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  1. #21
    Its really not that bad. They just have to maintain Blood Shield correctly, and then they will take ZERO melee damage, at least in 10 man. Then the only thing you have to worry about is shadowy attacks and the adds damage.
    Last edited by Maelstrom51; 2013-01-29 at 04:22 AM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    Its really not that bad. They just have to maintain Blood Shield correctly, and then they will take ZERO melee damage, at least in 10 man. Then the only thing you have to worry about is shadowy attacks and the adds damage.
    you know how hard the boss hits right? maybe if your full HC geared, but now way with the gear we have, the tanks can take ZERO melee damage...

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-29 at 11:37 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiralphoenix View Post
    How does the blood shield do absolutely nothing to help them? The transferred damage to voodoo dolls is the same damage the DK takes after reductions/absorbs. They are slightly disadvantaged on the Shadowy attacks as blood shield doesn't help that and other tanks are capable of partially blocking it, but shadowy attacks isn't all the damage.

    The thing that disadvantages DK tanks is that part of their tanking mitigation is the death strike heal, which involves taking damage and healing it back up. That heal doesn't transfer to the voodoo dolls in the way that a block tank would just mitigate the damage to begin with, so the voodoo dolls don't take the high damage to begin with. A death knight takes and is designed to take that damage, and heal it back up (as well as shield to absorb future attacks), but that heal doesn't "transfer" to the voodoo dolls, effectively making DK tanks less desirable. The blood shield works fine for reducing voodoo doll damage. If it didn't, you probably couldn't use a DK tank at all for Gara'jal. Dolls would get annihilated plain and simple.

    From our own logs:

    [23:09:30.380] Gara'jal the Spiritbinder hits Webus 85951 (A: 58813)
    [23:09:31.081] Webus Voodoo Dolls Grouchó Absorb (85951)
    [23:09:31.081] Webus Voodoo Dolls Chendmar 85951
    [23:09:31.081] Webus Voodoo Dolls Avahnel 63062 (A: 22889)

    [23:09:45.809] Gara'jal the Spiritbinder hits Webus 51399 (A: 162083)
    [23:09:46.350] Webus Voodoo Dolls Grouchó 51399
    [23:09:46.350] Webus Voodoo Dolls Chendmar 51399
    [23:09:46.350] Webus Voodoo Dolls Avahnel 51399

    [23:11:29.800] Gara'jal the Spiritbinder hits Webus 51961 (A: 107470)
    [23:11:30.377] Webus Voodoo Dolls Osoholy 49203 (A: 2758)
    [23:11:30.377] Webus Voodoo Dolls Eisheth Absorb (51961)
    [23:11:30.377] Webus Voodoo Dolls Novax 51961

    [23:11:32.854] Gara'jal the Spiritbinder hits Webus 60589 (A: 137236)
    [23:11:33.584] Webus Voodoo Dolls Osoholy Absorb (60589)
    [23:11:33.584] Webus Voodoo Dolls Eisheth Absorb (60589)
    [23:11:33.614] Webus Voodoo Dolls Novax Absorb (60589)

    If it didn't work, the voodoo dolls would take the damage he took plus the absorb number.
    think he was referring to the shadow attacks, not really the melee damage!

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-29 at 11:45 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    Other big tank CDs aren't 2 minutes though, just sayin.
    Shield wall is 2 mins
    Argent Defender is 2 mins (2p)
    Barskin is 1 min
    dunno about monks...
    Last edited by nctank; 2013-01-29 at 11:38 AM.

  3. #23
    Mechagnome Kraeth's Avatar
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    Monks are the best tanks for Gara'jal actually. Between Stagger, Shuffle, Elusive Brew and all that they're really solid for fights like this.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Spiralphoenix View Post
    How does the blood shield do absolutely nothing to help them?
    Ah it appears I was horribly mistaken. Thanks for clearing that up. Seems you can't believe everything you hear. Original post edited to avoid confusion.
    Last edited by Fox Fang; 2013-01-29 at 04:28 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by nctank View Post
    you know how hard the boss hits right? maybe if your full HC geared, but now way with the gear we have, the tanks can take ZERO melee damage...
    I was progressing on this fight at 485 ilvl and taking no melee damage. How geared are you guys?

    Really what it comes down to is getting the most out of each Death Strike instead of spamming it.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    I was progressing on this fight at 485 ilvl and taking no melee damage. How geared are you guys?

    Really what it comes down to is getting the most out of each Death Strike instead of spamming it.
    NO WAY... No way you can manage this fight with taking no melee damage... Logs or it didn't happen...

    we all know how DS works,
    we all know you can significantly improve your mitigation by properly timing DS,
    we all know you max out Blood shield when offtanking

    but you just can't generate higher shields than the damage the boss does...

    ANW, If you could, dks would be totally OP on this fight...
    you would be able to keep bone shield up always up and you would significantly reduce all shadow strikes too...
    Last edited by nctank; 2013-01-29 at 07:59 PM.

  7. #27
    When tank switch happens, the 2nd dk should have a capped blood shield. 500k+ Use bone shield, you should have it up until blood shield breaks. Keep using death strikes, when your blood shield is sub 200k use vamp blood to restack it. I really hope you are using blood tap as a dk tank so you can get the extra death strikes... Unless you got terrible rng you shouldbe able to keep your blood shield up for 45 seconds+, if you got a good disc priest that can keep a bubble on your and actually uses and stacks a spirit shell on you, you can keep it up (GRANTED YOU DONT GET TERRIBLE RNG) the entire time you are tanking. Use Ice bound right before a shadowy attack when he's enraged so it overlaps and reduces damage from 2 of them. IBF runs out, use dancing rune weapon, and army right before a shadowy attack. Vamp blood, empowered rune weapon more death strikes for a bigger shield. and then another spirit shell. You can also send dks into the spirit realm using totems and have them vamp blood, death pact, tune tap right before it's their turn to tank and the 20% haste, mastery will keep their blood shield capped without needing any cooldowns, and 20% crit and damage with that vengeance really helps with enrage timer.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by nctank View Post
    NO WAY... No way you can manage this fight with taking no melee damage... Logs or it didn't happen...

    we all know how DS works,
    we all know you can significantly improve your mitigation by properly timing DS,
    we all know you max out Blood shield when offtanking

    but you just can't generate higher shields than the damage the boss does...

    ANW, If you could, dks would be totally OP on this fight...
    you would be able to keep bone shield up always up and you would significantly reduce all shadow strikes too...
    You can't do it all the fight but from my experience about 40-50 seconds (of the 60-70 you tank) are possible - the rest can be compensated with outside cds. We had paladins chaining their HoSac on me once the shield reached a critical point to cover the last 10-20 seconds.
    And while dks are not the best tanks on that fight my overall damage taken was generally on about the level of our monk tank with a significantly different damage distribution (I took high shadow damage, low melee damage - he took low shadow damage high melee damage) so I guess we're okay-ish at least on 10H.

    The main part is keeping up Bone Shield / Blood Shield combo.
    So this is generally what I do:
    Use IBF the moment I get aggro (this way it's up again at the end of my second tanking period)
    use DRW once IBF falls off (on the second tanking period also wait until you've taken at least 1 hit)
    use AMS (glyphed is a must) and Bone Shield after an aggro swap (this way both are up for the last few seconds again)
    shielding from other sources also helps if it manages to absorb the shadow bolts (disc priests and to a lesser extend paladins can help you there)
    something that may also help is grabbing some stacks in the shadow realm before a tank swap since they give an insane amount of haste/mastery (just make sure you get back to taunt the boss before the other tank gets teleported away)
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    I believe he means the extra HEALTH allows you to increase the size of your shield, given that Blood Shield caps at your max health.

    Also, Blood Shield DOES help with the physical damage taken for the dolls. If you absorb 20k damage, thats 20k less damage the dolls take from that hit.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-29 at 01:24 AM ----------



    A note on this- the only big TANK CD thats 2 min that other tanks have is Warriors with Shield Wall- its either 40% (Unlike our 50%, and stun immunity) for 12 seconds, 2 min CD, or 60% for 12 seconds, 4 min CD.

    Vampiric Blood is actually useful- Blood Shield healing is based of of DS healing. VB will increase DS healing. Thus, VB= bigger Blood Shields, unless that changed sometime since cata.

    Shadow Strike.. Hrmm... That DOES hurt us more then the other tanks. We only have 10% reduced damage taken baseline, unlike other tanks 15-25% reduced damage taken from spells. And, of course, our anti-magic CD thats meant to mitigate spell damage doesn't work on Shadow Strikes. Best thing is to just save a DS after each Shadow Strike, at least that way we "take" 30-50% less damage from it (From the resulting heal and absorb. Its good as long as you don't die)
    I'm not debating which cooldowns are better, not even trying to compare tanks outside of this fight... I couldn't care less what tanks ppl think are best overall... just saying that in this particular fight we are a bit badly equipped to deal with shadow strikes when compared with other tanks...

    on tank Cds
    Quote Originally Posted by nctank View Post
    Shield wall is 2 mins
    Argent Defender is 2 mins (2p)
    Barskin is 1 min
    dunno about monks...
    Bone shield is the only mitigation we have on shadow strikes...

    and again Blood shield does not get any benefit from VB besides the ones you get from HP increase... You don't really get bigger shields...

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by nctank View Post
    on tank Cds

    Shield wall is 2 mins
    Argent Defender is 2 mins (2p)
    Barskin is 1 min
    dunno about monks...
    Okay let's just go through them:
    Glyphed Shield wall: For the one starting to tank 2 min shield wall is indeed a small gain - for the one who is second in line it's pointless because you get two 3 min cds off anyway
    Ardent Defender: Significantly Weaker than Bone Shield and on a 3 min (not 2) cd - what's your point?
    Barkskin: Again weaker than Bone Shield and same cd

    Even in a worst case scenario Bone Shield will still last more than 10 sec - if you're lucky and/or have plenty of shields it can last 30-40 seconds making it a decent tank cd.
    Quote Originally Posted by nctank View Post
    Bone shield is the only mitigation we have on shadow strikes...

    and again Blood shield does not get any benefit from VB besides the ones you get from HP increase... You don't really get bigger shields...
    Unglyphed VB increases max hp => it increases the base healing of ds and since most DS will only do min heals it's pretty much a 15% increase in shields gained (with a decent uptime)


    DKs may not be the best tanks for that fight - especially on 25H, but on 10H DKs are definitely viable.
    Last edited by Nillo; 2013-01-30 at 07:02 PM.
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Okay let's just go through them:
    Glyphed Shield wall: For the one starting to tank 2 min shield wall is indeed a small gain - for the one who is second in line it's pointless because you get two 3 min cds off anyway
    Ardent Defender: Significantly Weaker than Bone Shield and on a 3 min (not 2) cd - what's your point?
    Barkskin: Again weaker than Bone Shield and same cd
    the advantage of 2 mins cd is that you can use them every time you are tanking...
    plus why would u glyph shield wall for this fight? seems a lot better without it... only reason i can see is if youre having issues surviving the frenzy
    Ardent Defender is 2 mins because of T14 2pieces bonus
    ANW i was comparing big CDs, so IBF...
    on druids i forgot Survival Instincts, which is a more fair comparison... unglyphed they are similar even if our glyph is way worse

    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Even in a worst case scenario Bone Shield will still last more than 10 sec - if you're lucky and/or have plenty of shields it can last 30-40 seconds making it a decent tank cd.
    bolts from the adds also remove charges from shield, making it way hard to last those 40 secs you mention
    In any case as I've stated its the best cd we have for that fight, just feels mostly the only 1...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Unglyphed VB increases max hp => it increases the base healing of ds and since most DS will only do min heals it's pretty much a 15% increase in shields gained (with a decent uptime)
    Yes its obvious and we've also said that a few times on the thread...
    Still it is pretty irrelevant also. When u're not tanking you already get shield to max without VB. When you're tanking you more than the 7% anw...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    DKs may not be the best tanks for that fight - especially on 25H, but on 10H DKs are definitely viable.
    on 25 man you can also have a better healer rotations...
    On a sidenote, as someone mentioned, even riggnaros benched his dk and went to get an alt for this fight...

    And as I was saying I'm not really whining on dks or such, just asking ppl for help/share experience since we kinda have 2 dks and we had no issues on any other fight untill now..

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 08:15 PM ----------

    And I'm not trying to be an ass/cheeky or something, i appreciate the time ppl are spending to reply to my post!

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by nctank View Post
    ANW i was comparing big CDs, so IBF...
    on druids i forgot Survival Instincts, which is a more fair comparison... unglyphed they are similar even if our glyph is way worse
    Then you were completely mixing up stuff because the only big cd you mentioned was shield wall which is the only one with a 2 min cd (all the others have 3 min) but only reduces damage by 40%
    Ardent defender is still only a 20% cd which is comparable to Bone Shield but on a much higher cd with lower duration => significantly less uptime

    Quote Originally Posted by nctank View Post
    bolts from the adds also remove charges from shield, making it way hard to last those 40 secs you mention
    In any case as I've stated its the best cd we have for that fight, just feels mostly the only 1...
    Yeah except that we also have IBF which can be used twice, DRW which is huge and also works against the shadow strikes. And even with a low uptime Bone Shield (say 15-20 sec) still has a higher uptime and overall damage reduction than the lesser cds of other tanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by nctank View Post
    Still it is pretty irrelevant also. When u're not tanking you already get shield to max without VB. When you're tanking you more than the 7% anw...
    On our latest kill all except for 3 of my DS were min heals and my Blood Shield uptime was about 55 seconds into each tank swap. And I didn't even bother to minimize my damage taken.
    My Bone Shield uptime was also 65% with it lasting about 30-35 seconds each time.
    Quote Originally Posted by nctank View Post
    on 25 man you can also have a better healer rotations...
    Healer rotations still don't make your Blood/Bone Shield reappear and judging by how much damage the vodoo dolls take once my defenses are broken I dare say you don't want to experience that in a 25H
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  13. #33
    This is easy mode for dk tanks. Really. At pull u have cd's so its fine. Dk 1 is tanking while dk 2 is building up a shield. I can get mine to around 700k ish. Then when dk 1 is banished dk 2 is taking no damage for like 15-20 seconds, then if you have a pally HOP the tank as threat is fixated. While dk2 is tanking dk 1 builds shield. Rinse and repeat. Save 1 hop for last phase deffo. But yeah with the shield u can rotate DRW and IBF pritty nice. Thats how i did it at lower ilevel. I didnt actully do with 2 dks but thats what i do and its fine for my raid. So i dont see why it cant work with 2 dk's. when i tank the raid takes less damage than when monk or pally is tanking.

  14. #34
    3 heal it.

    With all the toes/lfr gear people should have by now, you should be able to beat enrage with 3 heals. You can squeeze out more dps with a disc priest, but even if you don't have that you can have a resto druid spec hotw and dps at the start for a good 40seconds, and most of your healers should be dpsing at the start anyways since the damage is easily healed by a few hots and absorbs at the start.

  15. #35
    Nevermind, not even getting into it lol

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