Rogue 5.2 PVP

[Deleted]

So Ive heard that rogues are looking good for 5.2 and Im just wondering as to why this is? has it got something to do with this:

Why did you give 50 energy for rogues in tier bonus ? IMO it means OP for sub, 5+ amb. Do you think energy is a big problem ?
We were trying to give them more burst for PvP (ironically they needed it) but considering +30 instead. (Source)

If not whats changed? why are they looking good.

[Deleted]

We're not looking "good" per-se. The class is virtually unchanged. We're just getting some decent quality of life issues ironed out while the other classes seem to be toned down to somewhat match our current level. The one change to take note of is the baselined Preparation - that will prove quite useful. Other than that, we're not really gaining anything extraordinary.

If you don't like how the class plays now, you probably won't like it in 5.2 either.

[Deleted]

Im currently not really playing anything in pvp and was looking to start up again in 5.2 thats the reason for me asking. Thanks for your help

[Aspect of Death]

Prep is no longer a talent, and now you have to choose between prep and ss. I for one love it.

OT: But instead of starting a new thread, i just started playing my rogue again, so i have a few questions!

i had Elusiveness, but decided to try cheat death for random bg, and is the talent bugged by 100%? before it procced and you were alive for maybe 5sec more, now it procs and you either die instantly after the proc, or 0.2sec after. Bugg or due to the 100+k crits people are doing today?
Also on gear.. Before it was Crit>all, and now its Haste>all (except hit/exper cap)? Because people still go Crit>all, opinions?

[Austilias]

Rogue is looking great for 5.2. Level 90 talents are now to die for; 30 yard auto-attacks, 5 free combo points per min/kill and Anticipation in its current form. Other little changes here and there as well as the nerfing of other blatantly OP classes (Warriors, etc) should mean Rogues will be present in more than a tiny 0.2% of the top arena teams as they were in 5.1, to say the least.

[Arcanist]

From what I've read about the PTR, rogues are wildly overpowered there with these proposed changes. I don't PvP on mine, but I'm already seeing rogues everywhere on my server, in preparation for 5.2.

I just wish Blizzard would make the class actually fun to play rather than slapping an OP bandaid on the class and calling it a day. Like the atrociously slow and clunky energy system. Nothing screams fun like sitting there for seconds not being able to do anything other than autoattack because "not enough energy", am I right?

[Lemons]

I just wish Blizzard would make the class actually fun to play rather than slapping an OP bandaid on the class and calling it a day.

Yea that's the one thing that kinda depresses me. Sub PvP is still going to feel awkward as hell with its 4 finishers, 5.2 is doing nothing to change that.

[Verain]

From what I've read about the PTR, rogues are wildly overpowered there with these proposed changes.

I 100% promise they won't be nearly as ludic as warriors are on live.

Mostly we are just seeing unnerfs. Recup will be almost back to what it healed for in Cata (glyphed will be about even), prep baseline is actually an unnerf (being that nothing but sub has been viable since they took prep away from them). Shuriken Throw turns off your ability for your autoattacks to proc utility poison (read- your snare), as well as no longer proccing that, so the white damage at range is pretty much what you are getting out of it. That will be a decent buff. The additional 20 energy we'll have versus live is nice as well, but certainly not earthshaking, given how bad rogue burst is on live.

Nothing screams fun like sitting there for seconds not being able to do anything other than autoattack because "not enough energy", am I right?

I'd rather have a wad to blow than just spam globals, so 100% disagree.

[Wow]

Recup will be almost back to what it healed for in Cata (glyphed will be about even)

If no one ever hits you sure But the sec you take any dmg recup's healing drops 30%.

cata fully talented 4.8%
mop 5.2 glyphed 4.5%
mop 5.2 glyphed + battle fatigue 3.15%
5.2 unglyphed + battle fatigue 2.8%
5.1 + battle fatigue 2.1%

[Squirl]

If no one ever hits you sure But the sec you take any dmg recup's healing drops 30%.

cata fully talented 4.8%
mop 5.2 glyphed 4.5%
mop 5.2 glyphed + battle fatigue 3.15%
5.2 unglyphed + battle fatigue 2.8%
5.1 + battle fatigue 2.1%

Not to mention Imp Recup gave a damage reduction.

[Arcanist]

I'd rather have a wad to blow than just spam globals, so 100% disagree.

There's a middle ground here. I don't want to spam globals either, but I would like a more fluid/active style.

[Deleted]

we are guna have fun until someone notices that you trinketed something and proceeds to kill you in a stun.

[Verain]

If no one ever hits you sure But the sec you take any dmg recup's healing drops 30%.

cata fully talented 4.8%
mop 5.2 glyphed 4.5%
mop 5.2 glyphed + battle fatigue 3.15%
5.2 unglyphed + battle fatigue 2.8%
5.1 + battle fatigue 2.1%

I didn't count the 20% self healing talent. You'll forgive me for doing so- normally you had either that OR improved recuperate, both was rather rare. But yes, you are correct. I was thinking about it being more like 4% then versus the 3.15% in 5.2.

[Speaknoevil]

-Cloak of Shadows on a baseline Preparation will be overpowered.
-Shadow Dance and Subterfuge Subtlety openers with Marked for Death + Cloak and Dagger will be gimmicky and overpowered.
-No baseline Deadly Throw is still stupid, but the change to make it interrupt with 3 CPs is probably too strong.
-Recuperate changes aren't enough to make rogues have the ability to control and balance out at all.
-Cooldowns are still too long, Prep was the wrong answer to the problem.

tldr:
Rogues will be in a good spot for the wrong reasons.

Oh, and for the love of God(figure of speech) remove S&D and put the bonuses in Recuperate. CP generation is not good enough to support all of the *timer* finishing moves as well as Kidney/Evisc

[Verain]

-Cloak of Shadows on a baseline Preparation will be overpowered.

We'll see. I sorta doubt it. Rogues often take prep on live, and the double cloak often just means that mage/spriest/druid has to wait another whole 10 seconds to score a kill.

-Shadow Dance and Subterfuge Subtlety openers with Marked for Death + Cloak and Dagger will be gimmicky and overpowered.

I think Cloak and Dagger will be overpowered, but I do think it will need to be stacked to make it so, as you say. I think you are wildly overestimating energy though, and how it gets spent on these sorts of things. I don't think this is an issue with Subterfuge, Subt., Dance, or even the new MfD.

-No baseline Deadly Throw is still stupid, but the change to make it interrupt with 3 CPs is probably too strong.

I played with this for hundreds of games as a combat rogue a few seasons ago. Granted, combat needed all the help it could get, but even 1 CP interrupts barely did anything. The interrupt itself is very short in duration, and the flight time of the missile reduces the power of the ability. Rogues had this on gloves baseline for seasons without issue- it was really only the highest levels of play where this was a problem, and only versus teams with very little compensatory counter CC. I think you could remove the restriction entirely and the move would still be a harsh talent choice. I think deadly throw should be baseline.

-Recuperate changes aren't enough to make rogues have the ability to control and balance out at all.

Recuperate helps on live, but it is simply too little healing. Honestly, the problem is that recuperate was designed around a healing value, then everyone got a mile of burst and it became a joke because healing burst was able to 10->80 you in a couple seconds or one big heal, and so then Blizzard put a global nerf on healing. Recuperate should be buffed to counter that nerf because RECUPERATE IS NOT WHAT BATTLE FATIGUE IS MEANT TO COUNTER. Either way, this buff is a start.

-Cooldowns are still too long, Prep was the wrong answer to the problem.

Bullshit. Cooldowns are fine, except maybe evasion should be 2 minutes and maybe cloak could be 90 seconds. Maybe. Prep is always the answer. The few rogue specs that were viable without prep were nerfed or had the items they relied on nerfed. Essentially every rogue spec that was glad capable in the history of this game has had prep. If they want us in pvp, baseline prep is step #1. It would only have been an interesting choice if the other two talents were like Divine Shield and Charge.

---------- Post added 2013-01-29 at 04:45 AM ----------

Also, who casts any more? I mean, how often do you think the interrupt will even come up? If it had a blanket silence attached, I'd believe you. But up until the most overpowered class (by rep numbers) in the history of the game got its blanket silence removed THIS PATCH, the only class to ever lose a blanket silence was us. Improved Kick.

[Speaknoevil]

You just fleshed out the points I was making, aside from preparation we mostly agree.

Bullshit. Cooldowns are fine, except maybe evasion should be 2 minutes and maybe cloak could be 90 seconds.

So first you say it's bullshit, then you agree with me.

If we moved away from prep [and hey step isn't on prep so that's void] we could get elusiveness reduction from recuperate or something along the lines of actual self sustainability.
___

I've been pvping since burning crusade, I am guilty of abusing deadly throw.

[roguegetnerfed]

im so sick of every othere class qqing about rogues and how they are op before the patch even hits.. sence the game has started there has been no class that has been played more and left for dead.rogues have been nerfed more then any othere class.. 5.2 is not even here yet and they nerfed every buff they gave us but shadow step. we have like no one in the top bracket of arena and thats the way the game wants it . we hit for 20k back stabd and have to apply a bleed that takes away from burst to do more damage instead of letting hemo be the bleed they had to nerf that aswell i ve been playing my rogue for 6 yrs now and i ve had enough i quit just like evey othere rogue because the game hates us. every othere class also has more cc then us now. ares is every 2 min compared to whenever they feal like it or 45 sec at the most for any othere type of cc.

[Verain]

So first you say it's bullshit, then you agree with me.

Every "get rid of prep" point normally addresses the cooldowns on:
Vanish, Blind, Evasion, Cloak, Smoke bomb.

I think a 2 minute vanish is appropriate. I was wildly opposed to the 3 minute one we suffered through at the dawn of this patch. I think blind is fine where it is. I would like to see dismantle modified- as it is, monks have a strictly better one (ranged, possible buff, same cooldown), and all disarms have taken dismantle's kit (disarms both weapons, gets ranged weapon). I don't really care what they change to make it better, but it's super generic right now. Cloak is at 2 minutes, and I think that's a bit easy to set us up for kills. Cloak started as 60 second and has spent most of the game totally fair at 90. It could stay the same, or come down.

So I agree with you on two cooldowns. You weren't very specific: when someone normally hints that they'd like prep gone and "cooldowns reduced", they aren't normally just referring to modest buffs to evasion and cloak- whereas I think that's about the only buff we should really be getting in that direction.

If we moved away from prep [and hey step isn't on prep so that's void] we could get elusiveness reduction from recuperate or something along the lines of actual self sustainability.

Just like Combat rogues got compensatory buffs at the top of their tree in BC, LK, and Cata, to ensure that they weren't absent or had to spec prep in order to be viable. Just like Mutilate had a lot of other things going for it, which is why you saw rogues taking that to the top ranks of pvp during BC, LK, and Cata as well. I mean, I sure remember how people would go "Hrm, Hunger for Blood or Prep? Both so tempting..."

Oh, wait, that's sarcasm! In fact:
> Rogues have never been balanced or viable without prep.
> Splitting gap closer and prep this season has led to the lowest representation of I think any class in WoW history above 2200 arenas
> Prep has been a defining feature of rogue pvp since WoW alpha.
> Prep has been a driving and powerful feature of the class since that time.
> Prep is one of the few things distinguishing WoW rogues from copycat classes in other games.
> Prep is powerful and interesting.

___

I've been pvping since burning crusade, I am guilty of abusing deadly throw.

I think it's probably a false concern at this point. When they took it off the gloves I was sad, but I got why. There were times it could be abused. With the ability to gain CPs from ranged, it could be sillier. It went into the combat tree, because combat could honestly use extra control (it takes super long to build CPs, and at the time it had no real gap closer), but it saw little use there. I really tried to arena as combat, but ultimately it was obvious that the draw of long stun simply couldn't make up for the lack of on demand burst, gap closing, and even guaranteed sustained (old bandit's guile was so bad in pvp I'm convinced no dev ever took it to arena, and I know they have to have top rogues on their team). I honestly think that the spec would be viable if red insight also read "...and you are immune to fear, stun, root, and snare effects", greatly reducing the amount of CC that could hit you during it to like feral cat levels.

Very few casters really cast that much, and when they do it's often such a fast cast that deadly can't interrupt it (unlike kick or counterspell, there's a lot more lag with a move that is both on the global and has a flight time). The interrupt duration is also very short. Still, I guess we'll see.

My gripe with this "experimental iteration" game design is that I don't feel we are working towards a goal. I think if they magically were handed a perfectly balanced rogue by a genie, that they would sadly dump it into the garbage disposal the next time they redesign talents or change us to a fairy-pool based system of talents. We've seen huge redesigns in the last two expansions, and in the two before that we always got a bunch of stuff tacked on to the ends of the talent trees. So we have no reason to assume that anything that is balanced now will be in a year and a half. For all we know by then interrupts will have thirty second cooldowns and they'll have taken out blind and gouge, and casters will only be able to stack a couple instants before being forced into hardcasting. We just don't know. So this conservative game design where they give us an ability and see if it sucks or not is dumb- it would be like, an asteroid is hitting the earth in 18 months and you spend all your time studying tadpoles- maybe interesting from a pure science perspective, but it won't change anything or have practical ramifications. I don't need them to iterate, I need abilities that can take me to a decent rating and ensure that "rerolling should be fun" doesn't just mean "rerolling from rogue to warrior should be fun".