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  1. #61
    Field Marshal Alidie's Avatar
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    If ppl are worried they will be too OP in PvP - make it dispellable!?

  2. #62
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    This does not surprise me.

    They have never liked priest. More so Shadow Priest.
    Only reason I still play my priest is because its my first and main char since wrath. Too attached to it.
    Hate lvl'ing so i'm not gonna re-roll to warlock.

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  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    SP is in many top player's opinion the strongest caster now in PvP. I don't know why you'd argue against that. "Just give us a DPS CD" doesn't sound like something Blizzard would ever do considering our state in PvP. What would you buff with Shadow Priest that wouldn't make them significantly stronger in PvP when it comes to "burst CD"? Buffing Mind Flay would devalue FDCL and make Mindbender stronger which would cause issues with balancing the two. Giving us an Archangel kind of spell would make us stronger in PvP.
    Last time I checked locks and especially mages had a significantly higher representation. A longer duration burst cd (say a damage boost for 20-30 seconds, 1-2 min cd) could easily be offset by nerfs to things like phantasm, fear, fiend, silence, horror, dispel, change mana costs or simply add/give longer cast time to things like dp/vt (even with a small dmg buff to compensate for the cast time this would be net nerfs for pvp while not changing pve). Flcd could easily (as an example) amplify mind spike more but have it retain the cast time if you wanted to keep it at the same comparative strenght to mindbender, though quite frankly I couldn't care less if we get another useless talent if that's the 'cost' to make us on par with the other classes in pve. If blizzard wants to nerf sps in pvp yet buff them in pve they have a ton of ways to make that happen.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Last time I checked locks and especially mages had a significantly higher representation. A longer duration burst cd (say a damage boost for 20-30 seconds, 1-2 min cd) could easily be offset by nerfs to things like phantasm, fear, fiend, silence, horror, dispel, change mana costs or simply add/give longer cast time to things like dp/vt (even with a small dmg buff to compensate for the cast time this would be net nerfs for pvp while not changing pve). Flcd could easily (as an example) amplify mind spike more but have it retain the cast time if you wanted to keep it at the same comparative strenght to mindbender, though quite frankly I couldn't care less if we get another useless talent if that's the 'cost' to make us on par with the other classes in pve. If blizzard wants to nerf sps in pvp yet buff them in pve they have a ton of ways to make that happen.

    Last time I checked a Warlock dies in 1 second the moment you have forced his defensive cooldowns. And those aren't hard to force. Warlocks are by far one of the weakest class in arena right now. I don't know what game you're playing. Mages were strong, they're still quite decent but compared to SP, they aren't as good. That you'd even mention Warlocks being as strong, if not stronger, than Shadow Priest in PvP...

    You talk about nerfing Phantasm, Fear, Fiend, Dispel etc but those affect Discipline too and Discipline is weak in PvP right now, which we would mean we would have to buff Discipline in other ways while still making them fun to play in PvP and not make them too strong in PvE. Much of their previous toolkit that they had in TBC/WotLK are gone and nerfing utility spells like the ones they have left is basically making Discipline very boring in PvP I think.

    Nerfing Silence would make it useless. Making a spell useless is not something Blizzard wants either I think. It is already a lot weaker than CS or SL. Horror is already weak.

    And FDCL amplifying Mind Spike would buff us in PvP, again...

    As you see, the things you suggest have impact on many things. You can't just change a bunch of things to justify adding a burst CD. There will be too many variables if you change too much stuff which can 'cause a lot of unwanted side effects.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alidie View Post
    If ppl are worried they will be too OP in PvP - make it dispellable!?
    Because you never CC anything when you burst, right? And there are other buffs which can protect it from being dispelled insta.
    Last edited by Ariadne; 2013-01-30 at 12:56 AM.

  5. #65
    I have burst dps in my shorts.
    Perfect example of why "community" forums are poisonous to the health of a development team. These developers are wasting hundreds of hours trying to stem the tide of incessant bitchery that would never, ever abate so long as these entitled, unfortunate human beings don't get their way.

  6. #66
    Stood in the Fire Ralikon's Avatar
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    the DP change and the new insanity is great for pve.

    for pvp, spriests are really getting boned damage wise on so many levels.
    1. Speccing for Insanity means you spec out of FDCL (which is crucial to have already)
    2. Insanity gives you a 6 second window to get your Mind Flay off (which hits pretty damn hard, just tested on ptr)
    3. The problem with speccing Insanity is SO many ways to deny the spriest of getting it off, simply dispel ONE dot from said target making insanity as a whole obsolete. You can also cc as soon as you get hit with the DP, and even with a trinket by the time you get out you only really have maybe 4-5 seconds if youre quick.

    Imo, to fix this would make FDCL a baseline.. and honestly dont know what they could do for insanity because its just really completely useless against a player with a mind

    along with the heals nerfs and the reverts of blankets for mage and lock, spriest went from most op caster 5.2 to mediocre

    EDIT: also forgot
    4. The new DP change is terrible for us, with it being dispelled rather instantly, and if used on a pally or monk can be dispelled without being heals (disease)
    Last edited by Ralikon; 2013-01-30 at 12:52 AM.
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  7. #67
    After years of playing shadow it took me about 1 month of inner struggle to replace my priest with a warlock. I started doing more dps on the lock at about ilvl475, with my priest being 490. Now with equalish gear the difference is even bigger (20% ish).
    The only fight when i switched back to priest for progression purposes was feng hc, due to offheal potential that spriest brings with divine star.

    Other than that it just bothers me how did blizz make one class so awesome (mostly mechanic wise) and other so terrible. It is an achievement.

  8. #68
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    Well, it'll be interesting to see what happens when they bring Affliction and Arcane back into line. Both are OP (PvE) right now and both will be nerfed for 5.2.

    Personally, playing Shadow since early BC, I can't really understand the hate. Yeah I get it AA was nice during Cata, the ramp up sucked though. I honestly don't think Spriests need a DPS burst cooldown. People just got spoiled during Cata.

    Granted GCs statement is pretty lacking, as in "I don't have any clue about Shadow, the other guy designes that" lacking, but we were in much worse states in the past than we are right now.

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  9. #69
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Good pvp locks are getting buffed this patch - bad locks who rely on blood fear are getting nerfed. Affliction damage scaling is extremely high in pve right now - in pvp this also matters however, while new gear will benefit everybody - afflictions damage will scale up faster than the rest (meanwhile, shadow has the worst stat scaling - so new gear only means we get relatively weaker).

    Mages aren't really getting nerfed this patch, what makes them strong in CC and burst is all staying - and they have over double the representation above 2200 of shadowpriests. In fact, the numbers are pretty telling in general:

    Shadowpriest representation above 2200: 5.1%
    Mage representation above 2200: 11.9%
    Warlock representation above 2200: 7%

    Shadow, meanwhile - is getting 12.5% weaker Flash Heals (while all other hybrids get 25-50% stronger heals). So - I've heard some people claim shadow is the new "best caster" over on the pvp forums - but it's people who aren't really aware of the current state of casters, and what's changing in 5.2. Personally I suspect Elemental Shamans to rise to about the same representation as Shadow next season - while locks and particularly mages will continue to dominate in representation.

    The return of Rogues to pvp - combined with buffs to lock survivability and the powerful (and unchanged) state of resto shamans this season will mean RLS returns in a big way too - so I expect to see lock representation rise fairly significantly as a result. This does also benefit Shadow slightly (via RPS), but RPS hasn't been the comp it was since s8 (simultaneous removal of defensive dispel magic and bloodlust from arenas - when shadow and rogues were the two best haste scaling specs in the game). Perhaps the best example of this is just last season, RLS was the best comp without contest - rogues were borderline OP, locks were strong, spriests were strong, rshamans were borderline OP - and yet RPS wasn't popular - while 7 of the 10 top teams in the world were RLS - just a handful of RPS's in the world even made gladiator: the RPS synergy has been broken for some time now, so rogue buffs won't affect RPS synergy as well as it will RLS synergy.

    Shadow obviously won't be in a bad position next season - our shatterplay/shattertree synergy is fantastic, and shadowplay could make a huge comeback this season with buffs to affliction - but will we be the best caster? No. The best ranged support hybrid? Likely (though Elemental is going to be on the rise and largely underappreciated for much of this season I suspect, so it will sneak up on us).
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  10. #70
    What does it mean "bring back in line"? In line with shadow? Then u need to bring most dps specs to this imaginary line. Demonology and destruction are way better than shadow as well and have sick burst on demand.
    What about dks, monks, rogues, enh shammies then? Shadow need buffs and major cleaning in mechanics departement.
    Sps werent spoiled in cata. They werent op, they were just fine.

  11. #71
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    What does it mean "bring back in line"? In line with shadow?
    Naah. I fully expect Affliction and Arcane to stay #1 and #2. Just the margin will be closer.

    Right now an Arcane mage deals 15% more DPS than the other top classes due to 6 stack weaving. Our mage and RL extrapolates a 15K DPS loss when they remove that in 5.2.

    So instead of trumping around in 115K he will do 100K like the rest of the classes.

    Shadow will still be bottom of the pit unless we can exploit ToF. But oh well.. someone has to be down there.

    Sps werent spoiled in cata. They werent op, they were just fine.
    Imho that ramp up and Buff juggling with constant DoT recasting was totally retarded. Not to mention stupidly long orb droughts ... yuck!
    Very glad they got rid of that crap.

    @Cooldown:
    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...35888349671424

    Heheh.. GC agrees with me.
    Last edited by Granyala; 2013-01-30 at 02:02 AM.

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  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Peacemaker65 View Post
    Why does everyone have to be burst? The diversity is waning.
    Normally I would agree with you. What the game needs in my opinion is more diversity and less homogenisation. And no, I don't mind if my character gets a bit weaker due to that in one sector, as long as he has other sectors where he excels at. However, the game seems to be designed based on almost all class-spec combinations being able to do almost everything any other combinations of the same role can. It would be amazing if each class-spec combination brought something unique to the raid group, even more than just one unique ability, and the design of the game was such that you could win a boss fight using various mixtures of those unique abilities. But it is not, due to the developers not being up to the task. So, in the state that the game is right now, having at least one burst damage ability with a long cooldown is quite needed. Otherwise, this luck of such an ability combined with our bad scaling with gear will lead to lots of painful moments for shadow priests that compete for spots in raiding guilds.
    Last edited by Drithien; 2013-01-30 at 02:10 AM.

  13. #73
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    But it is not, due to the developers not being up to the task.
    Wrong. It's actually the 10man raiding groups that drive the Homogenization forward because depending on Setup your raid can be severely crippled if important buffs are missing.

    So the DEVs have to spread out what was once unique to make 10man esp Heroic viable for a range of compositions.
    While 10m does allow more peeps to see the content, it also has a negative impact on class diversity.

    Which is one reason why peeps here cry for CDs. In a 25man setting that doesn't really matter, b/c you have enough other classes there that can do the burst.

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  14. #74
    Last time I checked a Warlock dies in 1 second the moment you have forced his defensive cooldowns. And those aren't hard to force. Warlocks are by far one of the weakest class in arena right now. I don't know what game you're playing. Mages were strong, they're still quite decent but compared to SP, they aren't as good. That you'd even mention Warlocks being as strong, if not stronger, than Shadow Priest in PvP...
    Yet they have a higher representation at high ratings than sps, how strange. Actually balancing the game based on that and not your subjective opinion seems reasonable.

    You talk about nerfing Phantasm, Fear, Fiend, Dispel etc but those affect Discipline too and Discipline is weak in PvP right now, which we would mean we would have to buff Discipline in other ways while still making them fun to play in PvP and not make them too strong in PvE. Much of their previous toolkit that they had in TBC/WotLK are gone and nerfing utility spells like the ones they have left is basically making Discipline very boring in PvP I think.
    Disc needs buffs either way, and if we get proper survivability against melees nerfing something like phantasm might avoid making us entirely broken against casters. You also conveniently ignored most of the suggestions/examples I made (and those wouldn't nerf disc at all). Blizzard has also already demonstrated that they don't mind separating the abilities effects/numbers between specs.

    Nerfing Silence would make it useless. Making a spell useless is not something Blizzard wants either I think. It is already a lot weaker than CS or SL. Horror is already weak.
    Yep, I'm sure Silence would be totally useless if the cd was increased slightly.

    And FDCL amplifying Mind Spike would buff us in PvP, again...
    Flcd amplifying mind spike but not reducing the cast time would be a pvp nerf in my book, I guess it's hard to read?

    As you see, the things you suggest have impact on many things. You can't just change a bunch of things to justify adding a burst CD. There will be too many variables if you change too much stuff which can 'cause a lot of unwanted side effects.
    Since blizzard already plans to nerf shadow it's hardly adding any unwanted side effects, they can just take it slightly further, and assuming that the correct abilities are chosen for the tweaking it wouldn't affect anything else. It's not rocket science.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-01-30 at 02:10 AM.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Mages aren't really getting nerfed this patch, what makes them strong in CC and burst is all staying - and they have over double the representation above 2200 of shadowpriests. In fact, the numbers are pretty telling in general:

    Shadowpriest representation above 2200: 5.1%
    Mage representation above 2200: 11.9%
    Warlock representation above 2200: 7%
    If you numbers are true (got no clue where you got them from), then it just shows how useless your data is. Anyone who has stepped in to arena and knows something about PvP knows that Shadow Priests are stronger than Warlocks by miles in arena right now and yet they have lower representation in your data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Yet they have a higher representation at high ratings than sps, how strange. Actually balancing the game based on that and not your subjective opinion seems reasonable.
    Source, please. Sure, my opinion is subjective. But when you see Warlocks getting destroyed in seconds in top level games and you hear every top Warlock say their class is weak and when every good Warlock comp has been replaced with a Shadow Priest (RLS - RPS, WLS - WPS, MLS - Godcomp/Shaman.) and when two out of three Shadow Priests end up in top 2 (the third one was playing with a rogue) in recent tournament you really can't deny the fact that Warlocks are weaker. Have you even played at higher ratings or talked to people at higher ratings? Or you just look at data and draw conclusions?


    Disc needs buffs either way, and if we get proper survivability against melees nerfing something like phantasm might avoid making us entirely broken against casters. You also conveniently ignored most of the suggestions/examples I made (and those wouldn't nerf disc at all). Blizzard has also already demonstrated that they don't mind separating the abilities effects/numbers between specs.
    I ignored one example because I am not sure how it would play out. How that translates to most is beyond me. If they separate, that's fine. I don't think they'd do it on the spells you mentioned though.

    Yep, I'm sure Silence would be totally useless if the cd was increased slightly.
    So you want to make one of our only reliable CC weaker only to have our burst stronger?


    Flcd amplifying mind spike but not reducing the cast time would be a pvp nerf in my book, I guess it's hard to read?
    Yeah, I missed that part. But that would make the talent not worth taking in PvP at all because you get locked out of both schools.


    Since blizzard already plans to nerf shadow it's hardly adding any unwanted side effects, they can just take it slightly further, and assuming that the correct abilities are chosen for the tweaking it wouldn't affect anything else. It's not rocket science.
    Who knows. I don't believe Blizzard will change that much to be honest for Shadow. But we'll see. Until we see the changes, we can't say much but I don't agree with changing too many spells that affect both PvE and PvP as those you've mentioned.
    Last edited by Ariadne; 2013-01-30 at 02:38 AM.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Wrong. It's actually the 10man raiding groups that drive the Homogenization forward because depending on Setup your raid can be severely crippled if important buffs are missing.

    So the DEVs have to spread out what was once unique to make 10man esp Heroic viable for a range of compositions.
    While 10m does allow more peeps to see the content, it also has a negative impact on class diversity.

    Which is one reason why peeps here cry for CDs. In a 25man setting that doesn't really matter, b/c you have enough other classes there that can do the burst.
    Wrong. It's actually the lack of success by the developers in giving various class-spec combinations unique traits, and then designing fights that can be won by various combinations of those traits, that makes them take the easier way of spreading things such as buffs to more classes. Well, not really 'actually', but I just couldn't resist making a joke about that 'actually' as if anyone's opinion is fact A good designer would make buffing and similar aspects have true variety, while making the fights such that they could be won in various ways depending on said variety. It's about making the riddle of buffing more complex. Which they don't want to do because it is quite hard. And that is something that they have a habit of doing for quite some time, not just with buffs, but with abilities, talents, attributes, etc. If something is especially complex they just scrap it and go with something generic and easy to tune instead.
    Last edited by Drithien; 2013-01-30 at 02:19 AM.

  17. #77
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Shadow will still be bottom of the pit unless we can exploit ToF. But oh well.. someone has to be down there.
    Yes, there always must be a lowest DPS spec - but it should Never be Shadow. First off, whichever spec is the lowest spec should always be the one getting attention / vigilance so that it doesn't drop too far below the rest (we are low in 5.1, we're dropping really fast in 5.2 due to bad scaling) - that a spec is the lowest by a trivial amount should be permissible - when the lowest spec is lowest by an increasingly large amount - something needs addressing.

    The reason it should never be Shadow that's the lowest DPS spec though, is that Shadow is the only choice for DPS priests - it's a unique position amongst all the classes in the game that we only have a single DPS spec: if Shadow doesn't work, Priests don't DPS.

    By contrast, if a pure DPS spec is the lowest (say, Frost Mages) but Fire and Arcane are competitive - Mages are still great to have in raids. No other class is bound to having one spec working, except Priests - so Shadow should deserve a higher level of vigilance from the developers than any other spec - because falling into the position we're currently in impacts us instantly, where a Mage is only impacted if all three specs suck at the same time (which has never happened to any pure in the game, and even for 2 DPS spec hybrids - has only ever happened simultaneously to Shamans before).

    I should point out that Ret occupies a similar position - but still maintains a marginally higher degree of flexibility than Shadow does - if Shadow fails we can only heal, if Ret fails Rets can fulfill tank or healer roles. So while Ret and Shadow both deserve a degree of hyper-vigilance, Shadow if anything deserves the highest degree of hyper-vigilance from the developers against low DPS.

    Now, if the developers want to come out and say "We're OK with Shadow doing un-competitive DPS on many fights, because we have decided to re-create the 'Support' role, which we are now classifying Shadow as - since it has high HPS while DPS'ing", I'll be overjoyed - I rolled Shadow in TBC to be a mana battery, healer and DPS'r all at the same time With that said, their official policy has been for 3 expansions now that Support specs don't exist and shouldn't exist, and all DPS specs, whether hybrids or pures, should be very close to one another, at least when you average all the fights in a tier. If that's true - Shadow needs some PvE love - it's not acceptable for us to be the lowest DPS spec.
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  18. #78
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    A good designer would make buffing and similar aspects have true variety, while making the fights such that they could be won in various ways depending on said variety. It's about making the riddle of buffing more complex. Which they don't want to do because it is quite hard. And that is something that they have a habit of doing for quite some time, not just with buffs, but with abilities, talents, attributes, etc. If something is especially complex they just scrap it and go with something generic and easy to tune instead.
    Cann you blame them?

    Players complain about a 5% difference in output and think it's unacceptable.
    Also, I think your system won't work in WoW right now.

    Top Guilds would always find cookie cutter setups for their progression, and the uninformed would copy that and cry about imbalance instead of searching for their own tactical approach.

    Maybe you could implement something in a brand new game, but you'd have to steer clear of things like recount, or people will just again minmax and bench suboptimal specs.

    Now, if the developers want to come out and say "We're OK with Shadow doing un-competitive DPS on many fights, because we have decided to re-create the 'Support' role, which we are now classifying Shadow as - since it has high HPS while DPS'ing", I'll be overjoyed - I rolled Shadow in TBC to be a mana battery, healer and DPS'r all at the same time
    Yay, a like minded Individual.

    If that's true - Shadow needs some PvE love
    I never disputed that. I just think a DPS cooldown isn't the right way to go about things. I'd like a slight buff to single target DPS and a nerf of some kind to ToF, so I'm not that dependent on mechanics where I can cheese it's uptime. ._.

    Besides: My Draenei always needs love!
    Last edited by Granyala; 2013-01-30 at 02:31 AM.

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  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Yes, there always must be a lowest DPS spec - but it should Never be Shadow. First off, whichever spec is the lowest spec should always be the one getting attention / vigilance so that it doesn't drop too far below the rest (we are low in 5.1, we're dropping really fast in 5.2 due to bad scaling) - that a spec is the lowest by a trivial amount should be permissible - when the lowest spec is lowest by an increasingly large amount - something needs addressing.

    The reason it should never be Shadow that's the lowest DPS spec though, is that Shadow is the only choice for DPS priests - it's a unique position amongst all the classes in the game that we only have a single DPS spec: if Shadow doesn't work, Priests don't DPS.
    You do realize that by this logic all of the other heal capable classes should all be higher than at least one of the priest heal specs, yes? After all, druids, shamans and pallies can only use the one healing spec and if those don't work, they don't heal.

  20. #80
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    You do realize that by this logic all of the other heal capable classes should all be higher than at least one of the priest heal specs, yes? After all, druids, shamans and pallies can only use the one healing spec and if those don't work, they don't heal.
    You do realize that you can't just compare healers via output meters like you can compare DPS?

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