[Guardian PvP] Playing Guardian in Rated Battlegrounds Guide S12+

[Krusza]

Well, i have a question for you RBG Guardian Druids

How do you deal with offspec gear progression through the season?
I mean, for Temple of Kotmogu and Silvershard Mines

You play them as Guardian? You go Feral?
For those who go with a dps offspec
What's better? Go Feral with Guardian Conquest gear, gemmed/enchanted/reforged to tank stats, or go Feral with a Honor Set (except Weapon obviously) gemmed/enchanted/reforged to DPS as Feral?
I mean, does agility and pvp power stacking in an honor gear becomes better than a conquest gear that I will stack resi and stam, becoming a feral with lot a stam/resi and less agi?

Mines and Kotmogu I go feral spec and have 2 seperate sets (both full malevolent) for seperate gems/enchants but I do know most people who do that just use the same set but I wanted to play arena also so..

---------- Post added 2013-02-07 at 09:36 AM ----------

Post questions here so Its easier for people with the same questions to see:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...6#post20133106

[Justible]

Any changes to this since 5.3. Looking to get into PvP with the catch-up mechanic and there isn't much for Guardian PvP guides out there.

[Krusza]

Well I haven't tried tanking in 5.3 yet. It seems like it's going to be a really hard job for tanks with the 50% damage increase (apparently it's only an extra 25% due to an "undocumented" 25% existing previously) to tank specs.

With resi being scaled down to practically nothing and resi gems halfed, it looks like gemming will mainly be stamina in every slot. Also prot warriors have received a defensive stance buff (again) so it seems like guardian is going to be a lot lower in terms of viability than it was last patch.

[Krusza]

- Update

So I've tried tanking some RBGs around 2k mmr to see how it was.

I went in feral DPS spec (with the same talent choices in each tier as i used in tank) with a seperate set, FULLY stamina gemmed regardless of set bonus, enchanted etc.

We played defensive for a lot of the game, usually had 2 healers and 1 dps with good cc to peel defending me while I kited on our roof in WSG.

The enemy team had a boomkin specced tank, I don't know why but.. yeah. We ending up winning anyway with 2 caps and it seemed like if you want to tank it just needs a lot more knowledge of the maps in order to kite really well, otherwise you're dead.

Also, symbiosis a priest for dispersion. Can be used with the flag. Updating guide.

EDIT: also tried force of nature out, very useful in feral spec for base defence/peeling.

[furble]

Did you try guardian spec as well?

There has been some "maths" done and the people that do the maths still think guardian takes less dmg. Any thoughts on this?

I guess if it's fairly close and feral gives a higher dps output it could be worth the trade off?

Also any maths done for stam vs resil or are you going off feel?

There was a guy that did some maths on the official forums, relevant bits pasted below.

(i'm not allowed to post links)

us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8769297116

"guardian will still be competitive with feral for FCing anyway though. guardians will take 25% more damage than ferals from everything, but have 25% passive magic reduction in bear form from thick hide (1.25*0.75 = 0.9375, so guardians will take 6.25% less damage from magic in bear form than ferals will), and take much less physical damage in bear form than ferals do because of additional armor (roughly 67% mit vs. 45%, which amounts to 40% less damage taken) plus 12% more physical mitigation from thick hide

guardians have 6% less chance to be crit by everything than ferals from thick hide, and 5% more stamina than ferals from leather spec

the only real advantage ferals will have is that ferals outside bear form will take much less damage than guardians outside bear form, which may make a difference for flag pickups and fast cap strategies.

also ferals can make up some of the physical damage reduction difference because of extra armor during HotW"

[Krusza]

I didn't try guardian spec yet no, but in feral spec it seemed to work as I didn't get killed once (could of been a bad team, who knows) but nearly every team I have seen are either running with a warlock or dps specced tank. Another reason is that disperse is a really good defensive ability if you run with a priest for symbiosis.

I could try it out, and see the difference next time I do some RBG. But at the moment most people i've spoken to playing at 2300+ this season as well said that feral with healer defense is the best FC option out there at the moment.

Stamina vs resilience is already obvious, in full resilience gems and enchants I got 1.7% resilience. That's not even worth going for.

guardian will still be competitive with feral for FCing anyway though.

the only real advantage ferals will have is that ferals outside bear form will take much less damage than guardians outside bear form, which may make a difference for flag pickups and fast cap strategies.

also ferals can make up some of the physical damage reduction difference because of extra armor during HotW"

I don't really see a huge weighing of the scales to one side on this.

[wolvers]

Hi Crass, first of all thanks again for your guide - really helped me out during 5.2. I played as Resto until 5.1, then 5.2 i decided to try Guardian FC and enjoyed a lot. And part of my sucess came from reading your guide here.

Looking for the math shown on the link above, there's some things i'd like to debate about still going Guardian, and I would like to know if you agree:

1) The damage debuff:
First, it is not 50% more than last patch like lot of people are talking - it´s 25% (source: Holinka blue tweets: http://wow.joystiq.com/2013/04/17/pa...mage-to-tanks/). So comparing to last patches, tanks are taking +25% and other specs -5% with a flag. But by any way the question is: Tank takes 30% more damage than other specs anyway, 25 - (-5) = 30 the same way that 50 - 20 = 30. I think the point is: can tanks mitigate 30% more damage than other specs?

2) Mitigation:
With Thick Hide, Guardian Bear Form and Mastery our armor mitigate way more than 30% physical damage. So it´s clear that even in 5.3 Guardians take less damage than Ferals or other druid specs with the flag. The problem is spell damage. Thick Hide mitigate 25% spell damage. We need Guardian to mitigate 5% more damage to call it better than feral at mitigating damage now - and mitigating spall damage nowadays is more important than physical, isn't it (look at the comps most teams run nowadays, lot of more spell damage running on than physical). The point here is: is the 6% reduced critical chance thick hide provides and the Guardian's increased health pool better than those 5% more feral can mitigate?
The large health pool is good to remember that will also work better with Renewal, Might of Ursoc and Battlemaster Trinket (if you're not using the ShadoPan or LeiShen's stamina trinkets)

3) Symbiosys:
Ok, Dispersion for Ferals is way better than Bone Armor or the symbiosis version of Spell Reflect for Guardians.

4) Heart if The Wild:
The increased armor in bear for Ferals, as i already testes, will still make you armor weaker than a Guardian armor. On the other hand, Guardians can cast Rejuvenation while shapeshifted, wich is very good. Specially if you have room to go Cat Form to toss the Rejuvenation (in cat form, spell power stacks with you agility). I'm healing 72k first tick, 36k normal and 72k crits on Cat Formed Rejuvs on Guardian Spec. While Feral you can't cast Rejuv shapedhifted so it will be a WAY weaker Rejuv.

5) PvP Power: Feral self heals stack better to PvP power, but I think Guardians HotW Rejuvs are way ahead.

6) ... so, based on all of this stuff, is it possible to say one is better than another? Or at least that both are viable alternatives?

Other question i would like to ask:
- Why Wild Charge? Displacer Beast isn't better now that it can be used with flag (since 5.2)? On 5.3 kiting is even more important, and doesnt Displacer Beast makes kitting better?
- Are you running with 3 or 4 healers in 5.3?

[]'s

[Krusza]

1) I was aware the increase was an extra 25% to tanks and not an extra 50%, but 30% difference is A LOT between 2 different specs when you honestly aren't losing out on a lot besides Thick Hide, and mastery giving armor, when only a certain amount of classes deal physical damage. I think the Thick Hide loss sort of equals the damage reduction from being in a DPS spec, with the spell reduction being 25% and physical damage 12% (+armor rating) against a 30% damage reduction.

2)So what you're saying here is Thick Hide, Mastery, and the increased health pool negate 30% physical damage, I haven't tried out to see damage difference in guardian/feral with pure physical damage, but I don't think it will be a wide difference between the guardian damage reduction and the reduction of being in DPS spec.

You're right about most comps being spellcleaves now in RBG. Physical damage is still important (Rogues mainly) but yes, the overall damage you are taking will mainly be spell damage. So you're receiving an extra 5% over the thick hide by being in DPS spec. This again probably balances the two specs out on this point.

3) Getting disperse is a REALLY strong defensive cooldown and I think this makes up for some of the things you will lose out on. In terms of cooldowns we still have Wall, ursoc and barkskin so we aren't losing out any of those by being in DPS spec, and we are also getting Feral Treants by being in DPS spec, which are really good for peeling and base defense.

4) Of course the armour will still be weaker than a Guardian, but you are still receiving crit reduction while in bear form with HOTW up. You are losing out on the rejuvenations on bear form yes, but normally you can get a rejuve off while kiting in caster form (it's not spammable like it would be in bear, but it's still usable to some extent)

5)Did you test it out with battle fatigue?

6)In my opinion feral is still more viable than guardian. If you look at all the previous high guardian druids they have all also gone Feral DPS spec. a 30% damage difference is a lot, especially when stacks start building. This is what makes thick hide loss not being a real loss, getting disperse which is a really good defensive cooldown, which i would actually rather have than the guardian self healing. Feral Treants are also a good talent now, since incarnation was never really useful as a tank.

So let's weigh it out

Guardian:
30% overall damage increase
25% magic damage decrease
mastery - armor + 12% phys reduction
6% crit reduction
HOTW healing
Leather specialization 5% stamina

Feral:
30% overall damage decrease
Crit reduction with HOTW
Armour increase with HOTW
HOTW healing in caster form
Symbiosis (Dispersion) - 90% damage decrease 3 min CD, usable while stunned.
Force of Nature - Treants (stuns, 3 charges 20 sec recharge)

Wild Charge / Displacer - I use wild charge over displacer beast mainly because it has more usefulness in different situations. It can be used to jump up to a team member on the roof in your base in warsong gulch when kiting, you can also use it for a speed increase while in aquatic form in Twin Peaks. It also has half the cooldown of displacer beast. You won't get the movement speed increase from displacer beast at 4+ stacks, and essentially you just get a teleport. Travel form has a leap on half the cooldown with Wild Charge.

3 healers still, usually 1 or 2 on defence with a dps to peel when they push.

[wolvers]

I agree with almost everything.
Done some more testing, trying in many ways find arguements that Guardians are ok but the true is that, well, analyzing: I can't be a tank to mitigate damage (that already was true before, now it's even more true): outside of cooldowns and without kitting... I die really fast - and this is feral or guardian.
Before 5.3, I always liked the speedcap playstyle, and only agreed to play without rushing offence or strong defence kitting when we had a realy good and trusty (I could say overpowered too) offense. I'm still readapting to how dynamic CTF maps become, but it's clear that without kiting either I will die or I will waste mine and team cooldowns too soon that will cost us a cap... so what Ferals brings is really more atractive.

I agree with you in Feral beeing more viable. Both on what you've said and on what I tested on RBGs moments ago. And thank you very much on answering topic by topic, really nice to read your answers on these points. I was still skeptical about this DPS FC stuff, and hoping something will come from sky and bring tanks back (lol, I strongly disagree with the changes... but that's not the point in the topic, nevermind). Well, for the little I played till now, and of course also based on what you say, seems like Feral and Guardians are kinda close, but taking less Spell damage and having dispersion + all of guardian cd's + stunning treants + hotw if needed is what in the end is making Ferals ahead, not the math (cause the math can bring feral and guardians very close to each other now).
Tried both, and, for the gameplay that I will need to be doing, Feral really seems to be the spec to go.

But I still believe that displacer beast can be way good (even if I can only count on the teleport). I've got your point, and maybe i just got too much used in displacer beasting. After I adapt my and my team playstyle to the new dynamic that CTF maps become, I will give Wild Charge another shots.


I'd like to add another question also:

- Do you defend bases (eye/gilneas/ab) with Guardian or Feral?
Currently I'm doing node defense on feral with displacer/NS/thyfum/treants/vortex/hotw + pala symb, if i bubble i change to shaman symb (ghost wolves) and then I pick bubble again from the pally 5min after. I just dont like not beeing able to spam clone as feral. Also i pick Glyph of Fae Silence these maps.
If there's a need to spam strong aoe in a node i do like a "rotation": Bear Form, Thrash, [Mangle if <15 rage, since Swipe costs rage to ferals], Swipe, Cat Form, Swipe, Swipe, Bear Form... repeat... and got room for a instant clone, or to stun with a treant someone casting or healing. Other than that I keep rooting and cloning on cd and stoping caps... And doing so my dps in feral while doing node defense is a complete crap - is it too bad for the team? It's working, but I always questioning myself "shouldn't I do more DPS on feral, even with a defensive build?"; My work is only avoiding the cap until my cover comes, and in this build the node defense is granted even against 2 or 3 villains. But I will never win an x1 battle in this build.

[furble]

Great info on Druid FCing, I'd built a guardian FC honour set before the 5.3 changes, but it seems this is wasted now.

I haven't played resto at all this expac, but just wondering how do resto FC's go?

Assuming the resto FC is not taking the spot of another healer, e.g. you'll still have a healer and dps with you in base protecting you.

They have tools like charging up mushrooms, being able to place mushrooms to wild charge to, ironbark?

Think they're viable?

[wolvers]

Great info on Druid FCing, I'd built a guardian FC honour set before the 5.3 changes, but it seems this is wasted now.
I haven't played resto at all this expac, but just wondering how do resto FC's go?
Assuming the resto FC is not taking the spot of another healer, e.g. you'll still have a healer and dps with you in base protecting you.
They have tools like charging up mushrooms, being able to place mushrooms to wild charge to, ironbark?
Think they're viable?

I'm not liking Resto. At least for now, I'm very skeptical. I haven't considered trying it, and the ones I faced have done nothing in order to change my mind.
I think that the defenses you get from simbyosis won't help that much, they're not life savers like dispersion (you can't ice block with the flag).
You can charge up mushrooms, but I prefer to be kiting around and beeing peeled than trusting on stationary charged mushrooms, I think its powerful use will not come in hand that often too. You have Ironbark reducing 20% incoming damage every 30s, but you lose Survival Instincts as Resto. Maybe you will also need Glyph of Blooming for a good preemptive heal burst, what glyph would you give away: Prowl, Ursoc or Barkskin?
Another thing is about gear: if you gem full stamina and go reforging to dodge, your heals will be weaker; if you gem healing stats and go mastery reforge, your survival will be compromised. Remember that Bear Form is not like Warriors Defensive Stance or DK's Blood Presence that reduces every incoming damage; Bear Form only increases Stamina and Armor - it's good, but don't overlook at it.
Tree of Life will be a good defensive burst, but how much good is that? It also will only increases your amor... it will increase your heals and make them very powerful and spammable also, but you will need to also kite, then go Tree to hot hot hot you and throw Regrowths... when you are beeing zerged you can lose lot of mana just to survive as oposed to kitting which is free. Again, speaking of gear: your heals will be enhanced in Tree of Life form, but you are out of Bear so max HP will decrease... and self heals will be weaker as a Resto FC than would be as a Resto pure healer.
Still speaking of gear, you will need the 2pieces Feral/Guardian pvp set bonus to increase 15% run speed outdoors. That will drop your heals also. Maybe you can be swapping gears: one to run, one to heal... but you can't change gear in combat (except for weapons). Another stuff about gear is that a Feral (or a Guardian...) can also take the Tier 14 2 piece bonus that will reduce Might of Ursoc cooldown in 60s, making 2pc t14 + 2pc pvp really good. If you do this as a Resto, you will lose more healing stats... will you be changing gear? As survival + kiting > self healing, i think we can agree that Feral > Resto as FC.

I played few games on 5.3, that's not final words... but the tough groups i faced that were 4 healing with a heal FC were running a Mistweaver Monk FC.

[Krusza]

-Wolvers

I defend bases in DPS spec with Charge, NS, Typhoon, Force of Nature and HOTW.

I have 2 sets of gear (1 for feral arena, 1 for RBG tanking) so I don't normally have a problem killing people. Normally the way to defend a base in tank spec is to keep range and use moonfire to stop them capping, so they can't get cc on you if it's a priest they can't fear you, if it's a rogue they can't blind you (and with range, they can't cap in time of a sap) warriors also can't fear and it will make it difficult for locks. So the idea when defending is to just stop them capping for as long as possible until someone gets to you if you are in tank spec. If a rogue tries to bomb cap, just use typhoon to knock him out. Even if you get cc'd once, you still have trinket. So by using that method you should never lose a base against 1/2 people in a short time. Bubble for feral also breaks cc and makes you immune to it while it's up unless it gets dispelled. Against multiple people attacking or fighting for a base, I'm usually just sitting on the flag and attacking whoever tries to cap it.

And yes, i have the 2 set bonus from the PvE set at the moment for the ursoc CD reduction which is really good.

[furble]

Thanks Wolvers, awesome info.

[Alzu]

Stamina vs resilience is already obvious, in full resilience gems and enchants I got 1.7% resilience. That's not even worth going for..

But it isn't obvious. With 0 resilience, you take 35% of the targets damage dealt due to base resilience. If you get 1.7% more resilience, it doesn't translate into 1.7% less damage taken. At that point, you'll take 33.3% of the original damage. There you get 33.3%/35% equals roughly 0.95 meaning the you'll take 5% less damage with resilience gems.

Now I don't know how much stamina are you getting but I just wanted to point that it's not that straight forward. With maximum possible resilience, you'd take ~11% less damage than everyone else. You can read more here, http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/23...rrently-think/

[wolvers]

But it isn't obvious. With 0 resilience, you take 35% of the targets damage dealt due to base resilience. If you get 1.7% more resilience, it doesn't translate into 1.7% less damage taken. At that point, you'll take 33.3% of the original damage. There you get 33.3%/35% equals roughly 0.95 meaning the you'll take 5% less damage with resilience gems.

Now I don't know how much stamina are you getting but I just wanted to point that it's not that straight forward. With maximum possible resilience, you'd take ~11% less damage than everyone else. You can read more here, http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/23...rrently-think/

That topic is generalizing, not talking about FCs.
Before 5.3, that was already lot of discussion about how much "effective health" you will have when factor like HP, PvP Power and PvP Resilience combines in a battle (see http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6490579264, there are some charts included).

The point is: Druid increases 20% stamina in Bear Form. Fully Stamina gemmed, I have 636k now in Bear Form, as Feral, when im buffed with 10% Stamina from a Priest or Lock. This is WAY more HP than ~11% more I had before without focusing all stamina gems. With a Battle Standard, I go around 700k.
Also, higher HP means a stronger Might of Ursoc, Renewal and Healthstone (from a Lock).
With the standard + cooldowns blown, if you have a priest healer to change healths with you they will need to do like 2-3M damage to kill you, excluding healing. And remember you will be willing to kite, not to remain stationary taking damage.
(Also, as i won't need PvP power, I can equip with PvE gear slots like neck, gloves, belt... and gem for even more stamina)

I think this is, at least for Druid FCs, where Stamina wins now.

[furble]

Fully Stamina gemmed, I have 636k now in Bear Form, as Feral, when im buffed with 10% Stamina from a Priest or Lock. This is WAY more HP than ~11% more I had before without focusing all stamina gems. With a Battle Standard, I go around 700k.

700k HP feral bear O.o

Can you post an armoury link pls?

[wolvers]

700k HP feral bear O.o

Can you post an armoury link pls?

Don't take my armory for a good example right now cause I'm still reforged to mastery like last season, but I'm Öma @ Nemesis (ally) and Öma @ Azralon (horde).
I took a shot:
With a Battle Standard, gone 723k in a Feral Bear. Here's the screenshot. And that was on my worgen druid, so no racial hp boost that my tauren have.
I joined a random bg to take the shot. You can see a food table back there, but I did not ate it; the only HP boosts there are the ones allowed in rated matched (look at buffs I marked: fortitude + bear form + battle standard).
I also marked my blue stamina gems, the pve trinket, and my spec: Feral.

[Balduvian]

I disagree on quite a few things in this guide (might also be because it isn't fully updated yet). Nice one for beginners though!

Also, no offense but may I ask who is actually posting this? Always nice to see wether the information is coming from an actually useful source or from a 1337 king

[Krusza]

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...C3%A1ss/simple

and what do you disagree on exactly?

and yes im still changing a few parts

[Balduvian]

- Mastery is definitely better per point than dodge is, I don't see any reason to reforge to dodge. In fact I'd go for crit over dodge any time as well.
- Mass Entanglement has a 30 sec. CD. I guess you simply overlooked this. Typhoon is still better anyway.
- Force of Nature is good, but Incarnation is definitely not out of the question.
- If you go for the Force of Nature build, naturally you do not take Bash. However, Disorienting Roar is by far better than Ursol's Vortex (Especially as Guardian).
- Going for full resilience does not just give you a 1.7% bonus reduction. It gives you a 9-11% extra damage reduction compared to people who do not stack up on resillience (full explanation here: http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/23...rrently-think/).
- PvE gear might give you a nice set bonus, but your overall pressure will still be less due to the PvP Power loss. This depends on your playstyle though, and personally I can see the point in getting the 2 set-piece as you mentioned as well.