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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishau View Post
    And everything mentioned in this thread is useless unless you can play properly.
    Paladin tanks who read that Hit/Expertise then Haste is best and then can't actually manage their Holy Power properly are so much fun.
    I wish this was said more often. The Hit/Expertise/Haste gearing strategy assumes you have a fairly tight rotation. I think a lot of people, especially those new to the class (or tanking overall) would be better off with mastery or avoidance instead of haste. Not saying the OP shouldn't go haste, but I don't think the control strategy is for everyone.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Kebren View Post
    I wish this was said more often. The Hit/Expertise/Haste gearing strategy assumes you have a fairly tight rotation. I think a lot of people, especially those new to the class (or tanking overall) would be better off with mastery or avoidance instead of haste. Not saying the OP shouldn't go haste, but I don't think the control strategy is for everyone.
    The best thing to go if you play terrible is stamina. Mastery still relies on correct rotation aswell, and if you fail horrible and are stacking avoidance, that wont help you anyway. Even if you have 50% avoidance but completely fail with using SotR, you will drop.

    So Stamina is the best route for those that can't perform the rotation properly since it is the least rotation dependant gearing strategy. However that being said, I do not feel like it is an excuse. If you are bad at your rotation, get better. Its like a rogue discussing "If you only melee hit and dont use your ability, haste is better than crit actually so if you are bad and have 60% melee attack damage you should stack haste over crit"

    Nah, if you are bad you shouldn't stack this or that, you should practice and become better.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    The best thing to go if you play terrible is stamina. Mastery still relies on correct rotation aswell, and if you fail horrible and are stacking avoidance, that wont help you anyway. Even if you have 50% avoidance but completely fail with using SotR, you will drop.

    So Stamina is the best route for those that can't perform the rotation properly since it is the least rotation dependant gearing strategy. However that being said, I do not feel like it is an excuse. If you are bad at your rotation, get better. Its like a rogue discussing "If you only melee hit and dont use your ability, haste is better than crit actually so if you are bad and have 60% melee attack damage you should stack haste over crit"

    Nah, if you are bad you shouldn't stack this or that, you should practice and become better.
    I agree. Just because there is a subpar way of doing things does not mean we should do it. It's like glyph of Inquisition with its stated intention of giving an option to players who struggle with keeping up Inq. Especially if you're doing group-oriented progression.

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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    I agree. Just because there is a subpar way of doing things does not mean we should do it. It's like glyph of Inquisition with its stated intention of giving an option to players who struggle with keeping up Inq. Especially if you're doing group-oriented progression.
    What is hillarious though is that the people that always seem to say this "bad players should do x instead of y"
    always seem to advocate mastery or avoidance, when the fact is, that will get you killed just as fast, since both avoidance and mastery is still very reliable on SotR.

    Ofc, all paladin specs are reliable on SotR, but stamina is by far the stat that is least reliable on it.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    What is hillarious though is that the people that always seem to say this "bad players should do x instead of y"
    always seem to advocate mastery or avoidance, when the fact is, that will get you killed just as fast, since both avoidance and mastery is still very reliable on SotR.

    Ofc, all paladin specs are reliable on SotR, but stamina is by far the stat that is least reliable on it.
    In my opinion, bad players should get better and not be told "just do this because you are bad". Won't help them get in a raid.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    In my opinion, bad players should get better and not be told "just do this because you are bad". Won't help them get in a raid.
    My exact opinion aswell in the matter.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    What is hillarious though is that the people that always seem to say this "bad players should do x instead of y"
    always seem to advocate mastery or avoidance, when the fact is, that will get you killed just as fast, since both avoidance and mastery is still very reliable on SotR.

    Ofc, all paladin specs are reliable on SotR, but stamina is by far the stat that is least reliable on it.
    The reason people advocate avoidance or mastery is because they're far more automatic than haste, hit or expertise. Mastery gives block as well as increasing your SoTR dame reduction. If your rotation is bad enough then you'll get more out of the automatic extra block or dodge. Haste has the unfortunate side effect of speeding up your rotation quite a bit.

    Although I do agree that stamina will help quite a bit as well. I think stamina will likely help more in a raid setting while avoidance will probably help more in a 5 man setting (similar to the what the OP is currently working on as hes 87).

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Kebren View Post
    The reason people advocate avoidance or mastery is because they're far more automatic than haste, hit or expertise. Mastery gives block as well as increasing your SoTR dame reduction. If your rotation is bad enough then you'll get more out of the automatic extra block or dodge. Haste has the unfortunate side effect of speeding up your rotation quite a bit.

    Although I do agree that stamina will help quite a bit as well. I think stamina will likely help more in a raid setting while avoidance will probably help more in a 5 man setting (similar to the what the OP is currently working on as hes 87).
    To say mastery is automatic is just pure bull.

    It is like saying haste is automatic because we auto attack faster = more SoI procs
    So really, with my logic, shouldn't haste be the best to stack since it is the pure definitition of automatic, you just right click and you get passive healing, no RNG or anything. Not to mention if you just press sacred shield every now and then, not even important to keep it up, you will get more throughput on that aswell. Also, even if you press the wrong buttons, you can still press the wrong buttons faster resulting in more SoI procs and SotR usage. Right? No, it does not work that way.

    In the same way it is just as stupid as the argument of the other stats being "passive". Mastery is not an automatic stat, do not try to make it one. The main component of mastery is still the SotR damage reduction, not the block.

    That being said, while dodge and parry is automatic, they are still terrible terrible stats, since you will still get bursted down like a fly due to bad rng with alot of hits in a row.

    The only stat that can be considered automatic is stamina, period. Ofc, that being said, the better you play, the more value stamina gets. ( If you have 500k health and reduce 50% damage, you can take 1000k damage without dieng. If you instead only reduce 40% damage you can only take 833k damage without death )
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-01-29 at 03:29 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    An item with higher item level will have more stamina, armor and secondary stats. The only drawback is the lack of strength, but that is not a main stat for us so does not really matter. An item with haste spirit int is probably better than an item with hit dodge strength if it is higher item level.
    One of the intellect items I used was the 502 boots from Stone Guards HC which I got the second week. As we did not have a hpala I was the only one to get the item. At this point I only had 463 boots. The boots from sha of fear did not drop yet at this point, they were not added. But hey, lets for your benefit pretend like the sha of fear boots was already added.
    So now we are comparing.
    Heavenly Jade Boots
    3867 Armor
    +1441 Stamina
    +881 Intellect
    +546 Critical Strike (0.91% @ L90)
    +630 Haste (1.48% @ L90)
    Yellow Socket
    Socket Bonus: +60 Haste
    Reforge = 218 points, so given that, you get 630+218+320+60 = 1228 useful secondary stat from the boots.
    Angerforged Stompers
    3,547 Armor
    +754 Strength
    +1,131 Stamina
    +573 Haste
    +382 Mastery
    So basically. The difference between the boots:
    Int boots: +1320 armor
    +310 stamina
    +881 int ( hey, still gives spell crit, not entirely useless even though horrible )
    +328 crit ( as above, not entirely useless )
    +273 Useful secondary stats
    Strength boots: +754 strength
    So you tell me? Which is better
    1320 armor, 310 stamina, 881 int, 328 crit, 273 useful secondary stat vs 754 strength. Not even a bloody question for me.
    Same goes for like belt, if you are using a blue belt, there are epic belts with 2 sockets, those 2 sockets alone are 640 secondary stats.
    In not all cases but almost all cases, higher item level = better, even if it is int. Ofc if the stats are useful.
    Like, you wouldn't take a spirit crit int item probably. However an int 489 int item with say haste spirit is probably better than a 463 strength item with hit/exp/mastery and dodge/parry.
    Feel free to compare more items yourself, really cba to do it myself since I would just prove my point over and over again.
    Sorry had to comment on this. If you ever take a piece of intellect gear and use it for tanking you will be considered terrible for multiple reasons.

    Regardless of the stats you'd gain you are forgetting one thing, Strength translates into a considerable amount of parry which IS a tanking stat. Granted it's not one we go extremely out of our way to grab on gear, but every bit of free strength is free parry that we got without spending itemization on it.

    So you have to ask yourself is:
    573 Haste (1.34%)
    382 Mastery (0.63% / 1.43% block)
    0.23% Parry (From the Strength)
    1131 Stamina (23400 Health)

    Worth giving up just to gain
    881 Intellect (0.35% Spell Crit, only good for healing spells excluding SoI)
    630 Haste (0.14% Haste over other)
    541 Crit (0.91% Crit gained, doesn't really help us in staying alive)
    1441 Stamina (+6426 Health over other)

    So basically you are saying +6.4k Health + 0.14% Haste > -6.4k Health - 0.14% Haste +0.23% Parry + 1.43% Block. I'm sorry I don't see how anyone in their right mind could ever justify that an Intellect piece of higher iLvL is better than a lower level strength.

    If you want to compare pieces at least go through the effort of breaking everything down like I did so you can see the entire picture and not just numbers on a piece of gear that are in the open instead of doing the math on everyone. As you can see with the math done in your example the Strength clearly outweighs the Intellect piece where you say it's vice versa.

    Even if you were to reforge the Intellect piece it would still come out behind compared to the Strength one in this example as it's perfectly itemized unless you are needing hit/exp.
    Last edited by Lucetia; 2013-01-29 at 05:02 AM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    To say mastery is automatic is just pure bull.

    It is like saying haste is automatic because we auto attack faster = more SoI procs
    So really, with my logic, shouldn't haste be the best to stack since it is the pure definitition of automatic, you just right click and you get passive healing, no RNG or anything. Not to mention if you just press sacred shield every now and then, not even important to keep it up, you will get more throughput on that aswell. Also, even if you press the wrong buttons, you can still press the wrong buttons faster resulting in more SoI procs and SotR usage. Right? No, it does not work that way.

    In the same way it is just as stupid as the argument of the other stats being "passive". Mastery is not an automatic stat, do not try to make it one. The main component of mastery is still the SotR damage reduction, not the block.

    That being said, while dodge and parry is automatic, they are still terrible terrible stats, since you will still get bursted down like a fly due to bad rng with alot of hits in a row.

    The only stat that can be considered automatic is stamina, period. Ofc, that being said, the better you play, the more value stamina gets. ( If you have 500k health and reduce 50% damage, you can take 1000k damage without dieng. If you instead only reduce 40% damage you can only take 833k damage without death )
    Honestly I'm not really looking to get into a long winded argument over which stat is more passive than others. Especially when you start calling arguments stupid and the like. If you want to recommend stamina then I agree with you that its a good stat (as I said above). My point was more that the control gearing strategy isn't for everybody. You took that and twisted it into something else.

    I'm of the opinion that completely avoiding or blocking an attack is pretty strong for someone whos struggling with their rotation. I also think that dodge and block are actually pretty decent stats for 5 man content where there's lots of small hits. Thats fine that you disagree with that, but I would appreciate if you don't call that opinion stupid.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    Sorry had to comment on this. If you ever take a piece of intellect gear and use it for tanking you will be considered terrible for multiple reasons.

    Regardless of the stats you'd gain you are forgetting one thing, Strength translates into a considerable amount of parry which IS a tanking stat. Granted it's not one we go extremely out of our way to grab on gear, but every bit of free strength is free parry that we got without spending itemization on it.

    snip
    According to wowhead we get :
    754 Str + 382 Mastery vs 310 Stamina , 320 armor, 546 crit, 57 haste and 1 socket.
    If we are to assume that we get for mastery and haste ~= 1 mastery we can cut it down to
    754 str vs 310 stam, 546 crit and 320 armor.
    Now considering that we can still reforge that crit into say parry , then we get 327 crit and 218 parry rating.
    At lvl 90 218 parry is 0.24525% parry.

    So basically you're trading
    AP from 754 str for : 310 stam, 327 crit and 320 armor. Which is def better.

  12. #32
    Moderator Fhi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    So you have to ask yourself is:
    573 Haste (1.34%)
    382 Mastery (0.63% / 1.43% block)
    0.23% Parry (From the Strength)
    1131 Stamina (23400 Health)

    Worth giving up just to gain
    881 Intellect (0.35% Spell Crit, only good for healing spells excluding SoI)
    630 Haste (0.14% Haste over other)
    541 Crit (0.91% Crit gained, doesn't really help us in staying alive)
    1441 Stamina (+6426 Health over other)

    So basically you are saying +6.4k Health + 0.14% Haste > -6.4k Health - 0.14% Haste +0.23% Parry + 1.43% Block. I'm sorry I don't see how anyone in their right mind could ever justify that an Intellect piece of higher iLvL is better than a lower level strength.
    The only intellect piece stat combo you should even be considering is haste/mastery. Your example is weak because of the crit.

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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    The only intellect piece stat combo you should even be considering is haste/mastery. Your example is weak because of the crit.
    Well even in this case it would win.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    The only intellect piece stat combo you should even be considering is haste/mastery. Your example is weak because of the crit.
    Not true. You have to compare with the other item still. An item with say haste/crit, can still be reforged.
    If the protection piece is several item levels lower, the int piece can still win even with haste/crit on it.

    It is simply because of the fact that sockets, armor, stamina and the pure amount of secondary stats grows as the item level increase. Which can cause int with crit or spirit on it to be viable. You will probably end up replacing it when you get a strength drop, but it is still an upgrade from what you have.

    His example is weak because he ignored the armor, the socket bonus and the reforging.



    ---------- Post added 2013-01-29 at 01:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    -snip-
    Lets complete ignore the socket, socket bonus, the armor, the reforging.

    Also, for some reason I find it funny how you make it sound like the crit is useless but the parry is godlike! I mean, 0.23% parry, insane!

    Wouldn't it be closer to like 0.8% parry or something like that btw? Hrr, I have no idea, I never really bother to check parry but tried putting on and off a piece with 749 str on it in-game and gave me like 0.8x parry or something. Not that it matters. Int boots still win in this example.


    ---------- Post added 2013-01-29 at 01:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    According to wowhead we get :
    754 Str + 382 Mastery vs 310 Stamina , 320 armor, 546 crit, 57 haste and 1 socket.
    If we are to assume that we get for mastery and haste ~= 1 mastery we can cut it down to
    754 str vs 310 stam, 546 crit and 320 armor.
    Now considering that we can still reforge that crit into say parry , then we get 327 crit and 218 parry rating.
    At lvl 90 218 parry is 0.24525% parry.

    So basically you're trading
    AP from 754 str for : 310 stam, 327 crit and 320 armor. Which is def better.
    You forgot that the int boots also provide more useful secondary stat due to the socket as I mentioned.
    Also the int is not entirely useless as said. I still have 1 intellect piece in my tanking gear ( not the boots ), and it gives me 2% spell crit, that is quite alot actually.

    +320 armor
    +310 stamina
    +881 int ( hey, still gives spell crit, not entirely useless even though horrible )
    +327 crit ( as above, not entirely useless )
    +274 Useful secondary stats

    VS

    +754 strength
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-01-29 at 01:00 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  15. #35
    Moderator Fhi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Not true. You have to compare with the other item still. An item with say haste/crit, can still be reforged.
    If the protection piece is several item levels lower, the int piece can still win even with haste/crit on it.
    You're right, fair enough. For me to consider an intellect piece, it has to be much higher ilevel than what I currently have (i.e enough armor + stamina upgrade).

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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    You're right, fair enough. For me to consider an intellect piece, it has to be much higher ilevel than what I currently have (i.e enough armor + stamina upgrade).
    Yeah most of the cases. An intellect piece that has higher item level ( even like from normal mode to heroic mode difference ), with haste+(insert stat) is better than a strength piece with parry/dodge + (insert stat that is not dodge/parry). Now that is just generally speaking, not always true ofc. There is no 'law'. You have to compare each individual piece.

    For an intellect piece to be better than a strength piece with 2 good stats i.e. hit haste or whatever, it generally needs to be a big bump in item level i.e. say normal MGv vs heroic terrace/hof and have either haste mastery or haste+good sockets.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Yeah most of the cases. An intellect piece that has higher item level ( even like from normal mode to heroic mode difference ), with haste+(insert stat) is better than a strength piece with parry/dodge + (insert stat that is not dodge/parry). Now that is just generally speaking, not always true ofc. There is no 'law'. You have to compare each individual piece.

    For an intellect piece to be better than a strength piece with 2 good stats i.e. hit haste or whatever, it generally needs to be a big bump in item level i.e. say normal MGv vs heroic terrace/hof and have either haste mastery or haste+good sockets.
    Dodge and parry are far from being bad stats. While they are our least desirable stats in terms of smoothing damage intake, they are the strongest in terms of total damage reduction and do have a noticeable impact in survivability. Couple that with the fact that Strength has an almost 1:1 conversion with parry rating and you're potentially giving up 1000+ points of useful tank stats for 200-300 stam (in the best case) and some slightly better secondary stats. This is even ignoring the fact that most intellect plate that would be even considered is spirit-haste or spirit-mastery meaning that half of the secondary stats are completely wasted as Protection. The only way an intellect piece could be considered over an actual tank piece in terms of raw stamina and secondary stats would be when comparing blues to 509 int plate.

    Edit: My post came off a bit more antagonistic than I intended, I meant to address the point that for intellect plate to be considered it must be a much larger item level differential than your post suggests.
    Last edited by paoani; 2013-01-29 at 04:50 PM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by paoani View Post
    Honestly, the numbers could not disagree more with you. Dodge and parry are far from being bad stats. While they are our least desirable stats in terms of smoothing damage intake, they are the strongest in terms of total damage reduction and do have a noticeable impact in survivability. Couple that with the fact that Strength has an almost 1:1 conversion with parry rating and you're potentially giving up 1000+ points of useful tank stats for 200-300 stam (in the best case) and some slightly better secondary stats. This is even ignoring the fact that most intellect plate that would be even considered is spirit-haste or spirit-mastery meaning that half of the secondary stats are completely wasted as Protection. The only way an intellect piece could be considered over an actual tank piece in terms of raw stamina and secondary stats would be when comparing blues to 509 int plate.

    Edit: My post came off a bit more antagonistic than I intended, I meant to address the point that for intellect plate to be considered it must be a much larger item level differential than your post suggests.
    That is a matter of tanking prefference. Personally I rate dodge and parry at about the same level as crit.

    In my personal opinion, dodge and parry is close to useless.
    Yes, while they provide the highset TDR on paper. Whenever I dodge and parry, the only thing that actually happens is that my healers overheal. Since I already had hots and heals incoming. Not to mention that your own SoI will also overheal. So lets say you dodge an attack for 200k, but that instead causes you to recieve 180k overhealing ( numbers pulled out of my ass ). The actual effect of that dodge would only be 20k, since you would have healed the rest.

    Now, those numbers of course depend from situation to situation. Though that is the main reason why I treat dodge and parry like utter shit. Since in my eyes, they provide no real benefit for me.

    On my gear currently I got 0 dodge and 0 parry.

    I would rather take 200-300 stamina than 1000 parry any day.
    While parry is not 100% useless, I would not even remotely call it an useful stat.

    But hey still, lets look at the previous example.


    +320 armor
    +310 stamina
    +881 int ( hey, still gives spell crit, not entirely useless even though horrible )
    +327 crit ( as above, not entirely useless )
    +274 Useful secondary stats

    vs

    +754 strength

    I would rather take 320 armor, 310 stamina, 274 haste than 754 strength, even if it was complete 1:1 ratio lets say it was 754 parry.

    Now that is disregarding the (small) value of int , crit and the AP from strength. With those weigthed in, the int boots would still outweigh that.

    And to say it has to be 463 vs 509 to make a difference is just plain wrong.
    Lets remember that stamina, armor and other secondary stats are FAR more valuable than parry and dodge, so it does not really take alot to figure out that int pieces often out weighs strength pieces.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by paoani View Post
    Dodge and parry are far from being bad stats. While they are our least desirable stats in terms of smoothing damage intake, they are the strongest in terms of total damage reduction and do have a noticeable impact in survivability. Couple that with the fact that Strength has an almost 1:1 conversion with parry rating and you're potentially giving up 1000+ points of useful tank stats for 200-300 stam (in the best case) and some slightly better secondary stats. This is even ignoring the fact that most intellect plate that would be even considered is spirit-haste or spirit-mastery meaning that half of the secondary stats are completely wasted as Protection. The only way an intellect piece could be considered over an actual tank piece in terms of raw stamina and secondary stats would be when comparing blues to 509 int plate.

    Edit: My post came off a bit more antagonistic than I intended, I meant to address the point that for intellect plate to be considered it must be a much larger item level differential than your post suggests.
    This so much.
    With me currently having 499 item level but still a couple of 489 purples sitting around, I would honestly not consider changing them to int plate, since the disparity wont be enough. You can say all you want, but at least IMO, stamina isn't really a strong tanking stat, and that's why I personally am a huge fan of the way that cata and MoP has molded tanks into more use of secondary stats.
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  20. #40
    If you are talking about upgrading from a 450 blue to a 489 purple then I would consider taking a haste/mastery intellect plate item. 463-489 I'd think about it, but probably pass. Any other case - don't bother. And if the Int piece has anything other than haste/mastery, disenchant it before you take it as a tank.
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