Confused about something - Protection Paladin

[big deal]

Hello guys,

So I'm levelling my Paladin up to 90 (currently 87), and I started reading up on protection Paladins, as I want to tank once I hit 90. However, I'm a little confused about something. Based on the guides I've seen, haste is the best stat (at the moment, lets keep 5.2 rumours aside) as a tank paladin.

My question is, when I gear up as a tank, do i ONLY take items with +haste on it, or do i use tank gear and reforge stats to haste, or is it a mix of both? I'm pretty confused, because I looked through some level 90 protadins, and I don't see any pattern with the gear, some are ret-haste gear, some are tank items.

Thanks in advance.

[MerinPally]

Get your hit and exp first even if its a tank item was my philosophy and it worked well. A few others just go for the haste instead and forsake almost any tank gear and don't necessarily get capped and that works well too. Personally I'd advocate the first one and get there as quickly as possible, and some won't and will be close but not quite there. Makes very little difference to be honest, just remember the small things! Ghost Iron Dragonling for example.

Depends on what content you plan to run as well. In raids you NEED the hit and exp, in a 5man you only need enough of those stats to hold threat and then after that it doesn't matter as much.

[big deal]

well i plan on doing 5-man heroics till i gear up enough for raids

so lets say you're in raid, and a waist piece drops with no dodge or parry, but it has a lot of haste .. would you roll on it? considering the fact that you already have a waist piece with haste, but the piece that dropped was better .. would you/should I compete with plate dps for such items?

[MerinPally]

Really, you should yes because its an upgrade for you too. Whether you actually do is a different factor, like how much of an upgrade it actually is. Also, need to make sure you don't skew your hit/exp too much, need to keep in mind that should you lose any you've got to factor the other sources in and any haste losses to recover the hit/exp caps.

[Monolith of Mazes]

Haste is good, but don't go rabid over it. In your plate belt drop example you might want to compare number of gem sockets, how much haste you gain, how much of another stat you lose. Like, I wouldn't drop 500 exp to get 10 haste, or w/e, you know? Also, if the item is crit haste, you might want to leave that to your dps friends first. I've also typically not needed on haste gear until our lone plate dps has it, just because I don't want to try and explain why her traditional gear should now go to me and sound like a jerk, hehe.

[Firefly33]

A good tip for gearing up:

Higher item level = use it ( more stamina more armor, more secondary stats, probably more sockets )
Alot of the time, even plate intellect pieces are better than strength pieces if they are higher item level.

Stay away from dodge parry and crit pieces. Treat them like the plague.

Try to get as much hit/exp/mastery/haste as possible.

Basically, a gear with two of hit/exp/mastery/haste is good for you. If it has dodge or parry or crit, try to replace it.
Ideally you want hit/exp/haste on the piece if possible.

[Agalor]

A good tip for gearing up:

Higher item level = use it ( more stamina more armor, more secondary stats, probably more sockets )
Alot of the time, even plate intellect pieces are better than strength pieces if they are higher item level.

Stay away from dodge parry and crit pieces. Treat them like the plague.

Try to get as much hit/exp/mastery/haste as possible.

Basically, a gear with two of hit/exp/mastery/haste is good for you. If it has dodge or parry or crit, try to replace it.
Ideally you want hit/exp/haste on the piece if possible.

that has to be the worst piece of advice I've ever seen on the Paladin forums. Do NOT take int plate belts for an level upgrade. You blue str/stam belt would be better for a tank than an elite int/stam belt. If something drops and it ls crit/haste take it only if your hit/exp capped and feel comfortable with survivability. Yes haste is great for us right now, but you still want tanking stats.

[Fhi]

that has to be the worst piece of advice I've ever seen on the Paladin forums. Do NOT take int plate belts for an level upgrade. You blue str/stam belt would be better for a tank than an elite int/stam belt. If something drops and it ls crit/haste take it only if your hit/exp capped and feel comfortable with survivability. Yes haste is great for us right now, but you still want tanking stats.

a 489 intellect with haste and mastery is much better than a 463 strength piece with dodge and parry.

[Rupertfawke]

From my personal memory, if you gear up strictly from Heroic gear, you can get to the hit and soft exp cap. I think youll be just off the hard cap, but its been a long time since October. Reason being is hitting the hit and exp cap does more for you getting into MSV/HoF raids than being soft capped with some haste. Once you can keep yourself within 2% of the hard cap, start grabbing the haste gear with hit, exp, or mastery on it. Belt off of Vizier is a good choice if you want a massive chunk of expertise. On the topic of intellect gear with haste/mastery. which I know is the Klaxxi revered belt, it is better if you are hit/exp capped, but before that hit and exp are what you will want to reforge and gem for first. Any other questions, check Maintankadin, always a great collection of topics and advice for the beginning MoP tank.

[Firefly33]

that has to be the worst piece of advice I've ever seen on the Paladin forums. Do NOT take int plate belts for an level upgrade. You blue str/stam belt would be better for a tank than an elite int/stam belt. If something drops and it ls crit/haste take it only if your hit/exp capped and feel comfortable with survivability. Yes haste is great for us right now, but you still want tanking stats.

RELEASE THE FIREFLY

Not to call you stupid, but hard not to. Lets just do some comparisons.

First you say we want "tanking stats"
Okay, lets define tanking stats? What are the most valuable tanking stats atm?

Stamina
Armor
Haste
Hit
Expertise
(mastery) arguably

An item with higher item level will have more stamina, armor and secondary stats. The only drawback is the lack of strength, but that is not a main stat for us so does not really matter. An item with haste spirit int is probably better than an item with hit dodge strength if it is higher item level.

One of the intellect items I used was the 502 boots from Stone Guards HC which I got the second week. As we did not have a hpala I was the only one to get the item. At this point I only had 463 boots. The boots from sha of fear did not drop yet at this point, they were not added. But hey, lets for your benefit pretend like the sha of fear boots was already added.


So now we are comparing.

Heavenly Jade Boots

3867 Armor
+1441 Stamina
+881 Intellect
+546 Critical Strike (0.91% @ L90)
+630 Haste (1.48% @ L90)

Yellow Socket
Socket Bonus: +60 Haste

Reforge = 218 points, so given that, you get 630+218+320+60 = 1228 useful secondary stat from the boots.

Angerforged Stompers

3,547 Armor
+754 Strength
+1,131 Stamina
+573 Haste
+382 Mastery

So basically. The difference between the boots:

Int boots: +1320 armor
+310 stamina
+881 int ( hey, still gives spell crit, not entirely useless even though horrible )
+328 crit ( as above, not entirely useless )
+273 Useful secondary stats

Strength boots: +754 strength

So you tell me? Which is better

1320 armor, 310 stamina, 881 int, 328 crit, 273 useful secondary stat vs 754 strength. Not even a bloody question for me.

Same goes for like belt, if you are using a blue belt, there are epic belts with 2 sockets, those 2 sockets alone are 640 secondary stats.

In not all cases but almost all cases, higher item level = better, even if it is int. Ofc if the stats are useful.

Like, you wouldn't take a spirit crit int item probably. However an int 489 int item with say haste spirit is probably better than a 463 strength item with hit/exp/mastery and dodge/parry.

Feel free to compare more items yourself, really cba to do it myself since I would just prove my point over and over again.

[Lierial]

RELEASE THE FIREFLY

Not to call you stupid, but hard not to. Lets just do some comparisons.

First you say we want "tanking stats"
Okay, lets define tanking stats? What are the most valuable tanking stats atm?

Stamina
Armor
Haste
(mastery) arguably
*snip*

i don't want to trash someone, but that's about the worst thinking you can come up with ....
tanking stats have been determined for some while already

hit, exp cap then
haste, mastery, parry, dodge

armor, stamina will just come automaticly with an upgrade
so lets say that int belt will give you 600 haste, and with that you can bring down CS by about 0.1 sec you will have 1 more CS / minute. 3 holy power for an use of word of glory (about 60k heal on you) gives you 300 heal / sec ..... but because you neglet hit, exp cap your 1 extra attack won't even hit in most cases, so you get nothing

parry gives you some amout of chance to avoid beeing hit altogether ..... strenght automaticly increases parry chance, pretty much the same with mastery which increases the heal of your word of glory, as well as the block % when usind shield of thr R.

[CaptUntsAhts]

i don't want to trash someone, but that's about the worst thinking you can come up with ....
tanking stats have been determined for some while already

hit, exp cap then
haste, mastery, parry, dodge

armor, stamina will just come automaticly with an upgrade
so lets say that int belt will give you 600 haste, and with that you can bring down CS by about 0.1 sec you will have 1 more CS / minute. 3 holy power for an use of word of glory (about 60k heal on you) gives you 300 heal / sec ..... but because you neglet hit, exp cap your 1 extra attack won't even hit in most cases, so you get nothing

parry gives you some amout of chance to avoid beeing hit altogether ..... strenght automaticly increases parry chance, pretty much the same with mastery which increases the heal of your word of glory, as well as the block % when usind shield of thr R.

You are all arguing in circles. Everyone who does any research on the spec right now knows that they are supposed to hit cap and expertise hard cap. Parry and dodge are semi-worthless in comparison to haste and mastery. Really not even worth mentioning.

Yes OP. You should roll on plate dps gear. Warriors won't want haste, give them the crit gear. You really mostly only have to worry about stealing gear from a Ret pally, but its a fact of life right now. Haste is your best tank stat, and if they won't accept that, too bad.

And yes, if the Int item is a HUGE item level upgrade, it is better. Strength only gives threat, and a slight amount of parry. Compared to the secondary stats, armor, and stam that you actually gain, it's just not a question.

[Firefly33]

<snip>

I just forgot to add hit and expertise. Wrote the reply quite quickly.
Don't really think much about hit and expertise since the caps come quite naturally.

And armor and stamina comes automatically with gear, yes. That does not mean they do not have a value. And since we were discussing pieces with different item level, one will have more armor and stamina, so the actual value of stamina and armor in comparison to strength was the exact question. So it is highly relevant.

so lets say that int belt will give you 600 haste, and with that you can bring down CS by about 0.1 sec you will have 1 more CS / minute. 3 holy power for an use of word of glory (about 60k heal on you) gives you 300 heal / sec ..... but because you neglet hit, exp cap your 1 extra attack won't even hit in most cases, so you get nothing

Even if that was what I meant, you can't argue like that. Lets say I only got 8 expertise. Then you gotta compare the difference in value between 600 expertise and 600 haste rating. Not the value of 600 haste at 15 expertise or 0 expertise.

Also, sounds like you think we use holy power mainly for Word of Glory? Do you play paladin? :P

[Fhi]

maticly with an upgrade
so lets say that int belt will give you 600 haste, and with that you can bring down CS by about 0.1 sec you will have 1 more CS / minute. 3 holy power for an use of word of glory (about 60k heal on you) gives you 300 heal / sec ..... but because you neglet hit, exp cap your 1 extra attack won't even hit in most cases, so you get nothing

This reasoning only works if for some reason you assume that taking the int belt means you can never cap hit/exp. If I take a intellect belt that has +600 haste on it that makes me fall below hit/exp, I will make sure I hit the caps first, even if it means reforging the 600 haste away. The stamina and armor are still upgrades.

And besides, word of glory doesn't work that way. That is assuming you hit WoG every chance it's up, which isn't how you should be playing.

[djtravitrav]

Expertise to 7.5% is fine for tanking. Your only abilities affected are crusader strike and shield of the righteous. Everything else operates off hit. You gain more by reforging the extra 2550 in stats you would have used to hard cap expertise at 15% and putting it into haste.

[Fhi]

You gain more by reforging the extra 2550 in stats you would have used to hard cap expertise at 15% and putting it into haste.

Until you get 3 parries in a row (ret on Sha of Anger) and realize you were getting pounded on for 10 seconds without any damage reduction.

Don't make your healers cry. Get expertise to hard cap.

[Ishau]

And everything mentioned in this thread is useless unless you can play properly.
Paladin tanks who read that Hit/Expertise then Haste is best and then can't actually manage their Holy Power properly are so much fun.

[Firefly33]

Expertise to 7.5% is fine for tanking. Your only abilities affected are crusader strike and shield of the righteous. Everything else operates off hit. You gain more by reforging the extra 2550 in stats you would have used to hard cap expertise at 15% and putting it into haste.

Not 100% true, depends on your current values. Sometimes expertise is more valuable, sometimes haste. Thing is going with the haste > expertise priority will still set you at around 10-12 expertise.

[Butler Log]

Until you get 3 parries in a row (ret on Sha of Anger) and realize you were getting pounded on for 10 seconds without any damage reduction.

Don't make your healers cry. Get expertise to hard cap.

Or you are tanking Sha of Fear and take 700k damage to the face when he Thrashes because you missed a CS (you really can't afford to miss a HoPo generator there, the Thrash comes about every 8-9 seconds and it takes about 7 to generate the Holy Power if you don't miss anything).

[Firefly33]

Or you are tanking Sha of Fear and take 700k damage to the face when he Thrashes because you missed a CS (you really can't afford to miss a HoPo generator there, the Thrash comes about every 8-9 seconds and it takes about 7 to generate the Holy Power if you don't miss anything).

From my experience on SoF, If you are bunkering up HoPo to 5 before using SotR, you will always have enough HoPo even without expertise cap. I am yet to take a thrash without SotR up.