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  1. #1
    Pit Lord velde046's Avatar
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    Equality <> justice/fairness

    Came across this picture on Facebook and really appreciated how it reflects the state of the game in WOW. I see a lot of people complaining that whenever buffs or nerfs arrive that it shouldn't be necessary and that everyone should learn to play because it is equal for other and that nerfs/buffs shouldn't be necessary.
    This pic in my opinion explains the best way why there is good reason for it, because equal doesn't mean fair....



    Just imagine, the crates being buffs/nerfs....
    In the first one it's equal for everybody but still player 2 can just see all the content, while player 3 still does not see everything. Player 1 doesn't even need it to see the game.

    In picture 2 it may not be equal, but it is fair... everybody gets to see the stuff.

    It also makes clear the point that is evident for a lot of people. If you pay to watch the game, you should be able to enjoy it...

    And to be honest I think I like fair/justice better than equal....
    In short not everybody is created equal.... there are different types/qualities of players that all should get a fair shot at seeing the content.
    Last edited by velde046; 2013-01-28 at 12:57 PM.

  2. #2
    I prefer providing for equal possibilities rather then providing for equal outcomes.

  3. #3
    well, that settles it. LFR = 2 crates, normal = 1 crate, heroic = no crate.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  4. #4
    The Lightbringer shise's Avatar
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    That picture is bad tho, because for that matter we could find other examples where "justice" would be unfair.

    One of those really nasty examples;

    There's people who run (sport) without legs, they use jointed legs to be able to run. Seems like those make justice as they allow the person to participate as anyone else despite their problem, yet it seems unfair as many people said that they actually take advantage :/ (I know, I already said it's a nasty example, but there are a lot even "better")




    My point is.. you can't consider justice in an individual way, because there are so many particular cases that you'd never be able to handle it. Actually, that's what they'd tell you if you'd study Justice or somethign related. Sad but true. I'd like it to be otherwise too tho.

  5. #5
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    In short not everybody is created equal.... there are different types/qualities of players that all should get a fair shot at seeing the content.
    Seeing the content != nerfing Heroic modes like they did in Cata. Heroic should stay heroic. Player 3 can try to do these 2 patches later.

    No, I'm not a HC raider. I raid normals and dabble a bit in HCs just to see how far we can go. I like it that way.

    My point is.. you can't consider justice in an individual way, because there are so many particular cases that you'd never be able to handle it. Actually, that's what they'd tell you if you'd study Justice or somethign related. Sad but true.
    This is correct.

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  6. #6
    Bloodsail Admiral rashen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by velde046 View Post
    I don't get this picture. It's calling people watching baseball without paying for it justice, standing outside the fence instead of buying a ticket
    And its certainly not equality considering those inside paid to see the game while they did not.
    Last edited by rashen; 2013-01-28 at 01:24 PM.

  7. #7
    The Lightbringer Simulacrum's Avatar
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    OP's picture reminds me of Harrison Bergeron.

  8. #8
    Pit Lord velde046's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evokanu View Post
    I don't get this picture. It's calling people watching baseball without paying for it justice, standing outside the fence instead of buying a ticket
    And its certainly not equality considering those inside paid to see the game while they did not.
    The fact that you assume is that they haven't paid and are watching it from outside the fence says more about you than anything else really :P

  9. #9
    Bloodsail Admiral rashen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by velde046 View Post
    The fact that you assume is that they haven't paid and are watching it from outside the fence says more about you than anything else really :P
    Why else would they be outside at the arena standing on boxes instead of actually having a seat inside if so?

  10. #10
    Epic! Valanna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    I prefer providing for equal possibilities rather then providing for equal outcomes.
    Very well put. I think that just about ends the discussion.
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  11. #11
    Oh hey, communist propaganda!

  12. #12
    Warchief Knight Gil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by velde046 View Post
    Came across this picture on Facebook and really appreciated how it reflects the state of the game in WOW. I see a lot of people complaining that whenever buffs or nerfs arrive that it shouldn't be necessary and that everyone should learn to play because it is equal for other and that nerfs/buffs shouldn't be necessary.
    This pic in my opinion explains the best way why there is good reason for it, because equal doesn't mean fair....



    Just imagine, the crates being buffs/nerfs....
    In the first one it's equal for everybody but still player 2 can just see all the content, while player 3 still does not see everything. Player 1 doesn't even need it to see the game.

    In picture 2 it may not be equal, but it is fair... everybody gets to see the stuff.

    It also makes clear the point that is evident for a lot of people. If you pay to watch the game, you should be able to enjoy it...

    And to be honest I think I like fair/justice better than equal....
    In short not everybody is created equal.... there are different types/qualities of players that all should get a fair shot at seeing the content.
    Second picture are still on equal grounds because all of them can watch the game

    Your point?

  13. #13
    Pit Lord velde046's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    OP's picture reminds me of Harrison Bergeron.
    Indeed it does... lol had not thought of that, but now it does

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 03:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight Gil View Post
    Second picture are still on equal grounds because all of them can watch the game

    Your point?
    Erm, they can ALL see the game now? Due to fair distribution of stuff instead of equal... nobody has to miss out on stuff....

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    OP's picture reminds me of Harrison Bergeron.
    Love it.

    If you are speaking about raids, doesn't the short person get to see raids via LFR? Height doesn't really cut it. Besides stacking crates, you have no real control over your height. As far as time/skill, that is a voluntary thing up to a point. If you don't want to devote as much time as anyone else, why would you deserve as much in return? Why, if you don't want to get better when you easily could, should you be rewarded as much?

    The irony of the picture, as someone else pointed out is how the three people are watching without having paid, while the others had to pay for a sometimes worse view of the "game."

    Again, height is a different story. But I feel like you should get out what you put into the game. Its rather ridiculous to expect the same rewards just for being alive. The reason they implemented LFR was so people could see the full content. I'm fine with that, but nerfing the normals and heroics is a bit "off" to me.

  15. #15
    If the guy on the left wants to hog a crate when he no longer needs it and denies the guy on the right a crate when he obviously needs it the most, it's the crate hogger's loss for no one's gain. I see no reason why the "heroic raider" on the left can't give the "lfr hero" on the right an extra box (heroic and normal content nerfs) AFTER the current tier is over. Especially since the heroic raider likely has an alt he wants to gear but good luck doing N T14 in a PUG when T15 is out if T14 is un nerfed...

    If he gives the guy on the right a box when it's relevant the guy on the right will never learn to grow (stop being bad, or just stop beingf lazy and pay attention) .The heroic raider probably cares more about the date and world order he got the kills in while the LFR hero just likes the loot and story without a large challenge and the normal raider is a mix of the two who wants an adequate but not overhwelming challenge and the other things the other two want (story/loot/competition, in a different order for everyone).

    Not only are some people in the real world a "waste of flesh" (sad but true, but because of the choices they make), some people are a "waste of pixels" in WoW (derps who get outhealed by a Disc priest not counting raw absorbs but still act arrogant or get annoyed when you call them on it, the DPS in your 5 man who whines about your DPS tanking when you're not dying). In both cases, by being a "waste of flesh" or "waste of pixels" it's their own time and enjoyment they are wasting, and they can and sometimes do waste other people's time and enjoyment.
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  16. #16
    Pit Lord velde046's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    Love it.

    If you are speaking about raids, doesn't the short person get to see raids via LFR?
    Yes it does. Cause technically that a buff, basically from left to right it's heroic, normal and LFR as far as raiding goes. But what we see in the game is that the taller players tell the shortest one to get lost because he has the same amount of crates, even though the tallest guy doesn't even need it.... He's losing nothing by giving the crate to the short guy.... Still in the game and on these forums you see a lot of people that feel that the first picture is fair/justice...

    Height doesn't really cut it. Besides stacking crates, you have no real control over your height. As far as time/skill, that is a voluntary thing up to a point. If you don't want to devote as much time as anyone else, why would you deserve as much in return? Why, if you don't want to get better when you easily could, should you be rewarded as much?
    Well that question is just as valid in reverse.... shouldn't you be rewarded as much? I do not believe it is necessary to get EVERYTHING at the same level, but a system where it is more leveled isn't bad.... The tall guy is losing nothing really, while the other's get a better view with some help. Is that a bad thing?
    If you do think so, do you also believe that:
    - Handicapped should not have special parking spots or toilets?
    - Children with reading or learning disablities should get some extra help?

    I know there's a difference between real life and WOW, but this even makes me wonder more why one would find it fun to deny someone stuff, if it can be given to them without harming yourself even...

    Besides, I think seeing the content is not the reward, what you get out of it (the experience, gear, fun), is the reward...
    Last edited by velde046; 2013-01-28 at 02:35 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by evokanu View Post
    Why else would they be outside at the arena standing on boxes instead of actually having a seat inside if so?
    I don't know, but if they're looking over those stadium walls, the tall guy must be about as tall as Sha of Anger... So best not to argue with them.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    If the guy on the left wants to hog a crate when he no longer needs it and denies the guy on the right a crate when he obviously needs it the most, it's the crate hogger's loss for no one's gain. I see no reason why the "heroic raider" on the left can't give the "lfr hero" on the right an extra box (heroic and normal content nerfs) AFTER the current tier is over. Especially since the heroic raider likely has an alt he wants to gear but good luck doing N T14 in a PUG when T15 is out if T14 is un nerfed...

    If he gives the guy on the right a box when it's relevant the guy on the right will never learn to grow (stop being bad, or just stop beingf lazy and pay attention) .The heroic raider probably cares more about the date and world order he got the kills in while the LFR hero just likes the loot and story without a large challenge and the normal raider is a mix of the two who wants an adequate but not overhwelming challenge and the other things the other two want (story/loot/competition, in a different order for everyone).

    Not only are some people in the real world a "waste of flesh" (sad but true, but because of the choices they make), some people are a "waste of pixels" in WoW (derps who get outhealed by a Disc priest not counting raw absorbs but still act arrogant or get annoyed when you call them on it, the DPS in your 5 man who whines about your DPS tanking when you're not dying). In both cases, by being a "waste of flesh" or "waste of pixels" it's their own time and enjoyment they are wasting, and they can and sometimes do waste other people's time and enjoyment.
    They already see the story in LFR right? So its really just about wanting the loot with no challenge.

    You also seem to miss the point of the first picture. They give a box or "opportunity" to every person that plays WoW. So why should they deserve more boxes? They don't need it when it comes to WoW, they get an easy time/story/gear in WoW. As you said, people should stop being bad and lazy. If the "lfr hero" wants normal mode gear, whats wrong with expecting them to earn it?

  19. #19
    Over 9000! Hyve's Avatar
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    Equality & Justice can co-exist ...

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by velde046 View Post
    Yes it does. Cause technically that a buff, basically from left to right it's heroic, normal and LFR as far as raiding goes. But what we see in the game is that the taller players tell the shortest one to get lost because he has the same amount of crates, even though the tallest guy doesn't even need it.... He's losing nothing by giving the crate to the short guy.... Still in the game and on these forums you see a lot of people that feel that the first picture is fair/justice...



    Well that question is just as valid in reverse.... shouldn't you be rewarded as much? I do not believe it is necessary to get EVERYTHING at the same level, but a system where it is more leveled isn't bad.... The tall guy is losing nothing really, while the other's get a better view with some help. Is that a bad thing?
    If you do think so, do you also believe that:
    - Handicapped should not have special parking spots or toilets?
    - Children with reading or learning disablities should get some extra help?

    I know there's a difference between real life and WOW, but this even makes me wonder more why one would find it fun to deny someone stuff, if it can be given to them without harming yourself even...

    Besides, I think seeing the content is not the reward, what you get out of it, is the reward...
    COmparing LFR raiders to the handicapped is rather despicable. And I know, its all about gear gear gear. How isn't the first picture fair? They are treating everyone the same. The reason height isn't relevant is simple: Anyone in WoW has the same choice and opportunity. The only real difference between players is how much they choose to commit and work to get rewards. Thats it.

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