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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by thegoodrogue View Post
    Ok, posted my daily tweet.
    Did you comment on the thing GC said about rets not wanting sustained damage (lol)?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninji
    "lets loose quik" is the only alliance pride I am aware of

  2. #82
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runewrath View Post
    Anaxie! Tell me it's not true that Requital is going WW for 5.2.
    My Monk is about 8 ilevels behind my Paladin, TBH Ret has been missing a lot for a long time and I just put up with it because I really like Ret but I haven't enjoyed the class in months. I put up with it in Cata but when the opportunity was presented to me to reroll a Monk since we have Anaxie and Butosai and really don't need a 3rd Ret I jumped at it.

    I have to tell you a Monk plays 100% like Ret but with the additions of AE without being pissed off about needing a target. Amazing mobility to the point it makes it fun instead of frustrating. No super high burst at the start then slowly dropping off but instead middle of the pack start up and great sustained DPS while still able finish in the same DPS range as a geared Ret.

    IMO a Monk is a more refined Ret, They did a great job on the system. Fists of Fury is a great energy pool ability. Haste works really good with the energy system and the Chi system. It just feels like everything they should have done when designing the combo system for Ret went into a Monk. I'd suggest for anyone that feel they have reached a point with Ret where the class is stale give Windwalker a shot more fun than I have had since TBC.

    I'll still play my Ret in alt raids and if I'm needed to but so far great change and long over due.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    My Monk is about 8 ilevels behind my Paladin, TBH Ret has been missing a lot for a long time and I just put up with it because I really like Ret but I haven't enjoyed the class in months. I put up with it in Cata but when the opportunity was presented to me to reroll a Monk since we have Anaxie and Butosai and really don't need a 3rd Ret I jumped at it.

    I have to tell you a Monk plays 100% like Ret but with the additions of AE without being pissed off about needing a target. Amazing mobility to the point it makes it fun instead of frustrating. No super high burst at the start then slowly dropping off but instead middle of the pack start up and great sustained DPS while still able finish in the same DPS range as a geared Ret.

    IMO a Monk is a more refined Ret, They did a great job on the system. Fists of Fury is a great energy pool ability. Haste works really good with the energy system and the Chi system. It just feels like everything they should have done when designing the combo system for Ret went into a Monk. I'd suggest for anyone that feel they have reached a point with Ret where the class is stale give Windwalker a shot more fun than I have had since TBC.

    I'll still play my Ret in alt raids and if I'm needed to but so far great change and long over due.
    That's actually exactly how I feel playing the monk. A lot of mechanics really just feel like they are things that could have just been given to Ret, but were throw onto another class and is stuff Ret will never see.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    That's actually exactly how I feel playing the monk. A lot of mechanics really just feel like they are things that could have just been given to Ret, but were throw onto another class and is stuff Ret will never see.
    cough Touch of Karma cough Chi Wave cough

    I agree 100%. Feeling what ACTUAL mobility is gives me a sad when I go back to Ret. Additionally, the fact that WW currently is the diametric opposite of ret's DPS structure and mentality (in that it has approximately NO notable burst, just great sustained) also gives me a sad.

    It's like, the dev team had this great idea for how to make ret viable, ran it by the class designers, and they said "Nay, verily, these abilities are reminiscent of monks! We shall bestow these ideas unto them, and in their place, ret paladins shall receive more glittery spell effects.... Bitches love glittery spell effects."
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
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    20k and counting...

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    cough Touch of Karma cough Chi Wave cough

    I agree 100%. Feeling what ACTUAL mobility is gives me a sad when I go back to Ret. Additionally, the fact that WW currently is the diametric opposite of ret's DPS structure and mentality (in that it has approximately NO notable burst, just great sustained) also gives me a sad.

    It's like, the dev team had this great idea for how to make ret viable, ran it by the class designers, and they said "Nay, verily, these abilities are reminiscent of monks! We shall bestow these ideas unto them, and in their place, ret paladins shall receive more glittery spell effects.... Bitches love glittery spell effects."
    Dude bitches do love glittery spell effects. My GoAK brings all the boys to the yard.

    But seriously, yes, mainly those two abilities. Also Ring of Peace, all feel like they could have fit extremely well in Ret's archetype, but nope. And IDK, I'm still a little disconcerted that Ret and Enhance got extremely few changes while Rogues (who were also struggling) and monks (who were also struggling) are seeing some pretty damn strong buffs. It does, indeed, give me a sad.

    Mainly because if I want to PvP on my pally (he's my main) I have to pvp another season as Holy.

  6. #86
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Dude bitches do love glittery spell effects. My GoAK brings all the boys to the yard.

    But seriously, yes, mainly those two abilities. Also Ring of Peace, all feel like they could have fit extremely well in Ret's archetype, but nope. And IDK, I'm still a little disconcerted that Ret and Enhance got extremely few changes while Rogues (who were also struggling) and monks (who were also struggling) are seeing some pretty damn strong buffs. It does, indeed, give me a sad.

    Mainly because if I want to PvP on my pally (he's my main) I have to pvp another season as Holy.
    Even went back to streaming again, I quit for a while on my Pally because imo watching a Ret stream is like watching paint dry. I have a lot more fun on my Monk so back to streaming. We'll see how it goes but so far this is most likely my new main unless something really odd happens.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    Even went back to streaming again, I quit for a while on my Pally because imo watching a Ret stream is like watching paint dry. I have a lot more fun on my Monk so back to streaming. We'll see how it goes but so far this is most likely my new main unless something really odd happens.
    Yeah especially with abilities Storm, Earth, and Fire... and all sort of other changes... I don't see the "fun" gap between Ret and WW shrinking any time soon; in fact it's expanding drastically. Oh, and grats to all monks on free challenge mode gear... Ring of Peace + First of Fury makes any challenge mode into a joke.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by naturetauren View Post
    I am not taking this game seriously anymore but there is one thing that pisses me off:

    The paladin is forced to selfbuff himself every 30 seconds to do viable damage. Most boring crap ive ever seen. Feral druids got it too. Who come up with this idea? Why is it there? To be "fun"? To "make the spec unique"?

    Atleast 5.2 is fixing the heal problems. And the selfheal on selfless healer will buff survival a bit with the wonderfull hot effect.
    When they decided that paladin was going to get the roque starter kit as resource system, they considered it a brilliant idea to give us a finisher like slice and dice we have to maintain because it is SOOOOOO much fun. In the meanwhile roque designers figured that it probably would be a nicer idea to have it refreshed automatically but that information has not ben passed to the pally team. I bet the idea for this class revamp came up after watching Zalgradis PVP/Storyline 3. So unfortunate we haven't got stealth too. :P

    On a more serious note, I am not quite sure how a hot should improve rets survivability in a game that is mostly centered around burst.

    We are pretty viable in PvE I guess but If you want to play meele anyway and want to avoid switching to heal or tank, it makes more sense to play an other meele class with at least too meele specs.

  9. #89
    I love the look and feel of Ret and have also spent so much effort, time and gold on him. But I sometimes just wanna bench him and move on to a literally "better" class. Not FOTM. I mean, consistently better.

    In PVE, we are generally ok. I'm my guild's top DPS at about 75K DPS sustained with 483 ilevel, and I know my class inside and out. I'm having a blast on a monk, but Ret's PVE mechanics are solid (even if DPS numbers are not) and haste tanking as prot is fun as hell (I'm the #3 healer when I tank :P). No complaints mechanicswise tho.

    In PVP however I just want to delete my toon. I get my gf's Spriest which is 15-20 ilevels below me and kill with half the effort. Sigh :\

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-06 at 09:47 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Migrin View Post
    When they decided that paladin was going to get the roque starter kit as resource system, they considered it a brilliant idea to give us a finisher like slice and dice we have to maintain because it is SOOOOOO much fun. In the meanwhile roque designers figured that it probably would be a nicer idea to have it refreshed automatically but that information has not ben passed to the pally team. I bet the idea for this class revamp came up after watching Zalgradis PVP/Storyline 3. So unfortunate we haven't got stealth too. :P

    On a more serious note, I am not quite sure how a hot should improve rets survivability in a game that is mostly centered around burst.

    We are pretty viable in PvE I guess but If you want to play meele anyway and want to avoid switching to heal or tank, it makes more sense to play an other meele class with at least too meele specs.
    I think inqusition may stay solely because we need to give other classes a chance to know we're building up to burst. We can't all be 150K oblit Frost DKs :PPP.

    But why can't they just make inq do something extra beyond "press me or lose 30% holy damage lol". Make it do damage (maybe 50% of a TV?) at least.

    In PVP sometimes you get opponents to this weird state of HP where you really dont know to TV or refresh. Like say, 30% health. Inq runs out in 2 seconds. Refresh or TV? If you TV, you may get the kill. If you don't kill, your successive damage has just dropped like a stone. If you had refreshed, you just gave his healer a global to heal him.

    Argh. And no, it doesn't make for "fun and interesting gameplay".

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Dude bitches do love glittery spell effects. My GoAK brings all the boys to the yard.

    But seriously, yes, mainly those two abilities. Also Ring of Peace, all feel like they could have fit extremely well in Ret's archetype, but nope. And IDK, I'm still a little disconcerted that Ret and Enhance got extremely few changes while Rogues (who were also struggling) and monks (who were also struggling) are seeing some pretty damn strong buffs. It does, indeed, give me a sad.

    Mainly because if I want to PvP on my pally (he's my main) I have to pvp another season as Holy.
    Well i play enhance atm in pvp and elem in pve, and as long as you are dps shaman and get blanket silence you are screwed which is probably the same with retri, but im not sure if rogues and monks were really struggling that much. Right now if rogue open on you and pop all cds he can still kill you in stuns unless you trinket or pop survival cd/blink or something, they have good survival cds too, i quess they just miss the damage outside of the cds but making them solo kill people in kidney in 5.2 surely isnt the way. I dont play my monk much often but when i do its fun, the damage is nice (critting for 150k with rusing sun kick in pve with shitty blue gear, not sure about healing tho.) their cds are fun and powerfull and they can counter a lot of stuff with disarm, roll away, blanket silenc, 90% spell damage reduction for few sec and so on (from talents), they need few tweaks ye but making stuff like ring of peace and with 45 SECONDS cooldown.... they are just overdoing things like they did with warrs, compare arms at start of MoP with end of cata.

    I forgot to mention one thing with rogues, they are "struggling" but how come they are able to kill you without getting to melee range i know my gear isnt the best atm (cus im saving points for elem pvp in 5.2.) but still 60% resi and when i kite rogue in arena and he starts to spam shuriken toss on me and take 100k from me in 2 globals it sure is not fun, 2x 32k shuriken toss crit and 32k deadly poison crit just from spamming one button as melee class from like 20yr.
    Last edited by Ossiris; 2013-02-06 at 10:11 AM.

  11. #91
    For PVE, I think it may be because of the introduction of Monks into the player base. I see less Enhancement Shaman too.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Cariboulou View Post
    Did you comment on the thing GC said about rets not wanting sustained damage (lol)?
    I don't usually reply to the tweets already responded to. Usually just ask a question about when number tweaks are coming for ret, and talk about how the latest changes for "RBG/Arena utility" are mediocre/shit and ask about any changes for cleave/sustained damage. I keep it professional and hope he responds, a month later no response

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ossiris View Post
    Well i play enhance atm in pvp and elem in pve, and as long as you are dps shaman and get blanket silence you are screwed which is probably the same with retri, but im not sure if rogues and monks were really struggling that much. Right now if rogue open on you and pop all cds he can still kill you in stuns unless you trinket or pop survival cd/blink or something, they have good survival cds too, i quess they just miss the damage outside of the cds but making them solo kill people in kidney in 5.2 surely isnt the way. I dont play my monk much often but when i do its fun, the damage is nice (critting for 150k with rusing sun kick in pve with shitty blue gear, not sure about healing tho.) their cds are fun and powerfull and they can counter a lot of stuff with disarm, roll away, blanket silenc, 90% spell damage reduction for few sec and so on (from talents), they need few tweaks ye but making stuff like ring of peace and with 45 SECONDS cooldown.... they are just overdoing things like they did with warrs, compare arms at start of MoP with end of cata.

    I forgot to mention one thing with rogues, they are "struggling" but how come they are able to kill you without getting to melee range i know my gear isnt the best atm (cus im saving points for elem pvp in 5.2.) but still 60% resi and when i kite rogue in arena and he starts to spam shuriken toss on me and take 100k from me in 2 globals it sure is not fun, 2x 32k shuriken toss crit and 32k deadly poison crit just from spamming one button as melee class from like 20yr.
    Yeah, no. I pvp'd Ret/Rogue at the beginning of this xpac. Rogue is in a shitty place right now. A good rogue can do alright, but many rogues jumped ship to other classes for good reason. 32k crits are crap. That isn't a lot of damage at all. Right now, all you need to do to kill a rogue is a single stun, and they pop. No, I haven't seen the changes to them in 5.2 actualyl played in-game, but they are pretty crappy right now.

    And this newest iteration of Ring of Peace needed a lower cooldown. After they made it only defensive it was crappy in comparison to a half-the-cd 5 second stun.

  14. #94
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migrin View Post
    When they decided that paladin was going to get the roque starter kit as resource system, they considered it a brilliant idea to give us a finisher like slice and dice we have to maintain because it is SOOOOOO much fun. In the meanwhile roque designers figured that it probably would be a nicer idea to have it refreshed automatically but that information has not ben passed to the pally team. I bet the idea for this class revamp came up after watching Zalgradis PVP/Storyline 3. So unfortunate we haven't got stealth too. :P

    On a more serious note, I am not quite sure how a hot should improve rets survivability in a game that is mostly centered around burst.

    We are pretty viable in PvE I guess but If you want to play meele anyway and want to avoid switching to heal or tank, it makes more sense to play an other meele class with at least too meele specs.
    It's quite funny how you bring this up, Let's take a trip in the way back machine and end up in TOGC.........

    Warriors cried their eyes out for a Deep Wounds that would refresh and roll over not just refresh and lose the extra damage from the previous applied dot. Along comes a new Deep wounds that takes the original dot and allows it to finish ticking at full until the new dot picks up. At this time Ret got this innovative new talent called Righteous Vengeance, Now before it was a talent it was a set bonus but simple fact of the matter is this wasa hand me down! Rets were happy ( they had no idea they were deceived!) everywhere a new dot that was based off crit yay there was much rejoicing as crit was relatively useless for us at the time. Wait, What is this deception!!! This isn't a new ability it's a renamed ability this is the Warriors Deep Wounds that they hated.

    It's the same old song and dance, Ret gets the hand me downs that another class didn't want. They gave it to us with Warriors and deep wounds, They gave it to us from what Rogues hated and they realized it was shit. It's not going to change anytime soon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  15. #95
    i miss the days of TOGC twin valks was a retarded awesome fun fight on heroic so many good memories

    jumped on my ret yesterday for the first time in ages lol at least my rotation is still perfect haha idk why i just cant forget it but my damage is like just a little over what my monk tank is doing its crazy ... also ive nvr died so many times on my paladin b4 eva ...

    its strange but its more fun being a monk then ret atm

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    It's quite funny how you bring this up, Let's take a trip in the way back machine and end up in TOGC.........

    Warriors cried their eyes out for a Deep Wounds that would refresh and roll over not just refresh and lose the extra damage from the previous applied dot. Along comes a new Deep wounds that takes the original dot and allows it to finish ticking at full until the new dot picks up. At this time Ret got this innovative new talent called Righteous Vengeance, Now before it was a talent it was a set bonus but simple fact of the matter is this wasa hand me down! Rets were happy ( they had no idea they were deceived!) everywhere a new dot that was based off crit yay there was much rejoicing as crit was relatively useless for us at the time. Wait, What is this deception!!! This isn't a new ability it's a renamed ability this is the Warriors Deep Wounds that they hated.

    It's the same old song and dance, Ret gets the hand me downs that another class didn't want. They gave it to us with Warriors and deep wounds, They gave it to us from what Rogues hated and they realized it was shit. It's not going to change anytime soon.
    I think blizzard maneuverd itself in a very diffucult position. "Bring the Player not the class or spec" sounds like a super awesome design decision on first sight, but what it leads to is a bunch of specs that are all watered down and at the end feel rather generic. There are countless cases where they just adapted an ability or passive slightly and added it to an other class. I can understand that balance is important but now a days, to many specs just feel too similiar.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Migrin View Post
    I think blizzard maneuverd itself in a very diffucult position. "Bring the Player not the class or spec" sounds like a super awesome design decision on first sight, but what it leads to is a bunch of specs that are all watered down and at the end feel rather generic. There are countless cases where they just adapted an ability or passive slightly and added it to an other class. I can understand that balance is important but now a days, to many specs just feel too similiar.
    Honestly, I think this is an artificial problem. As long as each spec has a complex and interesting unique ability, homogenization shouldn't really be a problem. Look at wind walkers, they are a brand new spec and they don't really feel like the same old crap that has been re-packaged, with Storm, Earth, and Fire they are becoming even more interesting in unique. If Blizzard can make a brand new class unique, why would it be so hard to make a very old spec spec (Ret) fun, functional, and unique. There are plenty of ways to make a spec unique while still giving it the basics that anyone with the role has to have to function.

    Homogenization is nothing but a bull-crap rhetorical argument designed to keep crappy specs crappy, MMOs are still babies and have decades of iteration ahead of them. Acting like we have hit a brick wall and any future changes will just make the specs more similar is complete nonsense, the only reason such a thing would occur is because the developers are too lazy to create interesting new abilities, or in the case of Ret, just don't care to spend enough time on the spec to flesh it out and make it truly well designed.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migrin View Post
    I think blizzard maneuverd itself in a very diffucult position. "Bring the Player not the class or spec" sounds like a super awesome design decision on first sight, but what it leads to is a bunch of specs that are all watered down and at the end feel rather generic. There are countless cases where they just adapted an ability or passive slightly and added it to an other class. I can understand that balance is important but now a days, to many specs just feel too similiar.

    I agree with this sentiment. It seemed like a great idea for a long time to bring the player not the class but then you get to the point less of giving everyone similar spells but more gutting some classes (like Paladins) of their unique spells instead in turn watering us down (Still bitter about Sanctity aura loss TBH). While most classes/specs came out fine I think a few just hardly made it through at all.

    I think they need to keep the concept there at the core but abandon it on an over zealous level. They need to give identity back to those classes which need it and give them back some.
    -Retribution, the path of the protector or mender brought to it's natural conclusion; destroying evil before the weak need to be shielded from it, and before it can wound the innocent.
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  19. #99
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    We finished looking at Seal of Righteousness and Justice. Righteousness we ended up buffing by 50% so it should be a good choice against 4 targets instead of 6.

    Justice is much more complicated. It was intended as a PvP seal, but the damage loss is so significant and the snare just not that valuable (which is ironic when you consider Ret's history of not being able to catch things), and Burden of Guilt is there if you really do want to snare. Furthermore, just buffing Justice's damage risks Seal twisting in PvE becoming a thing, where you stack up Censure and then swap to Justice. It could be cool if designed right, but would probably just be annoying. We just don't have much room to buff Justice, and players might still forsake it in PvP.

    So, we're going to redesign it and attempt to solve another problem, which is Ret's damage outside of cooldowns (which are quite potent). Justice will now proc (and Judgment will count for the proc) a stacking debuff on the target that increases the damage of your next Templar's Verdict. With 5 stacks, this will be a big hit (but not an insta-gib) and opens up some interesting decisions about how to use Holy Power, such as Inquisition or WoG, if you're trying to hold TV. While Truth + Censure will still do more sustained damage overall, there is a chance Justice will see some situational use in PvE, and we're okay with that. Justice is a Ret-only thing, so it should be a Seal they actually use. It won't snare at all, which I expect some will call a devastating nerf, but again, there's Burden of Guilt if you really need a snare.


    Blue quote, IDK if you guys noticed that, just popped up a few minutes ago.
    That Justice effect will probably end up being too good... but I get their point. The problem is, we just ramp up into cooldowns and someone is going to get obliterated. It doesn't help in the utility aspect, but do you guys think Ret/Rogue or Ret/Monk will work? With freedoms and stuff we are mostly a buff-bot out of cooldowns, while the other classes CC spam and pressure, but the Justice change is going to make our burst even stronger.

    The only problem is no justice snare, but most pallies were still using truth anyway and not taking BOG.

  20. #100
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    I like Righteousness change. 4 is a sweet number to change seals. Not too sure about Justice yet till I see opinions from some of our more experienced ret.

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