem: with 80 int + 160 spi
    Reforge: None

    Kritak
    Gem: +160 int
    Reforge: Spi -> 155 mst

    + what i would gain from wearing regail over kritak.
    - what i would lose from wearing regail over kritak.

    So basicly, i would only gain 0,92% mastery and 57 stamina from wearing Regail instead of Kritak
    Last edited by Pyra; 2013-01-29 at 06:58 PM.

    Awesomely made by Caiti.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Szer View Post
    who is "we"? but ok. dont want - dont gem)
    We=disc priests. In the current tier there's not enough spirit on the gear to make gemming it useless.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-01-29 at 07:50 PM.

  5. #25
    We don't have so much passive spirit on the gear that gemming it is entirely useless.
    We dont need that much spirit, that you need gem it.

  6. #26
    Stood in the Fire Pyra's Avatar
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    as you see, i'm running 8k unbuffed and i cant say i have problems. 5/6 MSV and 3/6 HoF atm (both hc obviously).
    I do got both Spirits and Relic trinket tho.

    Awesomely made by Caiti.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Szer View Post
    We dont need that much spirit, that you need gem it.
    Anything below 12-13k spirit means that you have to make sacrifices when it comes to spell usage, so spirit still has value up to that point (even if it gets lower and lower). There's plenty of top priests who run with 12k spirit ub'd, personally I run with about 10k atm. Despite that I don't really see 160 spirit and 60 crit being inferior to 80 int at our current gear levels, which is what you trade using an int gem in that slot.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-01-29 at 09:43 PM.

  8. #28
    People really need to learn how to do their maths properly.

    Intellect gives 1.05*1.05 more spellpower than pure spellpower does due to the 5% int buff and the 5% stat buff. So when you are looking at spellpower on teh weapon then 1 intellect is worth 1.1025 spellpower.

    mastery is currently slightly better than intellect at 2:1 ratio due to overheal considerations. Without overheal mastery is worse than intellect even at 2:1. Spirit is always wellcome, if you get more in one place you can drop it from somewhere else. e.g. reforge some spirit to mastery or you can reforge some mastery to haste.

    I personally run with 13k unbuffed spirit and still can use more. In 10man mana is less of a problem than in 25man, especially in hc fights, since many of them have too many regen opportunities or force to spam atonement. However in 25man this is not the case you can always use more mana.

    Returning to the item kri tilak gives more stats overall and more spellpower so it is hands down the better choice. You can get whatever stats fit your playstyle too.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2013-01-30 at 12:31 AM.

  9. #29
    Intellect gives 1.05*1.05 more spellpower than pure spellpower does due to the 5% int buff and the 5% stat buff. So when you are looking at spellpower on teh weapon then 1 intellect is worth 1.1025 spellpower.
    Int gives you 1*1.05*1.05*1.1*1.1 = 1,334 SP. Its 1.1025 times more then pure SP on weapons gives you, as you said, yes. But every 1 Int on gear gives you 1.33 sp.
    And 1 Sp from gear gives you 1*1.1*1.1 = 1,21 Sp.

    If you are about my math, then its correct anyway.

    If weapon has 1000 int and 10 000sp on it, then its total
    1000 * 1.33 + 10 000 * 1.21 = 13430 SP after buffs.
    Anything below 12-13k spirit means that you have to make sacrifices when it comes to spell usage
    That is total BS, because its true for YOU in YOUR raid.
    What if battle lasts for 3minutes and phase of "devastating AoE" dont even start? Do you need spirit at all? Not every one need thousands of spirits. My fellow resto shaman on our 1st kill of Feng hm (that was 1st day of 1st week of MSV hm opened) forget to reforge from elem and heal it with 5k spirit like np. Did 70-80k ehps and made 1st place through restors. Its only about healing efficiency. You really dont need that much spirit.
    Last edited by Szer; 2013-01-30 at 06:22 AM.

  10. #30
    That is total BS, because its true for YOU in YOUR raid.
    What if battle lasts for 3minutes and phase of "devastating AoE" dont even start? Do you need spirit at all? Not every one need thousands of spirits. My fellow resto shaman on our 1st kill of Feng hm (that was 1st day of 1st week of MSV hm opened) forget to reforge from elem and heal it with 5k spirit like np. Did 70-80k ehps and made 1st place through restors. Its only about healing efficiency. You really dont need that much spirit.
    I'm sorry that I have to break it for you, but every single progression fight takes more than 3 minutes and if there's no "devastating aoe" you won't need the additional output of other stats either. Healing efficency means using the most effective heal for the job that your mana can afford, if you'd be unable to heal more/better if you had unlimited mana (that's practically what you are saying if you place zero value in spirit) you have no clue how to play.

  11. #31
    you have no clue how to play.
    Ok. I just agreed with that.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Szer View Post
    Int gives you 1*1.05*1.05*1.1*1.1 = 1,334 SP. Its 1.1025 times more then pure SP on weapons gives you, as you said, yes. But every 1 Int on gear gives you 1.33 sp.
    And 1 Sp from gear gives you 1*1.1*1.1 = 1,21 Sp.

    If you are about my math, then its correct anyway.

    If weapon has 1000 int and 10 000sp on it, then its total
    1000 * 1.33 + 10 000 * 1.21 = 13430 SP after buffs.
    That is total BS, because its true for YOU in YOUR raid.
    What if battle lasts for 3minutes and phase of "devastating AoE" dont even start? Do you need spirit at all? Not every one need thousands of spirits. My fellow resto shaman on our 1st kill of Feng hm (that was 1st day of 1st week of MSV hm opened) forget to reforge from elem and heal it with 5k spirit like np. Did 70-80k ehps and made 1st place through restors. Its only about healing efficiency. You really dont need that much spirit.
    In other words 1 intellect on a weapon is worth 1.1025 spellpower on the weapon there is no point in applying spellpower buffs. That is just silly. You just want to know which weapon gives more spellpower. All you need to do is multiply intellect by 1.1025 and add it to the weapon's spellpower. You don't need to multiply int by 1.33 and then spellpower by 1.21 and add them.

    Healing efficiently with less spirit < healing at max HPS with more spirit for disc. The reason is simple: 1 spirit increases your ability to cast more spells more than 1 intellect increases the power of your heals. So maxing spirit and healing inefficiently provides higher overall HPS (but lower peak HPS).

    No one cares if your shaman managed to heal hc Feng with 5k spirit, especially in the begining of MoP, the question is would he have had better HPS with his spirit gear? The answer is without question yes. You don't need spirit if having your heals hit harder through intellect and healing more efficiently is better HPS. This is not true for disc because spirit has ridiculous returns through rapture. It is not the same for any other healer class.

    I have occasionally forgotten to change my farming int/haste/crit gear back to my healing gear and still managed to do decent HPS, by being fed innervates from our boomkins and ferals and because I had a resto shaman in the raid. I don't do the same HPS as I do with my spirit gear. Your shaman has more spirit than 5k too despite being able to heal the encounter with just 5k. The reason is his HPS is higher with spirit. Otherwise he would always run 5k spirit.

    Please post a log showing us what kind of HPS you can pull out with disc at 10k spirit or so, so we have a look at healers at the same category as you and determine if your low spirit does indeed boost your HPS relative to disc priests with similar gear level running spirit.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2013-01-30 at 09:33 AM.

  13. #33
    No one cares if your shaman managed to heal hc Feng with 5k spirit, especially in the begining of MoP, the question is would he have had better HPS with his spirit gear? The answer is without question yes.
    The answer is NO. Because you cant do more healing then incoming damage. If healer X make more HPS, then healer Y make less (if nothing changes in fight)
    It all about HPS distribution. If you are healing more (with dumb DA stacking for example), someone with you have to stop healing at all. Remember my words next time you will completely shut down Zorlok`s Force`n`Verve or Unseen Strike and ask your non-Dics healers what hps they did in that moment =)
    You made 280k, they made 20k. You cant do both 280k, there is no damage for your total hps throughput.

    So he made exactly so much hps, that left after other healers.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Ammunae View Post
    4. You talk about how Int is better for some "spell usage" choices. If you are playing the spec correctly right now, which involces taking advantage of how "OP" DA/SS are, you are mainly PoH spamming for DA shields on groups and SS basically on CD for most fights. Now, since Pyra is in a 10man guild, some of those choices are going to be filled with Heals/Gheals/Penances on tanks to help with tank damage, but from previous 10 man raiding exp, it is mostly PoH Spam.
    I maintain that if you are poh spamming in 10man then you are retarded.

    10man =/= 25man and even if the retarded playstyle works well in 25 man, in 10 man there's just about only shek'zeer heroic that demands poh spamming, the rest of the time you're gimping your raid by not smiting.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 01:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Anything below 12-13k spirit means that you have to make sacrifices when it comes to spell usage, so spirit still has value up to that point (even if it gets lower and lower). There's plenty of top priests who run with 12k spirit ub'd, personally I run with about 10k atm. Despite that I don't really see 160 spirit and 60 crit being inferior to 80 int at our current gear levels, which is what you trade using an int gem in that slot.
    Holy fuck? You must have crappy rapture gestion, I've done everything up to Un'Sok heroic with no more than 7k spirit and never had mana problems, I'm even doing fine on Shek'zeer, so either you don't know how to manage your mana, or I'm some sort of superhuman...
    And I'm certainly not the first 10man disc priest to say that 13k spirit is useless atm.
    Last edited by kouby; 2013-01-30 at 12:41 PM.

  15. #35
    Holy fuck? You must have crappy rapture gestion, I've done everything up to Un'Sok heroic with no more than 7k spirit and never had mana problems, I'm even doing fine on Shek'zeer, so either you don't know how to manage your mana, or I'm some sort of superhuman...
    And I'm certainly not the first 10man disc priest to say that 13k spirit is useless atm.
    So you heal the same on stone guards as you do on a different fight? If the answer is no additional spirit has value, if the answer is yes you can't play properly. My rapture usage is better than pretty much every other priest I've looked at, and you haven't even done empress, sorry to burst your bubble. Personally I feel like spirit past 10k has a lower value than intellect, hence I try to stay around this number, but claiming that it's useless is just retarded.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by kouby View Post
    I maintain that if you are poh spamming in 10man then you are retarded.

    10man =/= 25man and even if the retarded playstyle works well in 25 man, in 10 man there's just about only shek'zeer heroic that demands poh spamming, the rest of the time you're gimping your raid by not smiting.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 01:40 PM ----------



    Holy fuck? You must have crappy rapture gestion, I've done everything up to Un'Sok heroic with no more than 7k spirit and never had mana problems, I'm even doing fine on Shek'zeer, so either you don't know how to manage your mana, or I'm some sort of superhuman...
    And I'm certainly not the first 10man disc priest to say that 13k spirit is useless atm.

    If you are truly trying to get as much throughput as disc as possible.. esp on fights like empress heroic. You need more spirit to handle the amount of blanketing you do.


    I mean if it works for you... great, but I just cannot imagine running 7k spirit on most heroic fights and not gimping your raid.

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Szer View Post
    The answer is NO. Because you cant do more healing then incoming damage. If healer X make more HPS, then healer Y make less (if nothing changes in fight)
    It all about HPS distribution. If you are healing more (with dumb DA stacking for example), someone with you have to stop healing at all. Remember my words next time you will completely shut down Zorlok`s Force`n`Verve or Unseen Strike and ask your non-Dics healers what hps they did in that moment =)
    You made 280k, they made 20k. You cant do both 280k, there is no damage for your total hps throughput.

    So he made exactly so much hps, that left after other healers.
    Or instead of me intentionally slacking, the other healers can switch to a a DPS spec and do something useful. If a healer makes x more HPS, then you can drop a healer and have everyone else do Y more HPS.

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