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  1. #41
    As I speculated in another thread, most rets are just bad.

    The good ones can blow people to pieces. Then they cry Blizz for nerfs...

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Gahmuret View Post
    As I speculated in another thread, most rets are just bad.

    The good ones can blow people to pieces. Then they cry Blizz for nerfs...
    That might be true to some degree. However, there are serious core problems with Ret that need to be adressed. There is a reason why you never see a team with a Ret paladin in major arena tournaments.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Gahmuret View Post
    As I speculated in another thread, most rets are just bad.

    The good ones can blow people to pieces. Then they cry Blizz for nerfs...
    1) Why would people who play a specific spec just randomly be bad?
    2) Ret is so simple and straight forward that you can't play it badly even if you tried.
    3) No top teams have a Ret.
    4) Using Guardian, Avenger, and Wings is how you blow people up, that is done with one simple macro, so there no real way for a good Ret to really do that much more damage than a bad one.

    In fact, thank you for pointing out the exact major problem with Ret, which is the opposite of what you are arguing. That would be that there is barely any difference between a good Ret and a bad one because the spec is painfully underdeveloped and barely has any tactical worth.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Gahmuret View Post
    As I speculated in another thread, most rets are just bad.

    The good ones can blow people to pieces. Then they cry Blizz for nerfs...
    Good Ret Macro = AW + GoAK + trinket ( hell yeaaaaa blowed him away )
    Bad Ret Macro = AW + GoAK + trinket ( Wtf !!! )

    i mean WTF ?!?!?!?!?!?

  5. #45
    I think people fail to understand that there is a science behind every class. Sure, ret is straight forward, but there ARE ways to min max, and there ARE a lot of bad rets. That being said, PvP is about control and communication, not just using all your CDs at once and hoping you land a kill.

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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    I think people fail to understand that there is a science behind every class. Sure, ret is straight forward, but there ARE ways to min max, and there ARE a lot of bad rets. That being said, PvP is about control and communication, not just using all your CDs at once and hoping you land a kill.
    There are a lot of bad players, period. Every class and spec have a lot of bad players. Gahmuret was trying to say this is a "ret only" phenomenon - and I lol'd really hard.

  7. #47
    Yeah, it being "ret only" is a long stretch. Granted, there are statistically more bad paladins, just because there are more paladins than pretty much any other class. Another thing to keep in mind, is that paladins are considered a "beginner" class, thus a lot of new players tend to play them. It just results in a lot of people with a lack of knowledge/experience.

    Sha of Fear Melee hit You 372908 Physical. (766625 Overkill) (Critical)
    Begging us to buff is sometimes easier than trying to beat the boss.(Source)

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    There are a lot of bad players, period. Every class and spec have a lot of bad players. Gahmuret was trying to say this is a "ret only" phenomenon - and I lol'd really hard.
    Animosity toward Ret and the Ret community, is a very good indicator of being awfully ignorant of how PvP works. Anyone who is even remotely knowledgeable and skilled at PvP knows that the spec has virtually always been mediocre at best, and that only a few excellent players with great teammates can take it particularly far... and even then not to tournaments on a regular basis.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 10:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    Animosity toward Ret and the Ret community, is a very good indicator of being awfully ignorant of how PvP works. Anyone who is even remotely knowledgeable and skilled at PvP knows that the spec has virtually always been mediocre at best, and that only a few excellent players with great teammates can take it particularly far... and even then not to tournaments on a regular basis.
    Yeah it's so ironic however that rather than being a "beginner" spec, Ret is a spec that has to be played by a PvP expert to be even remotely competitive. I also think the whole "beginner" spec idea was just some nonsense that Kalgan (Chilton) made up in some forum post during Burning Crusade as an excuse for the pathetic state of PvP balance at the time. During his other excuseathons I'm fairly sure he has also called Ret a leveling spec not meant for endgame content... and has also expressed his constant paranoid delusions regarding how Ret is constantly one tiny little buff away from completely dominating PvP.

    Anyway, as these examples illustrate, the problem with Ret has always been philosophy, or lack there of, they have no solid clue of what the spec is supposed to be for. Sometimes it's burst, sometimes it's mobility, sometimes it's supposedly high support (currently we seem to be meant to be one of the best off-healers)... when in reality we just end up with some half-finished product with no fine-tuning or tactical depth.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 10:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Matrlx View Post
    Good Ret Macro = AW + GoAK + trinket ( hell yeaaaaa blowed him away )
    Bad Ret Macro = AW + GoAK + trinket ( Wtf !!! )

    i mean WTF ?!?!?!?!?!?
    Yeah, that about covers it. The only difference between a good ret and a bad one is knowing when to hit that button, and even then you need great teammates with real offensive utility to actually make a well-geared and well-played target vulnerable enough to be burst down like that. But, of course, you can also just not bring the Ret at all since there are classes with both strong offensive utility and similar burst.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 10:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    Yeah, it being "ret only" is a long stretch. Granted, there are statistically more bad paladins, just because there are more paladins than pretty much any other class. Another thing to keep in mind, is that paladins are considered a "beginner" class, thus a lot of new players tend to play them. It just results in a lot of people with a lack of knowledge/experience.
    The only reason I could imagine for it being a ret phenomenon is because the spec is so shallow that it's very difficult to learn anything. When playing at a low, medium, or good skill level all feel roughly the same, the player gets no feedback on how to improve, this leading to no growth in skill. The spec boils down to deciding whether to use 3 hp to heal or dps, and occasionally you have to decide if some 2+ min defensive cooldown should be used. On my monk I have to constantly think about what ability to use next... on my Ret it's "*derp*... do I HoJ now or later... *derp*" Blinding light on the other hand is so worthless for a melee that it's basically just some desperate defensive tool... using such a short-range cc in a serious CC chain is very difficult.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 10:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    Yeah, it being "ret only" is a long stretch. Granted, there are statistically more bad paladins, just because there are more paladins than pretty much any other class. Another thing to keep in mind, is that paladins are considered a "beginner" class, thus a lot of new players tend to play them. It just results in a lot of people with a lack of knowledge/experience.
    The only reason I could imagine for it being a ret phenomenon is because the spec is so shallow that it's very difficult to learn anything. When playing at a low, medium, or good skill level all feel roughly the same, the player gets no feedback on how to improve, thus leading to no growth in skill. The spec boils down to deciding whether to use 3 hp to heal or dps, and occasionally you have to decide if some 2+ min defensive cooldown should be used. On my monk I have to constantly think about what ability to use next... on my Ret it's "*derp*... do I HoJ now or later... *derp*" Blinding light on the other hand is so worthless for a melee that it's basically just some desperate defensive tool... using such a short-range cc in a serious CC chain is very difficult.
    Last edited by Tangra; 2013-01-30 at 10:03 PM.

  9. #49
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    We agree that Retribution does not offer enough benefits to an Arena or Battleground team beyond just taking a Holy paladin. We are going to try a change where Hand of Sacrifice also dispels all harmful magic effects on the target for Ret only.

    Recent blue post... oooooh. I like it, but it makes Clemency even more necessary. What do you guys think?

    Also: To all the people saying "Ret is fine," told you so.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    We agree that Retribution does not offer enough benefits to an Arena or Battleground team beyond just taking a Holy paladin. We are going to try a change where Hand of Sacrifice also dispels all harmful magic effects on the target for Ret only.

    Recent blue post... oooooh. I like it, but it makes Clemency even more necessary. What do you guys think?

    Also: To all the people saying "Ret is fine," told you so.
    Finally. It's a step in the right direction that they openly acknowledge it, at least - but I don't think that one change is going to be enough, and it does kind-of skew too much in favor of Clemency. Needs more work but it's good that they're trying.

  11. #51
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    For clarification:
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
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    - We agree that Retribution does not offer enough benefits to an Arena or Battleground team beyond just taking a Holy paladin. We are going to try a change where Hand of Sacrifice also dispels all harmful magic effects on the target for Ret only.

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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    Our burst is great in pvp. The problem is we can be cc'd for 90% of the duration which makes it pointless. And since our sustained damage is horrible we end up doing nothing for 3mins. Ontop of that our heals have been nerfed into the ground making it so we can't do any real sustained damage or healing between burst cd's.

    Our Defense is very weak compared to other melee. We have bubble for 8 seconds and it can be broken by two of the most common classes in rated pvp. Which is why everyone trains the Ret paladin every game.

    In Pve we are doing a little bit better, but again, Why take a Ret Paladin when you can take a Warrior or Dk which both do good burst damage but have much better sustained and over all dps?

    The sad truth is that Ret is in a bad spot over all right now and Blizzard doesn't seem to care at all.

    Really really well summed up, covers how i personally feel about the situation with rets. People keep repeating how Rets have it so awesome, with all the burst we have. Which is fine and dandy in a perfect scenario where the other players LET you hit them, but if you are CCed/ can't get into range/ receive tons of damage during that period its generally wasted. This isn't at all the same for other classes. I've played enough DK/Warrior this season, and while both have their own set of problems, the sustained damage is the key point that ret really doesn't have going for it, especially when you're fighting Warriors that seemly chew through you all the time, while you hit them like a wet sock without cds.

    PvE fairs a bit better, i raid 10 man so i have no clue about 25 man, generally in the top 3 but i'd wager rets fair better in 10 than 25, simply because there are a handful of classes that even the best rets will struggle to compete with. Really some of the CD damage should be worked into sustained. Utility wise any Prot paladin or holy paladin can bring that to a raid, its not unique to ret. So you know` can't really use that as a 'good' reason to bring them. I guess if your raid has neither, then Rets make a fine choice but again that can be said about a fair few classes when it comes to 10 man raiding.

    Rets certainly do well PvE. Forums generally aren't the best source of advice for how well a certain spec is doing in PvP. I have no doubt that a few will excel still but personally i had to stop PvPing on my Ret paladin, and go Holy instead.
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  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    For clarification:
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Paladin
    - We agree that Retribution does not offer enough benefits to an Arena or Battleground team beyond just taking a Holy paladin. We are going to try a change where Hand of Sacrifice also dispels all harmful magic effects on the target for Ret only.
    Great, more reasons to train the Ret pally. Don't get me wrong, this is a serious buff, but letting us dispel others only makes it more tempting to attack us, which is one of the main problems with Ret to begin with. At least on the bright side we could use Hand of Sacrifice to remove CC from a partner so that we can get some assistance from them. Overall, it's a nice change, but also a bit awkward and goofy. It also makes Clemency even more mandatory, which is very bad design, just like the Flash of Light buff makes Selfless healer mandatory.

    What I would really like to see is a glyph that makes Divine Storm cause something similar to mass dispel to any targets within 20 yards or so. Ghostcrawler already expressed their regret that one of the coolest animations for Ret is barely used at all, so it makes sense to me.
    Last edited by Tangra; 2013-01-31 at 01:38 AM.

  14. #54
    Stood in the Fire Neldarie's Avatar
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    I think adding some kind of beneficial intervene to ret arsenal would be great. The only melee who doesn't have real gap closer (outside of maybe monks? they confuse me still ). So say 1minute cooldown Intervene to friendly target granting her/him and yourself 5% dmg bonus for 10seconds. I don't really think sac dispell will affect much other than vs lock-priest comps.
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  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Neldarie View Post
    I think adding some kind of beneficial intervene to ret arsenal would be great. The only melee who doesn't have real gap closer (outside of maybe monks? they confuse me still ). So say 1minute cooldown Intervene to friendly target granting her/him and yourself 5% dmg bonus for 10seconds. I don't really think sac dispell will affect much other than vs lock-priest comps.
    It would break quite a lot of CC.

  16. #56
    From a rogue's standpoint, I always get so happy when I meet a ret in arena. They go down so easy. You have amazing burst, unless I stun or dismantle you, or use cloak of shadow, or evasion.
    “The north still reeks of undeath. Our homelands lay in ruin. Pandaria oozes our hatred and doubt. What hope is there for this world when the Burning Legion again lands upon our shores?” - Eric Thibeau

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Komati View Post
    From a rogue's standpoint, I always get so happy when I meet a ret in arena. They go down so easy. You have amazing burst, unless I stun or dismantle you, or use cloak of shadow, or evasion.
    Yeah, lol. We're amazing unless our opponents .. you know... play their toons with even minimal competence. At least now we can get a partner out of cc so that they can save our squishy but.

  18. #58
    I am Murloc! Alenarien's Avatar
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    Because Ret paladins simply aren't good right now. Every skill is bound to a CC, all burst is bound to long CCs, self-heals are pathetic, no decent/proper gap-closer for expansion after expansion, anything Ret can do others do better, relatively boring/unengaging/unchanged compared to other classes, out-performed in DPS by all other plate wearers, and so on and so forth.

    What's worst about it all? Ghostcrawler has said quite clearly that Ret paladins are, "Pretty much exactly where we want them to be right now", so I wouldn't expect anything major to change. It's the 'Titanic' of WoW, and i've abandoned ship; as have most of the most notable Ret Paladin PvP players out there.
    Last edited by Alenarien; 2013-01-31 at 02:11 AM.
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  19. #59
    Stood in the Fire Neldarie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    It would break quite a lot of CC.
    True but 1) You would be trading buffed Hand of Purity for double sac (its 2min cooldown so nothing very major if just x1) and 2) its usually the healer who dispells CC.

    Tbh from watching plenty of Vanguards and other high rated ret streams it always daunted on me that gap closer was the biggest issue of ret pvp in general.

    And with that long cooldown "intervene" ya could use it for both offensive and defensive purposes thus adding more to the mix of complexity.
    Last edited by Neldarie; 2013-01-31 at 02:16 AM.
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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Neldarie View Post
    True but 1) You would be trading buffed Hand of Purity for double sac (its 2min cooldown so nothing very major if just x1) and 2) its usually the healer who dispells CC.

    Tbh from watching plenty of Vanguards and other high rated ret streams it always daunted to me that gap closer was the biggest issue of ret pvp in general.
    Well hopefully it makes people less likely to focus us since we can break our healer out of long CC chains... but yeah, like I originally said, it's a pretty goofy change... not bad though. I like it a lot for 3s and 5s... for 2s (because we still can't kill shit) and RBGs it's underwhelming.

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