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  1. #1

    Heroic Spirit Kings help (First transition?)

    So we just started progression on this, didn't do too many attempts (6-7?).

    Seems like the first transition is kinda rough, as you have a lot of stuff going on at the same time. Originally we thought to stop DPS at 32% till the shield (as was suggested in a few videos), then burn hero and attempt to kill him before the first rain of arrows.

    We never really got that far, as people would just die in the clusterfuck that was annihilate, volley, massive attack, and flanking orders coming out in succession.

    A guildie suggested that we stop DPS and wait until a flank until we push and burn hero as opposed to a shield, as the shield is up for less than half a second if our Priest dispels correctly (which he was doing). He also thought we should pull both bosses to the wall when they're both out, and immediately run behind Subetai as a group when he casts volley. Do both of these things sound right?

    Also, does anyone else have any tips to offer for the rest of the fight? We only raid 5-6 hours a week so any tips would be massively helpful.

    Thanks in advance!

    -Vedni

    Oh, and if it matters, our guild is 5/16 H, mostly around 492-498 geared, and here is our comp:

    Prot Warrior
    Disc Priest
    Resto Druid
    Holy Paladin

    Enhance Shaman
    Windwalker Monk
    Frost DK
    Arcane/Fire Mage
    Destruction Warlock
    Assasination Rogue (could be a BM Hunter in the near future, but for the time being it probably won't be one)

    Again, thanks.
    Last edited by Vedni; 2013-01-27 at 08:03 PM.

  2. #2
    Phase one you nuke the crap out of it.

    Ideally, you'll be at 50-55% health before the first Flanking orders (This is a good DPS check). Everyone should use Personal CDs, Pots, etc on the pull. (Not Blood Lust, save this till 3rd boss 30% health going into last boss).

    You avoid flanking order, hold still at this position till Shield/Annihilate. Move back to center of room during Annihilate. This should be going into 30% health now before the 2nd flanking order and the next boss comes out and will volley in 5 seconds. Have disc priest lay a bubble before volley and move out of it, avoid Flanking order, Nuke boss. Stun Sleight of Hand, Avoid annihilate and go to star, spread for Arrows which should be in about 4-10 seconds.

    Easy peasy from there on out. If you want to see more then use lust after first Shield/Annihilate to nuke down past 30%.

    Just so you see it, here's a fellow guild on our server that had a video of basically the same thing.
    Last edited by Defaulty; 2013-01-27 at 04:51 PM.

  3. #3
    To our group, the first transition seems to be the hardest because of everyone needing to stack and the volley 5 seconds after the second boss spawns. We found that the easiest method was to wait for the second flanking order to lessen the movement required. We then pop lust and nuke the first boss. When the second does his volley we all shift to directly behind him. (so pretty much as you suggest, except we just tank them in the mid)

    I'm a prot warrior and I save my shattering throw in case he does his second shield and if you start casting right after he does you will get his shield off right after it goes up without any damage to anyone.

  4. #4
    Running 1 tank 2 healers you should have too much dps at this point in gear levels, you should all stop dps at around 35% to wait for the upcoming flanking, you do not want that going off with the 2 bosses up. After that bring him below 30 and pop hero, make sure the first boss has his back turned to Subetai so that they are both facing the same direction straight off, that way Subetai does volley first, you move behind, then Qiang does Annihilate and you move back. After those two abilities you get just 1 shield on each boss and it's a smooth burn from there.

    If you are not having enough dps that you actually have to stop and wait for the flanking before 30%, then chances are you are gonna get butt fucked by the first rain of arrows, unless you pull out some epic burst.

    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  5. #5
    The thing that helped us a lot was to just 2 tank/2 heal the fight with 2 protection warriors, with only the tanks soaking the cleave. It does put a lot of stress on the tanks, but if you have good tanks you should consider it. Added bonus to this was that we had 2 dragon roars for breaking maddening shout.

  6. #6
    Our dps is not amazing, but its decent Our last Gara'jal kill came ~15 seconds before enrage while 3 healing, and our top 2 DPS (Shaman/Monk) both got the heroic fist weapon off of him. Either way I don't think DPS will be a major issue since we overgear it a fair amount.

    Would you all say that the first transition is one of the hardest parts of the fight? Looking through the rest of the mechanics, if we don't screw up shields, I don't think it'll be too rough for our raid.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Vedni View Post
    Our dps is not amazing, but its decent Our last Gara'jal kill came ~15 seconds before enrage while 3 healing, and our top 2 DPS (Shaman/Monk) both got the heroic fist weapon off of him. Either way I don't think DPS will be a major issue since we overgear it a fair amount.

    Would you all say that the first transition is one of the hardest parts of the fight? Looking through the rest of the mechanics, if we don't screw up shields, I don't think it'll be too rough for our raid.
    The first and second bosses are whats going to determine if you hit enrage or not.

    The third and fourth have such a hard "stop and go" transition that if you're lacking on the front end of the encounter you're going to have a rough time carrying through. The show stopper at the end of the encounter is when the last boss goes crazy and if you're interrupting/Soothing him at the correct times. Once he goes above 50 power, then you're going to wreck yourself and you should let all crazy thoughts/enrage go through to get out of the crazed transition.

    Raid CD is crucial for Maddening shout at this point and if you get a Shadow add at this point it can really wreck you guys.

    But I normally have my Shadow Priest/Hunter focus the shadow add while rest stay on the boss, Arrows are killed by range only, and other than that it's pretty simple.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Defaulty View Post
    Phase one you nuke the crap out of it.

    Ideally, you'll be at 50-55% health before the first Flanking orders (This is a good DPS check). Everyone should use Personal CDs, Pots, etc on the pull. (Not Blood Lust, save this till 3rd boss 30% health going into last boss).

    You avoid flanking order, hold still at this position till Shield/Annihilate. Move back to center of room during Annihilate. This should be going into 30% health now before the 2nd flanking order and the next boss comes out and will volley in 5 seconds. Have disc priest lay a bubble before volley and move out of it, avoid Flanking order, Nuke boss. Stun Sleight of Hand, Avoid annihilate and go to star, spread for Arrows which should be in about 4-10 seconds.

    Easy peasy from there on out. If you want to see more then use lust after first Shield/Annihilate to nuke down past 30%.
    ]


    i dont agree with this..

    you have enough DPS normaly with that GEAR
    if you realy want to jump the ugly part
    nuke boss and use cooldowns when the 2nd boss arrives at 30% . we used our cooldowns to kill him fast once he was @30%

    Normaly then you have about 6-9 sec to spread out and get the boss in the middle of the room for "rain of arrows" that will allways be in that order ^^

    Dont forget you can Grip someone pinned down with your priest or give him melee bubble if he gets pinned down unlucky in the volley



    Its not realy much more to that for boss 1+2

  9. #9
    We use cool downs+ lust after the first shield. I recommend you do the same, the rest of the transitions are simple. This should result in only 1 volley/rain while both bosses are up.


    We do it this way because by the time subetai is active and volleying the first boss is sub 20% health. Then we BoP the pinned arrow unless it's our mage and dodge flanking, take care of shield and finish the first boss.
    Last edited by Riptide; 2013-01-27 at 06:10 PM.

  10. #10
    Use bloodlust on last transition, not first. Use personal cooldowns on first transition. 3 heals is overkilling it, I suggest you 2 tank 2 heal it, can be done with 1 tank, but having a 2nd tank made it really easy for last transition where our tank was getting destroyed.

  11. #11
    Drop to two healers. There's no need for three on this fight, and the fight will go MUCH more smoothly with an extra DPS. Don't get a second tank as others have suggested. No reason to.

    The first transition is by far the most difficult of the fight, and is the most difficult part of the fight in total.

    We just burn hero at the start and stop just before the boss hits 30% (we usually stop at around 38% and let dots tick him down to around 32%), which is around the time of the first flanking. From there, we wait until it passes and sit at that position until annihilate goes off, at which point we reposition him in the center of the room so cameras dont get fucked up. At this point we push him and burn him down as quickly as possible.

    At most, you should get the Volley, and maybe the Rain of Arrows. If you get abilities past that, you need figure something else out with your DPS. The first Volley can be avoided by stacking the Arrow guy (can't remember his name) on top of the raid group. He will abruptly change the direction he's facing as he's about cast Volley. The raid then simply takes a step in the other direction, and the tank moves out of the way to compensate, and you're fine.

    Rain of Arrows is a bit more complicated. Your ranged and healers will need to spread, then immediately come back in. BoP whoever gets hit by it, as you really don't have time to burn through them at this point. Tanks and melee should pop cooldowns to eat the one or two massive attacks that will go off on just them during this time. Use the same strat for Pillage if you get it, but you REALLY shouldn't get to that point.

    After this point, the fight becomes much more easier and feels much more in control.

    Good luck.

  12. #12
    yeah the hardest part about thqat transition is the rain of arrows that comes when subetai hits, you have to spread no matter what, we always ended up just about killing the first boss by the time that happened so we never had issues. The volley thing though, your group just has to move together, it's easier if you have the first boss over by sub's spawn that way you can just rotate around for the volley and not have to worry about smashes/anihilates.

  13. #13
    This is all good information - waiting for an annihilate at low % before lusting and going all out to nuke the first boss is good.

    One thing I will add, have your shaman pop AG + ascendance during the volley to counter act the damage going out from ppl being hit by volley #1 and the massive attacks of the boss, he'll have everyone covered during that 10second window for healing, making everything a lot less stressful in general. Since you're all probably quite well geared, I imagine the boss won't take too long to burn down

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    Use bloodlust on last transition, not first. Use personal cooldowns on first transition. 3 heals is overkilling it, I suggest you 2 tank 2 heal it, can be done with 1 tank, but having a 2nd tank made it really easy for last transition where our tank was getting destroyed.
    What's your reasoning for this? Do you have bad interrupts or something, why do you need a lust at this point. The only chance of rng deaths are p1->p2. Everything else is 100% avoidable.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    Use bloodlust on last transition, not first. Use personal cooldowns on first transition. 3 heals is overkilling it, I suggest you 2 tank 2 heal it, can be done with 1 tank, but having a 2nd tank made it really easy for last transition where our tank was getting destroyed.
    Why use blood lust in the last transition? There shouldn't be any rough tank damage there.

    BL is usually popped in first transition because alot of rng factors can screw you up there.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
    What's your reasoning for this? Do you have bad interrupts or something, why do you need a lust at this point. The only chance of rng deaths are p1->p2. Everything else is 100% avoidable.
    Getting Maddening shout + orb = instant wipe. The goal is to make sure the guy is down before any maddening shout.

    Plus the shadow orb guy hits like a truck.. never had any issue with first transition, unless you don't kill the first king before the pinning arrow. It's obviously crucial that he's dead before that because you will have a stacked group all pinned down.

    Obviously I can understand groups who did this fight in 489 gear had to use blood lust in first transition.
    Last edited by Spotnick; 2013-01-28 at 07:22 AM.

  17. #17
    We uses lust at the first transiotion since that's the only really hard part of the fight, most of the time, since they removed the rng order the bosses got active, if you just manage to handle that transition you have a kill.

  18. #18
    My group was much higher average ilvl on our kill (about 495ish raidwide) and we used lust at the first transition. Zian isn't actually that bad, he's a nice breather for my raid after having to deal with subetai and Qiang (both of which have VERY rng elements that like to do nasty things to your raid). We always manage to kill zian before the first maddening shout as well so even on the off chance when we're burning meng that we get an add, there's a big timer that says "Hey add is about to spawn" since they spawn at a much slower rate once zian's dead.

    A strong raid cooldown during maddening shout will help keep your raid from falling over unless healers are just so far behind (which they shouldn't be, there's next to 0 raid damage once its just meng unless its a cowardice phase). We 2 healed, 2 tanked the fight (makes transitions much smoother) and really once we got past the first transition hurdle, it wasn't that bad unless someone did something royally stupid (i.e. trigger zian's shield).

    Your first big dps check though, is burning qiang from 30% to 0 before Subetei does his Pinning Arrows. If you're still stacked when he does it, its as good as a wipe. Every available cooldown should be used for this (in fact we tell our dps to not waste their big cooldowns until we go for this push after his second shield because we're just going to end up waiting longer if they do). As long as you push this quickly, don't get eaten by the first volley, and don't have a bunch of people getting debuffed by subtei (because you hit him during sleight of hand while he's not stunned) dps shouldn't be too much of an issue. The current set up gives you a somewhat lenient enrage timer after gara'jal.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    Getting Maddening shout + orb = instant wipe. The goal is to make sure the guy is down before any maddening shout.

    Plus the shadow orb guy hits like a truck.. never had any issue with first transition, unless you don't kill the first king before the pinning arrow. It's obviously crucial that he's dead before that because you will have a stacked group all pinned down.

    Obviously I can understand groups who did this fight in 489 gear had to use blood lust in first transition.
    Disc + HoT based resto druid should be ace here. No need for the hpala.

    If one fellow has orb and maddening comes the kiter must keep kiting.

    Lust on first transition so it remains as small as possible. After that, its an easy fight. 489 is basically what OP is having. I never wiped here from orb with maddening btw.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Disc + HoT based resto druid should be ace here. No need for the hpala.

    If one fellow has orb and maddening comes the kiter must keep kiting.

    Lust on first transition so it remains as small as possible. After that, its an easy fight. 489 is basically what OP is having. I never wiped here from orb with maddening btw.
    Yea, never an issue here either.

    Sounds like a case of bad play if p3->p4 is a problem. All it takes is stack - kiter and then exo/judgment from a ret breaks those that are unable to stack so the rest of the ranged shouldn't have trouble. Especially with the 2 best heal types for that kind of damage, which is only a small and predictable amount.
    Last edited by Riptide; 2013-01-28 at 08:31 PM.

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