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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    Also on my server the top guilds in wrath were 25, the top guilds in cata were 25 and the top guilds in MOP are 25, all the same guilds. Anecdotal evidence is great, don't ya think?
    What realm?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 04:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nereuslol View Post
    You are one seriously depressing guy, or someone must've screwed you over pretty good. Don't give us your shitty attitude just because you're butthurt -_- He's asking for advice, and all you come up with is blizzard-bashing. If you don't like LFR, don't do it (omgomg, I need lewts!)
    If you're as good a raider as you seem to be, you'd be done with heroics before the lfr is even released.
    I went through exactly what he's going through, so did all other guilds on my server. Together we tried everything we could to make people show up. There are no tricks, that's what I'm saying. The raid model and content is not motivating high quality raiders to make the commitment for progression raiding. That's just how it is. It happened to all the 25 man guilds on my server from friendly, light-schedule guilds to old, dedicated raiding guilds -- it also happened to the very top guild in the game, Paragon.
    Last edited by Martoshi; 2013-01-28 at 04:32 PM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    What realm?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 04:31 PM ----------



    I went through exactly what he's going through, so did all other guilds on my server. Together we tried everything we could to make people show up. There are no tricks, that's what I'm saying. The raid model and content is not motivating high quality raiders to make the commitment for progression raiding. That's just how it is.
    Burning Blade.

    You can't force people who don't want to raid to raid though. You went through the exact same thing he did? Why do you people transfer off realms to play with friends who don't want to show up for raids? Some of their core group stopped showing for raids in MOP, this happens in every single guild especially at the start of a new expac and ESPECIALLY in 25 man. Why then do you take social (and bad, his words) players who don't want to raid into raiding when they feel forced to? You guys seem to be doing it wrong. Get people who WANT to raid, plenty exist. Don't try and force guildies and friends to fill your raid spots when shit goes south. Thats just a horrible, horrible idea.
    He also talked about doing normal DS and then falling apart in MOP, that's not exactly what I would call high quality raiding. You could pug 8/8 heroic DS pretty easily towards the end, forget normal modes. Seems to be you are just blaming a terrible raid model (what EXACTLY is terrible about it, I'm curious) because you're having a hard time finding good raiders and not blame the actual "raiders" you're recruiting. It happens, even top guilds go through dry spells. The solution isn't to fill your raid with shitty friends who play the game socially to chat; quality raiders are still out there and still love raiding they're not dead.
    Last edited by Aceshigh; 2013-01-28 at 04:42 PM.

  3. #23
    Field Marshal Algot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    Yes it does. If the raiding was exciting and fulfilling, people would be lining up for the raid spots.
    Believe it or not, but raiding is both exciting and fulfilling for a lot of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    Thanks for the tip. I, and the other officers, spent most of Cata fighting to maintain a roster. And it wasn't a low end raiding guild, it was a guild with roots going back to vanilla that had cleared almost all raid content Blizzard had released. The reality of running a good guild is that there will be churn. People grow up, their priorities change, they get bored, they get jobs, etc. etc. There is no such thing as "finding the right people" that will stick around forever. The lifeblood of a guild is constant recruitment to counter the natural drain.
    I never said that there are people who will be sticking around forever. But people leaving after a tier of raiding, or people who doesn't attend to raids, need to be replaced, right? Finding people who are more likely to stay for up to a full expansion is possible though. My guild has had around 5-6 people who has been around without (longer) breaks since the end of WotLK. That 'core team' has been replaced with a few generations of people, a few has stuck around since mid Cataclysm. Some are still being replaced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    In Cata the drain became a flood and the quality and quantity of recruitment pool crashed. And it wasn't just my guild. It was every single 25 man raiding guild on my server. All of which failed. Every single one. Even the one that started in Everquest and had yearly meetings. It's not like all of us suddenly forgot how to run a guild, many of us had done it for a better part of a decade. The cold harsh reality is that the current raiding model and content does not motivate that kinds of people that are needed for high quality raiding. All that's really left in WoW is 10 man "raiding" with guilds that are lucky to survive a single tier, only to reform in another combination and fail the next tier.
    I have seen and heard Cataclysm burning out entire factions on various servers. Not the case on my server though, guess we got lucky



    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    I do not believe that for one second. What you're describing is just too far from reality.
    I joined a good friends guild at the very end of WotLK. A few more friends tagged along. The 5 people who joined the guild had all played together for 2-3 years before then. Anyway, not going to give you the whole story. You couldn't care less, amirite?

    We never reformed, nor did we die mid Cataclysm. We found new people. Maybe every 5th or so was the 'right kind' and stuck around for a long time. As of this minute, we're a few people short of having a decent roster again, but the same core team of officers and loyal raiders are still there

    I wonder why you would think I'd bullshit anyone on this subject? What would be my motive you think?
    Last edited by Algot; 2013-01-28 at 07:33 PM.

  4. #24
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    You can't convince people to join the raid if they don't want to, you have to replace them with more motivated raiders or find a new guild.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Algot View Post
    Believe it or not, but raiding is both exciting and fulfilling for a lot of people.
    I don't need to believe it, I know for a fact that it wasn't true on my server. It's all fine and good talking about every 5th recruit being the 'right kind', until you get one shitty app per month, and that is between all the guilds on the realm. Because that was the reality of what Cata did to my medium population server and the over dozen well established, well managed 25 man guilds.

    Let me guess, you're on a high population realm. What happened is that as the new raid model and crappy content started killing guilds, the few remaining skilled raiders started to migrate to a handful of high population servers. If you're on one of those, you won't have a clue what's happening in the majority of the game. But just wait, the same fundamental forces that wiped out raiding on the majority of servers will inevitably hit the high population ones as well, it's only a matter of time.

  6. #26
    Field Marshal Algot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    I don't need to believe it, I know for a fact that it wasn't true on my server. It's all fine and good talking about every 5th recruit being the 'right kind', until you get one shitty app per month, and that is between all the guilds on the realm. Because that was the reality of what Cata did to my medium population server and the over dozen well established, well managed 25 man guilds.

    Let me guess, you're on a high population realm. What happened is that as the new raid model and crappy content started killing guilds, the few remaining skilled raiders started to migrate to a handful of high population servers. If you're on one of those, you won't have a clue what's happening in the majority of the game. But just wait, the same fundamental forces that wiped out raiding on the majority of servers will inevitably hit the high population ones as well, it's only a matter of time.
    I believe you. And no, I don't have a clue what happens on the low/medium populated realms, but I can understand it's a completely different story over there.

    I doubt anything will be wiped out in the near future though. New tier around the corner. New cycles of guilds and players lining up to get a piece of the action.

    The game won't last forever, but I think that deserves a completely different thread

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    What realm?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 04:31 PM ----------



    I went through exactly what he's going through, so did all other guilds on my server. Together we tried everything we could to make people show up. There are no tricks, that's what I'm saying. The raid model and content is not motivating high quality raiders to make the commitment for progression raiding. That's just how it is. It happened to all the 25 man guilds on my server from friendly, light-schedule guilds to old, dedicated raiding guilds -- it also happened to the very top guild in the game, Paragon.
    I wouldn't raid with you. Who want's to put up with people that have attitudes like that...? bleh

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Brash View Post
    A bit of back story:

    I transferred servers to raid with a couple friends at the end of Cataclysm. We completed normal mode DS with some help from LFR loot, since we started so late. When it came to raiding in MoP our core group stopped showing for raids and we took some of the more social players in the guild, I say social because casual is NOT a good term for bad, neither is social but these guys/gals really only play to chat and do the occasional bg. Needless to say we aren't downing bosses, most of the social players dont really want to be there they just come because we ask.

    Downing bosses isn't an issue and most of the time the core group is on daily they just seem to be less interested in raids. I guess recruiting is the most obvious solution but on low pop servers the pool of players is pretty limited.

    So, to get to the point. Do you guys have tricks or advice for getting raiders to show up and/or on time?
    I was on an extremely low pop server during Cataclysm. And recruiting was very tough. During H DS progression, getting people to show up or show up on time, or stay for the entire raid was like pulling teeth. So realizing we couldn't stay on that realm and survive, we moved to a heavier populated server. And it saved our asses. And that may be your strongest option.

    Being in a raiding guild is more than just raiding when you want to. Sometimes you have to realize that others are relying on you as well. And this is what most people can't grasp. When new content hits, everyone and their mother comes out of the woodwork killing each other for a raid spot. But once some time passes, the "sorry guys, my dog is in the hospital" comments start coming up. You'll notice that rarely anything ever comes up when content is new. You need to always be looking at recruitment. You have to have a bench. Not designated players, but more than you would need. And think about moving servers.
    Perfect example of why "community" forums are poisonous to the health of a development team. These developers are wasting hundreds of hours trying to stem the tide of incessant bitchery that would never, ever abate so long as these entitled, unfortunate human beings don't get their way.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by asharia View Post
    I wouldn't raid with you. Who want's to put up with people that have attitudes like that...? bleh
    Stating facts is an "attitude" now?

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    Burning Blade.

    You can't force people who don't want to raid to raid though. You went through the exact same thing he did? Why do you people transfer off realms to play with friends who don't want to show up for raids? Some of their core group stopped showing for raids in MOP, this happens in every single guild especially at the start of a new expac and ESPECIALLY in 25 man. Why then do you take social (and bad, his words) players who don't want to raid into raiding when they feel forced to? You guys seem to be doing it wrong. Get people who WANT to raid, plenty exist. Don't try and force guildies and friends to fill your raid spots when shit goes south. Thats just a horrible, horrible idea.
    He also talked about doing normal DS and then falling apart in MOP, that's not exactly what I would call high quality raiding. You could pug 8/8 heroic DS pretty easily towards the end, forget normal modes. Seems to be you are just blaming a terrible raid model (what EXACTLY is terrible about it, I'm curious) because you're having a hard time finding good raiders and not blame the actual "raiders" you're recruiting. It happens, even top guilds go through dry spells. The solution isn't to fill your raid with shitty friends who play the game socially to chat; quality raiders are still out there and still love raiding they're not dead.
    Smartest reply yet.
    Perfect example of why "community" forums are poisonous to the health of a development team. These developers are wasting hundreds of hours trying to stem the tide of incessant bitchery that would never, ever abate so long as these entitled, unfortunate human beings don't get their way.

  11. #31
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    There's a reason only about 10% of the playerbase ever raids or ever HAS raided before, and you can't chalk all of that up to lack of skill or "not wanting to invest time", or whatever.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Algot View Post
    The problem doesn't lie with Blizzard or the 'raiding game'.

    Try to recruit more people. Running a low end raiding guild isn't very appealing in the long run, but if you can find the right people that will bite through no matter what, you are home.

    Find out why people aren't showing up. Do you yell at people for messing up? Do you give up without any progress and get absolutely nothing done?

    Fix what's broken and get new loyal members. There are plenty of good, loyal players out there searching for a nice atmosphere.

    (Speaking from own experience).
    It does. They created multiple difficulties which is really not motivating.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-29 at 11:31 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Starfighter View Post
    I was on an extremely low pop server during Cataclysm. And recruiting was very tough. During H DS progression, getting people to show up or show up on time, or stay for the entire raid was like pulling teeth. So realizing we couldn't stay on that realm and survive, we moved to a heavier populated server. And it saved our asses. And that may be your strongest option.

    Being in a raiding guild is more than just raiding when you want to. Sometimes you have to realize that others are relying on you as well. And this is what most people can't grasp. When new content hits, everyone and their mother comes out of the woodwork killing each other for a raid spot. But once some time passes, the "sorry guys, my dog is in the hospital" comments start coming up. You'll notice that rarely anything ever comes up when content is new. You need to always be looking at recruitment. You have to have a bench. Not designated players, but more than you would need. And think about moving servers.
    Those comments show up because content becomes very boring when you have done it on three different difficulties. And when your guild then also decides to farm some more gear which your raid team doesn't need to progress you can get very sick of raiding.
    If you expect people to stay after clearing the same boring raid for the 20th time instead of focusing purely on progression then you should really think again. It's also Blizzards fault for creating this environment where all your raiders have already seen the whole raid multiple times. It is not motivating to go through it that many times.[COLOR="red"]
    Last edited by Gilian; 2013-01-29 at 10:41 AM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    There's a reason only about 10% of the playerbase ever raids or ever HAS raided before, and you can't chalk all of that up to lack of skill or "not wanting to invest time", or whatever.
    Because they don't actually want to raid/use skill/invest time?

  14. #34
    Herald of the Titans Gobra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpocrates View Post
    recruit real raiders or join a real raiding guild. if you gota trick people to show up than you are already wasting your time
    Like this guy says really, You cannot trick people to come on and raid, You simply can't, because they won't raid, if they wanted to raid then you would be already, They're not raiders, if you want to raid then get some more members
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark
    They say that the best weapon is the one you never have to fire. I respectfully disagree. I prefer the weapon you only have to fire once. That's how Dad did it, that's how America does it, and it's worked out pretty well so far. I present to you the newest in Stark Industries' Freedom line. Find an excuse to let one of these off the chain, and I personally guarantee, the bad guys won't even wanna come out of their caves. Ladies and gentlemen, for your consideration... the Jericho.

  15. #35
    If I've learned something over these years as a raider, raid leader and GM it's that DONT RAID WITH FRIENDS.

    People suck, finding people suck, everything about being an officer/GM/RL suck, dont do it!
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  16. #36
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    Because they don't actually want to raid/use skill/invest time?
    It's pretty telling that a gigantic portion of the playerbase doesn't want to do one of the most major parts of the game, no?

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    Because they don't actually want to raid/use skill/invest time?
    Maybe because in reality majority of players base dont appriciate banging the head up against the wall week after week for a few pixels ? Different people find diferent things enjoyable in wow and both sides should treat each other with respect thats all -_- Some people like it good for them some dont good for them too - u cant force someone into raiding hwos not interested and then expect of him to play on the lv of person who has been raiding for years, is using milion different macros, milion addons to maximize their performance - things which most of the casual playerbase has no idea of and still enjoys woiw greatly

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    It's pretty telling that a gigantic portion of the playerbase doesn't want to do one of the most major parts of the game, no?
    Just wait for T15. Normal mode raid participation is going to be much lower.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  19. #39
    People should want to raid with you. If you have to 'trick' them into it, their heart isn't in it and it will only produce disappointment. My advice would be to find a group of like-minded individuals if that's what you want out of this game. This may mean leaving your current guild if recruitment isn't possible. You simply have to weigh what's more important to you and your time - raiding with these people and being in the situation you're in, or finding a new group with the same interests and mindsets.

  20. #40
    The Lightbringer Grym's Avatar
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    "Tomorrow night we will do clearing farm bosses, progression the day after"

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