GC's tweet for lack of a dps burst cd for shadow priests

[Mietosis]

Would it not be a sure bet that MFI will benefit from mastery more than haste? Reasoning for thinking this ;

Divine insight - Means we get more uptime on DP which means in the longrun, more MFI. Stacking mastery will give us a higher chance to proc the DI and thus mean even more uptime on DP. Pretty sure more uptime will beat the haste stacking some people have suggested.

[manthrax]

Please don't say "you're a hybrid not a pure DPS class". We are still supposed to do the same amount of dmg, just that our extra spells focus on support, compare hymn of hope to timewarp, every class brings something useful, it's not like we're gonna stand and heal half the time brah.
dmg wise we're still supposed to be on pair with pure dps, otherwise no one would roll a hybrid and dps on it.

and ramp up time, aren't warlocks supposed to have that too then since they're also dotters? nah they can insta nuke their dots with 2 buttons including using a CD on it, they can also move and cast, pop their big monster, whatever.

Everyone is supposed to do the same amount of damage. But damage and burst are two different things.

[Surarn]

I for one like the fact that Shadow Priests dont have a burst cd. But i think that should result in us having higher overall dps and we really dont. There is no on use trinket this tier that is viable.

With the new insanity, wouldnt that also affect DI because of the higher uptime of DP?

Been thinking alot of what i think would fix Shadow Priests. And for now i think buffing Mind Flay would be a good try and i think Blizzard should try it.

[Alidie]

Everyone is supposed to do the same amount of damage. But damage and burst are two different things.

Sure, but with every other class having burst, why not us?

[Surarn]

Sure, but with every other class having burst, why not us?

Because not every class should be the same. If you want to have a bigger burst for a certain period of time i would say save your Fiend and use it there.

However, buff our overall dmg since we dont have a burst cd.

[Alidie]

Because not every class should be the same. If you want to have a bigger burst for a certain period of time i would say save your Fiend and use it there.

However, buff our overall dmg since we dont have a burst cd.

I'd rather have a dps cd than overall higher dmg to compete on burn phase.

[Surarn]

I'd rather have a dps cd than overall higher dmg to compete on burn phase.

Since Blizzard made this change to Shadow i think its you that have to reroll. Not Blizzard changing their entire idea for a whole class.

[zito]

Because not every class should be the same. If you want to have a bigger burst for a certain period of time i would say save your Fiend and use it there.

However, buff our overall dmg since we dont have a burst cd.

Implementing a burst cd wouldn't make the same as other classes.

Insanity is an overall buff to sustain dps. It is not a burst cd and spriest need a burst cd not for dps but for burst.

---------- Post added 2013-01-29 at 07:50 PM ----------

Not Blizzard changing their entire idea for a whole class.

Their entire idea for this class is to not have a burst cd?

Ya no...

[Surarn]

Implementing a burst cd wouldn't make the same as other classes.

Insanity is an overall buff to sustain dps. It is not a burst cd and spriest need a burst cd not for dps but for burst.

---------- Post added 2013-01-29 at 07:50 PM ----------




Their entire idea for this class is to not have a burst cd?

Ya no...

All Talents in that Tier is a buff to sustain dmg.

Blizzard made an entire uniqe class, we dont have high burst for some period of time and then alot lower for the rest. We are a class that are overall strong and finish strong aswell. But the problem is that we arent strong enough overall, we need to get buffed there.

And yes, Blizzards idea with Spriests are that we should not have a burst cd.

[Falsified]

That doesn't mean our dps outside of execute should be garbage, which it is. They need to buff it. If they think we are fine on single target, I would not be surprised to see SP population decline heavily. A lot already stopped or went lock.
And we should have a cd, or a mechanic that makes haste actually worth a damn, and this should be freaking baseline. Not through talents.

[snaxattax]

DP change seems it'd favor mastery, but insanity would favor haste... dilemma.

not really, stacking haste in between breakpoints can cause your DP DOT (and your insanity channel duration) to become shorter, potentially putting a gap in between your insanities, whereas mastery (assuming SWI will eventually benefit from mastery) just gives you extra insanity ticks from each channel.

normally this wouldn't be an issue, but it may be one in t15 due to the 30% haste proc meta gem. if it procs in the middle of two DPs it might put you in an awkward place where you cast a haste-buffed-DP and then lose out on 1-1.5 seconds of insanity because the DoT falls off early.

[Drfireburns]

That doesn't mean our dps outside of execute should be garbage, which it is. They need to buff it. If they think we are fine on single target, I would not be surprised to see SP population decline heavily. A lot already stopped or went lock.

And I'm following right behind.

[clevin]

Every class except priest have it, so why not priest too? And no, for the love of god, DP is not a DPS CD. FFS, just think of DP as a regular dot.
And we're not talking about any execute (aka SW, drain soul, execute, kill shot) but a DPS CD a la Ascendance, Dark Soul, incarnation, arcane power..

The OP specifically mentions being ina burn phase of a boss. Now, sure, you can have burn phases that arent the last % of DPS and so aren't really execute phases, but...

And if you want a DPS CD then you need to give up the DPS somewhere else or you move spriest DPS up. If you DO buff spriest DPS then you need to make sure that it doesn't get out of hand as gear scales. So... what's the actual complaint here? Is it that spriest DPS is too low? That during burn phases you feel less useful?

This thread and the tweet to GC are good examples of what Blizzard generally doesn't value - people designing something for their class without regard to the impact on the overall game. Identify the problem clearly... If it's low dps that's one issue. Low burst is another but then you have to also identify why high burst on bosses is needed outside of execute. After all, by definition bosses are longer fights. If two classes each do 100k DPS (for example), is it really important that Class A does that by bursting and then drifting down and Class B does it by ramping up and then remaining at an overall level?

Again, if you guys are feeling spriest DPS is low, that's very different than saying "No, DPS is fine, we just want Shiny Fun Button."

[Cookie]

The actual complaints are that shadow priests have bottom of the pack dps atm, combined with awful scaling this means that we'll be even worse in the upcoming tiers. In addition to this we have no damage cds, meaning that we're further behind other classes on any fights where there's time windows where you need to deal additional damage/breaks in damage (allowing other classes to get their cds bk up), and almost every fight in the game currently has something like this (garalon is the only fight in the current tier that doesn't). This is excluding additional issues, like our dps suffering significantly more than most specs while moving.

To compensate for all of this we can multidot (which is great, but affli locks are bettter at it without all the issues above), bring a minor raid cd, vampiric embrace, and some minor healing (Halo, and possibly PoM). This simply isn't enough compensation to warrant bringing a sp over a different class, without all these issues.

[clevin]

The actual complaints are that shadow priests have bottom of the pack dps atm, combined with awful scaling this means that we'll be even worse in the upcoming tiers. In addition to this we have no damage cds, meaning that we're further behind other classes on any fights where there's time windows where you need to deal additional damage/breaks in damage (allowing other classes to get their cds bk up), and almost every fight in the game currently has something like this. This is excluding additional issues, like our dps suffering significantly more than most specs while moving.

To compensate for all of this we can multidot (which is great, but affli locks are bettter at it without all the issues above), bring a minor raid cd, vampiric embrace, and some minor healing (Halo, and possibly PoM). This simply isn't enough compensation to warrant bringing a sp over a different class, without all these issues.

OK then the complaint to Blizz and the ask should not just be "we want a DPS CD for burst" but, well, what you said. Now, it might be that the best thing to do would be moderate buffs to stock spells/dots AND a burst CD... but it might not be that a burst CD is what's best for the class from 5.2 on.

AS for dpsing on the move, my Balance druid would like a word with you...

[Spammer of the Horde]

Pve buffs will make shadow priests into s5 dk's in pvp. They have to be careful.

[Cookie]

If sp are going to stay without a real dps cd like every other spec has access to we should have other advantages to compensate for that, even if our overall dps is the same. The easiest way to solve sp's issues right now is simply to give us a dps cd, assuming that the numbers are suitable this would eliminate one of our big weaknesses (which we have too many of atm) and get our single target dps to an acceptable level.

Balance and sp has about the same decrease from dpsing while moving as far as I know. Single target dps wise you should be about the same, though balance has dps cds. Just like shadow (& elemental) there's no real reason to bring a balance over a lock, mage or even hunter atm.


I disagree that sp's are way too strong in pvp atm, but even if they were it wouldn't be difficult to buff them without affecting pvp significantly (or even compensate with pvp nerfs). We have a whole bunch of talents/skills with no real pve use that they can tweak as much as they want and buffing things like mind flay (or to an extent even VE) won't benefit pvp much.

[Malkavon]

OK then the complaint to Blizz and the ask should not just be "we want a DPS CD for burst" but, well, what you said. Now, it might be that the best thing to do would be moderate buffs to stock spells/dots AND a burst CD... but it might not be that a burst CD is what's best for the class from 5.2 on.

AS for dpsing on the move, my Balance druid would like a word with you...

Just because Balance Druids have a problem with mobility too, doesn't mean Shadow Priests can't complain about their utter lack of options and dependency on procs in those phases.

Shadow Priests need three things right now (four technically, but one isn't a simple spell addition).

1) An on-the-move ability.
2) A DPS CD to line up with burst phases/bloodlusts.
3) An out-of-combat Orb generator. Right now, Shadow Priests have the exact same resource problem that Balance Druids had in Cata. That's right, the resource system that they gave Shadow Priests in MoP has the same problem that they fixed for Balance Druids in the same patch. The mind, it boggles.

The fourth thing Shadow Priests need is less lolrandom. Between FDCL, DI, Shadowy Apparitions, and our Mastery, a large portion of our expected DPS is entirely dependent on random procs. That leads to a great deal of variance in DPS. I have literally done 15% more DPS on the same fight due solely to that variance, and that is frankly unacceptable.

The Mind Flay: Insanity change will in no way help us on mobility fights (it requires us to stand and channel), and it's not even going to be particularly good for 'lust phases. I mean, it's a buff to single-target focused DPS, no question, but it does not in any way fix the problems outlined above.

And yes, Ghostcrawler saying that Surge of Darkness was a burst DPS CD made literally no sense. It's like he doesn't actually know what any of the Shadow Priest abilities he talks about do, he just spouts them off because they sound vaguely like something relevant to the discussion.

[h3lladvocate]

Feel your pain guys... Holy is the only healing spec without a throughput CD (LOL PI). What is with them and Priests not having CD's?

[Ariadne]

If sp are going to stay without a real dps cd like every other spec has access to we should have other advantages to compensate for that, even if our overall dps is the same. The easiest way to solve sp's issues right now is simply to give us a dps cd, assuming that the numbers are suitable this would eliminate one of our big weaknesses (which we have too many of atm) and get our single target dps to an acceptable level.

Balance and sp has about the same decrease from dpsing while moving as far as I know. Single target dps wise you should be about the same, though balance has dps cds. Just like shadow (& elemental) there's no real reason to bring a balance over a lock, mage or even hunter atm.


I disagree that sp's are way too strong in pvp atm, but even if they were it wouldn't be difficult to buff them without affecting pvp significantly (or even compensate with pvp nerfs). We have a whole bunch of talents/skills with no real pve use that they can tweak as much as they want and buffing things like mind flay (or to an extent even VE) won't benefit pvp much.

SP is in many top player's opinion the strongest caster now in PvP. I don't know why you'd argue against that. "Just give us a DPS CD" doesn't sound like something Blizzard would ever do considering our state in PvP. What would you buff with Shadow Priest that wouldn't make them significantly stronger in PvP when it comes to "burst CD"? Buffing Mind Flay would devalue FDCL and make Mindbender stronger which would cause issues with balancing the two. Giving us an Archangel kind of spell would make us stronger in PvP.