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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanadam View Post
    Please dont turn this into a QQ or GC flame war thread, our spec isnt great but it isnt as bad as some people make it out to be

    hi guys,
    As well all know Retribution is far from fully broken and while its not the best spec out there, it has its strengths. Ive played paladin since 3.3 (when i started) which to some will still put me as a baby but what can you do.

    I dont fully understand why Retribution is under represented as much as it is. Given the absolutely rediculous 250k+ Burst Dps in PvE and the epic assist and decent peel available in PvP it baffles me why there are no "popular" Retri Paladins. Looking at the rosters of many top end raiding guilds or the line ups of high end arena 3vs3/5vs5 teams or RBG teams, very few if any seem to use Rets.

    Its not that hard to see on youtube either, most classes and specs have an assortment of "high-profile" players with endorsements from gaming accessory companies such as razer, etc. Paladins have Hobbs and Athene but neither play ret, until 5.0.1 Vanguardz was a highly rated ret in arena (running Vanguard Cleave; ret, frost, resto) in Cataclysm but it seems recently he has taken to Restoration shaman.

    While im not too fussed about the quarrels and opinions of these players its slightly frustrating theres no "advanced" tactics or high rating tricks or tips to come by where a classes like warriors, warlocks and mages have a ridiculous amount of these videos available. Being quite serious about my own capabilities as ret i feel like i am severely limited into placing my skill level in a category where i can understand what im doing wrong and why... because there are no videos about it.

    From a PvE standpoint, Rets bring a support package which is unrivaled (hands/off heals/SS/LH/DA/easy off tanking ability via simple RF on/off)

    From a PvP standpoint, impossible to snare, many ranged based abilities, can heal themselves and others for stupid amounts when done properly, incredible support for casters or melee given the flexibility of the spells available all with the stupidly outrageous and relyable burst, great against priest/dk/warlock pets locking down their damage or CC using turn evil (no other class can do this as good as ret).

    what am i missing? i dont understand this negetive outlook on retribution as a spec.

    This leaves me with a couple of feelings
    1. Try to create some sort of retribtuion paladin WoW coverage channel on youtube (though its probably been done to death unsuccessfully) to rectify this problem which will be doomed to fail without support from like minded people
    2. Keep Searching as i may have simply missed the information im looking for
    3. roll holy (JK)

    Any thoughts?

    Vanadam
    it's simple. other melee do everything we can, better.

    burst? warrior/feral.

    sustained? see above, and ww/rogue in 5.2.

  2. #62
    Double edged sword is the best way to describe the accessibility/straightforwardness of a ret.

    It's a fairly intuitive spec that you can learn well (not saying faceroll). However at some level it just caps out and you just can't do somethings that other specs/classes can. E.g. a good mage, for EXAMPLE, has the toolkit to solo 1v2 situations with smart kiting and cc etc.

    A good Ret has some capability, ofc, but far far less so. Your blinding light and 6 second stun only goes so far (lets be realistic about repentence here). Ret's point where it can 1v2 relies MOSTLY (not totally) on gear, but even a Dreadful geared mage can control both opponents for a significant period.

  3. #63
    Warchief Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    Our burst is great in pvp. The problem is we can be cc'd for 90% of the duration which makes it pointless. And since our sustained damage is horrible we end up doing nothing for 3mins. Ontop of that our heals have been nerfed into the ground making it so we can't do any real sustained damage or healing between burst cd's.

    Our Defense is very weak compared to other melee. We have bubble for 8 seconds and it can be broken by two of the most common classes in rated pvp. Which is why everyone trains the Ret paladin every game.

    In Pve we are doing a little bit better, but again, Why take a Ret Paladin when you can take a Warrior or Dk which both do good burst damage but have much better sustained and over all dps?

    The sad truth is that Ret is in a bad spot over all right now and Blizzard doesn't seem to care at all.
    Indeed I agree and the sad part is that Frost dk frost strike hits way way harder than our finisher templar verdict and they can do it way faster than us.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matrlx View Post
    Good Ret Macro = AW + GoAK + trinket ( hell yeaaaaa blowed him away )
    Bad Ret Macro = AW + GoAK + trinket ( Wtf !!! )

    i mean WTF ?!?!?!?!?!?
    I dont like stacking too many cooldowns to blow someone up, is not interesting and skillful.
    Activating GoAK+Wings+Holy Avenger+on use trinket, is predictable (and easy counterable).

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Icecold3000 View Post
    I dont like stacking too many cooldowns to blow someone up, is not interesting and skillful.
    Activating GoAK+Wings+Holy Avenger+on use trinket, is predictable (and easy counterable).
    Yeah 2+ minute cooldowns are dinosaurs at this point... pretty much every serious dps spec in PvP can burst on a 1 min cd or less.

  6. #66
    High Overlord Andron's Avatar
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    They should just give Clemency to Ret only, baseline, and put a new talent in its place. The whole tier (read: whole tree) is everything else but spectacular, mostly former Ret talents, but one can't expect that to change until at least the next expansion.

    However ... The changes to PvP Ret Blizz announced they planned are quite underwhelming. But they admitted a problem at least, so time to Twitter my ass off.

  7. #67
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andron View Post
    They should just give Clemency to Ret only, baseline, and put a new talent in its place. The whole tier (read: whole tree) is everything else but spectacular, mostly former Ret talents, but one can't expect that to change until at least the next expansion.

    However ... The changes to PvP Ret Blizz announced they planned are quite underwhelming. But they admitted a problem at least, so time to Twitter my ass off.
    Clemency baseline for Ret won't help anything though, that's still not unique Ret utility. Best bet is to keep tweeting and forum posting.

  8. #68
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runewrath View Post
    Anaxie! Tell me it's not true that Requital is going WW for 5.2.
    He already is WW

  9. #69
    Herald of the Titans naturetauren's Avatar
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    I am not taking this game seriously anymore but there is one thing that pisses me off:

    The paladin is forced to selfbuff himself every 30 seconds to do viable damage. Most boring crap ive ever seen. Feral druids got it too. Who come up with this idea? Why is it there? To be "fun"? To "make the spec unique"?

    Atleast 5.2 is fixing the heal problems. And the selfheal on selfless healer will buff survival a bit with the wonderfull hot effect.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by naturetauren View Post
    I am not taking this game seriously anymore but there is one thing that pisses me off:

    The paladin is forced to selfbuff himself every 30 seconds to do viable damage. Most boring crap ive ever seen. Feral druids got it too. Who come up with this idea? Why is it there? To be "fun"? To "make the spec unique"?

    Atleast 5.2 is fixing the heal problems. And the selfheal on selfless healer will buff survival a bit with the wonderfull hot effect.
    Inquisition really does destroy Ret PvP...having to give up a finisher every 30 sec completely ruins our already mediocre pressure. Not to mention that when you're low and have to heal and Inquisition falls off you barely ever get any crit heals and so there basically no way to make a comeback.

  11. #71
    Brewmaster insmek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    Why take a Ret Paladin when you can take a Warrior or Dk which both do good burst damage but have much better sustained and over all dps?
    You know it's a pretty open-and-shut topic when the second reply hits the nail on the head so beautifully. At the end of the day, Retribution is a melee DPS spec and right now you put your team in a better position by taking any melee DPS in lieu of a Ret Paladin.
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  12. #72
    I'm going to compare Ret to Spriest because I think their toolkit is much better than ours.

    They can spam heals if they want and have multiple types of heals like ProM, Renew, and Flash Heal. Ret gets Flash Heal that uses 1/3 of our mana pool. Priest's flash heal is about 1/16 of their mana pool. This means they can burst heal for a bit if necessary, where ret is limited to 2 or 3 at a time.

    Spriest get Mass Dispel which is just so so strong. Not only can they cleanse CCs, but offensively dispel.

    Now Ret has strong burst right now in pvp, but outside of the burst, we don't hit very hard and are very susceptible to burst. This is why they are underrepresented. Blizz is always very careful not to make Ret too strong, and that's fine. But ever since bubble can be dispelled (often preemptively) we don't have the tools necessary to compete against mages, feral druids, and destro locks.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Varabently View Post
    I'm going to compare Ret to Spriest because I think their toolkit is much better than ours.

    They can spam heals if they want and have multiple types of heals like ProM, Renew, and Flash Heal. Ret gets Flash Heal that uses 1/3 of our mana pool. Priest's flash heal is about 1/16 of their mana pool. This means they can burst heal for a bit if necessary, where ret is limited to 2 or 3 at a time.

    Spriest get Mass Dispel which is just so so strong. Not only can they cleanse CCs, but offensively dispel.

    Now Ret has strong burst right now in pvp, but outside of the burst, we don't hit very hard and are very susceptible to burst. This is why they are underrepresented. Blizz is always very careful not to make Ret too strong, and that's fine. But ever since bubble can be dispelled (often preemptively) we don't have the tools necessary to compete against mages, feral druids, and destro locks.
    They constantly err or the side of caution when when designing Ret, their philosophy on the spec is just nonsensical; I don't get what they see in the spec that makes them feel that it's always doing relatively well, until it hits rock bottom. It's like they believe the myth of the extreme utility of Paladins that most scrubs do as well; when in reality Paladin utility has been pretty average since pretty much tBC.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    They constantly err or the side of caution when when designing Ret, their philosophy on the spec is just nonsensical; I don't get what they see in the spec that makes them feel that it's always doing relatively well, until it hits rock bottom. It's like they believe the myth of the extreme utility of Paladins that most scrubs do as well; when in reality Paladin utility has been pretty average since pretty much tBC.
    I kind of agree. While a lot of the spells are old-fashioned and iconic of WoW paladins, I think a few of them are just extreme and their powerfulness makes them too easy to balance. For instance, BoP. Because making someone immune to physical for 8 seconds is REALLY strong, they had to give it a counter...
    That counter being dispell, which 5 classes can do: not so rare. Thus, the spell becomes semi-useless, at least for Ret. As a Hpal, it buys you 3-4 seconds to heal your teammate up unless they are Johnny-on-the-spot with that dispell. But Ret can't really do that. It also leads to the spell having a decently long cooldown. Abilities like Ironbark and Pain Supression are much easier to balance because they aren't full-stop of damage.

    I think the overhaul with Holy Power in Cata was the perfect chance to make Ret a unique dps class, at least in ability to be flexible. Things like making HoJ take Holy Power but have a cooldown like 20 seconds, WoG heal for more than it does currently, be able to use Holy Power to cleanse perhaps, etc. I understand doing any utility would then hit our damage hard, but That's how rogues, ferals, spriests, and DK's work. Chains, psychic horror, maim, kidney shot, etc all take Resources but can be much more readily available than our CC. Hell, if most of the CC's in the game worked like that, had disadvantages to using them, this game would be a lot less of a CC fest. I know for sure nobody enjoys being stuck in CC chains for 14 seconds+. Hell, when I'm on my pally as Holy currently I really don't even have fun performing the chain. It just feels stupid. Hey sorry man, but you don't get to play for 20 seconds just because I caught you with no trinket and no DR's!

    But, the CC system overhaul is for another topic, sorry. Just feel like Ret would be much easier to keep balanced if our mechanics worked differently, and the Holy Power system was the perfect chance. Not too late though.
    Last edited by Valedus; 2013-02-03 at 09:27 PM.

  15. #75
    I am Murloc! Alenarien's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    you talked about nerfing ret burst and buffing sustained dmg/mechanics. What happended to that idea?
    We don't think the reaction from Ret players would be good overall. Would have to weigh that cost.
    On whatever planet Ghostcrawler is on, Ret Paladins do indeed like having low sustained DPS. Interesting revelations, non?

    At this rate things are comparable to an army having a chef as its commander.
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    Wanting stricter immigration policies is predicated upon highly racist views, undoubtedly.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    I kind of agree. While a lot of the spells are old-fashioned and iconic of WoW paladins, I think a few of them are just extreme and their powerfulness makes them too easy to balance. For instance, BoP. Because making someone immune to physical for 8 seconds is REALLY strong, they had to give it a counter...
    That counter being dispell, which 5 classes can do: not so rare. Thus, the spell becomes semi-useless, at least for Ret. As a Hpal, it buys you 3-4 seconds to heal your teammate up unless they are Johnny-on-the-spot with that dispell. But Ret can't really do that. It also leads to the spell having a decently long cooldown. Abilities like Ironbark and Pain Supression are much easier to balance because they aren't full-stop of damage.

    I think the overhaul with Holy Power in Cata was the perfect chance to make Ret a unique dps class, at least in ability to be flexible. Things like making HoJ take Holy Power but have a cooldown like 20 seconds, WoG heal for more than it does currently, be able to use Holy Power to cleanse perhaps, etc. I understand doing any utility would then hit our damage hard, but That's how rogues, ferals, spriests, and DK's work. Chains, psychic horror, maim, kidney shot, etc all take Resources but can be much more readily available than our CC. Hell, if most of the CC's in the game worked like that, had disadvantages to using them, this game would be a lot less of a CC fest. I know for sure nobody enjoys being stuck in CC chains for 14 seconds+. Hell, when I'm on my pally as Holy currently I really don't even have fun performing the chain. It just feels stupid. Hey sorry man, but you don't get to play for 20 seconds just because I caught you with no trinket and no DR's!

    But, the CC system overhaul is for another topic, sorry. Just feel like Ret would be much easier to keep balanced if our mechanics worked differently, and the Holy Power system was the perfect chance. Not too late though.
    That is pretty true... all of our "amazing" cooldown are really only particularly good for Holy. Hand of Protection, Hand of Sacrifice, Divine Shield... they all rely on being able to heal your team up after being used. When a Ret bubbles he can't heal himself up; when he Sacs damage is just transferred, so once again healing is needed; HoP is the same way, it just stops damage so that heals can catch up. It's all just emergency catch up tools on long cooldowns, so just something to make your healer's life a little easier, but nothing that allows you to put out serious pressure on a regular basis.

    Having a Ret on your team is almost like playing double healer/1 dps, except that bringing a real healer brings much better survivability and often much better utility. Virtually any healer can effectively dps through dispels (friendly and offensive), cc, things like denounce...taking a ret into serious PvP is basically asking for matches that you will slowly (not even that slowly) lose... they just need to stop underestimating the defensive potency of a good offense.

    Who needs a stop to physical damage on a 5 min cooldown, when an AoE fear can disable multiple players of any spec for 8 sec, often makes them run into very unfavorable positioning, and is on a cool down of less than a minute. How dense do you have to be to not realize that CCing someone for 8 seconds basically makes you "immune" to their damage... yet literal immunities have to be on ridiculous cool downs, while CC that completely stop incoming damage, healing, cc, and EVERYTHING else, are often on cool downs of only a few seconds.
    Last edited by Tangra; 2013-02-03 at 10:37 PM.

  17. #77
    ret honestly needs a killing machine-esque mechanic to help its sustained damage woes.

    and no, divine purpose is not the same thing.

    having to rely on old tier bonus gimmicks (goak duration, AW bonus) to do even less damage than a similarly geared warrior in t15, is just sad.
    Last edited by Moradim; 2013-02-04 at 02:27 AM.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moradim View Post
    ret honestly needs a killing machine-esque mechanic to help its sustained damage woes.

    and no, divine purpose is not the same thing.

    having to rely on old tier bonus gimmicks (goak duration, AW bonus) to do even less damage than a similarly geared warrior in t15, is just sad.
    Well they said they were fixing the pre-pull stuff to not work anymore, and hopefully they compensate.
    Killing machine would just in turn make us hit harder during cooldowns, and effect burst just as much, though.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Varabently View Post
    I'm going to compare Ret to Spriest because I think their toolkit is much better than ours.

    They can spam heals if they want and have multiple types of heals like ProM, Renew, and Flash Heal. Ret gets Flash Heal that uses 1/3 of our mana pool. Priest's flash heal is about 1/16 of their mana pool. This means they can burst heal for a bit if necessary, where ret is limited to 2 or 3 at a time.

    Spriest get Mass Dispel which is just so so strong. Not only can they cleanse CCs, but offensively dispel.

    Now Ret has strong burst right now in pvp, but outside of the burst, we don't hit very hard and are very susceptible to burst. This is why they are underrepresented. Blizz is always very careful not to make Ret too strong, and that's fine. But ever since bubble can be dispelled (often preemptively) we don't have the tools necessary to compete against mages, feral druids, and destro locks.
    i definitely agree about the heals, i couldnt believe what i was reading on these boards a month ago when spriests were saying their heals weren't as good as rets. fast forward to after the hybrid nerf, and here we have rets struggling to heal themselves up after a bubble(cast 3 flash of lights and were still in the red), and spriests still causing the majority of arena games to time out with their crazy support and off heals.

  20. #80
    Ok, posted my daily tweet.

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