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  1. #81
    I have burst dps in my pants.

    Please post constructively.
    Last edited by Arlee; 2013-01-30 at 04:40 AM.
    Perfect example of why "community" forums are poisonous to the health of a development team. These developers are wasting hundreds of hours trying to stem the tide of incessant bitchery that would never, ever abate so long as these entitled, unfortunate human beings don't get their way.

  2. #82
    Legendary! Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Starfighter View Post
    I have burst dps in my pants.
    Obviously on a 2hr cooldown. We already knew that. :P

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  3. #83
    Field Marshal Alidie's Avatar
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    To all of you who don't want a DPS CD.

    Okay so you raid 10 man. You're trying to push the boss, everyone is popping their CDs, nuking like a maniac over 15 seconds.
    What do you do, apart from your normal rotation? Please tell me how you burst, how you do just as much dmg as everyone else. oh yeah. you don't. if it's a progression fight - well fuck you we'll take the mage or the lock instead see ya

    I can live with not having a DPS CD - if we're no longer bottom 3 DPS but rather TOP 5 DPS, single target.
    Because, we're totally being forgotten, at the bottom, like we don't count. We're like the new cata frost mages.

    And he says "not every class should have a CD so they don't feel the same" bitch please, I wish I had twitter so I could answer him personally but I'm not a hipster, anyway, then how come every class DO have a CD already - except priests, and how does ONE extra button make the class "same" to anything else? FFS can he stop answering these and get someone who actually work with priest to answer us? gaahh

  4. #84
    Legendary! Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alidie View Post
    To all of you who don't want a DPS CD.

    Okay so you raid 10 man. You're trying to push the boss, everyone is popping their CDs, nuking like a maniac over 15 seconds.
    What do you do, apart from your normal rotation? Please tell me how you burst, how you do just as much dmg as everyone else. oh yeah. you don't. if it's a progression fight - well fuck you we'll take the mage or the lock instead see ya
    Get a Guild that actually cares about ME the player and not the epics?

    I do not believe you when you say that you wipe with perfect encounter execution because you brought a shadow instead of a mage. If you are progressing these fights now, you ain't that cutting edge. Sorry.
    To clarify: World first guilds do extreme class stacking to compensate for being undergeared. My statement is NOT meant as an insult towards you or your guild.

    Which encounter is it that requires so much burst? I'm only at Elegon 25HC now, so I honestly don't know.
    Last edited by Granyala; 2013-01-30 at 02:47 AM.

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  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Cann you blame them?

    Players complain about a 5% difference in output and think it's unacceptable.
    Also, I think your system won't work in WoW right now.

    Top Guilds would always find cookie cutter setups for their progression, and the uninformed would copy that and cry about imbalance instead of searching for their own tactical approach.

    Maybe you could implement something in a brand new game, but you'd have to steer clear of things like recount, or people will just again minmax and bench suboptimal specs.
    To me it's not about blaming them. It's about them trashing concepts instead of working on them. Also not having the proper foresight in changes their decisions can bring.

    10-man raiding for example. It's a difficult riddle to solve, buff and utility-wise. But they did that to themselves! Nobody forced them to do it. If they wanted a smaller raid-size they could have gone with 16-man raiding, and that would be it. Most of their problems would be gone in that matter.

    Then there are concepts such as dot-clipping. It harmed no one. It just added some depth to the gameplay of characters with dots. But it got scraped for next to no reason. If someone was interested in maximizing his dps output he would pay attention to clipping, if not, whatever, it was not that big a difference anyway.

    Or talents. Instead of making the older system offer choice, they just scrapped it and implemented a much smaller and simpler one. And still there is no choice as well in almost any tier, since min-maxing still applies. The result is where there were 30 talent trees now there are 11. No hybrid builds anymore, not even for fun, because some people like to play for fun, and someone stole my Smite. And still the min-maxing problem has not been solved. actually now changing glyphs almost every fight is part of min-maxing.

    As I said, I don't blame them. But I do wish they spent more effort into making the game more varied and complex, while allowing it its sand-box feel instead of taking all those riddles away. Most were never that difficult, but they were fun for people that like to try things around. Not everything is about min-maxing in this game. Of course the mentality of the player-base has to change as well. Trying to immitate high-performance players while having next to no clue why they do the things that they do is a problem. But that can also be attempted to be solved if they introduce an actual beginner's guide and additional tools to interest people in learning how to play.
    Last edited by Drithien; 2013-01-30 at 02:50 AM.

  6. #86
    Legendary! Granyala's Avatar
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    Then there are concepts such as dot-clipping. It harmed no one. It just added some depth to the gameplay of characters with dots. But it got scraped for next to no reason. If someone was interested in maximizing his dps output he would pay attention to clipping, if not, whatever, it was not that big a difference anyway.
    DoT clipping caused problems with channeled spells on the server side due to macro spamming, if I'm not mistaken that was the main reason it was removed.

    As I said, I don't blame them. But I do wish they spent more effort into making the game more varied and complex, while allowing it its sand-box feel instead of taking all those riddles away. Most were never that difficult, but they were fun for people that like to try things around.
    I play since early BC. There were no riddles. Just boring passive clutter that showed everyone what a retard you were If you didn't pick it. They just closed these gaps, so newbies couldn't fall into them, because getting flamed by the community was the only result it ever produced.

    Yeah, missing holy damage spells really is weird to me. But I only used them on those immune mobs in sunwell anyway, so no big deal. ^^

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  7. #87
    Field Marshal Alidie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Get a Guild that actually cares about ME the player and not the epics?

    I do not believe you when you say that you wipe with perfect encounter execution because you brought a shadow instead of a mage. If you are progressing these fights now, you ain't that cutting edge. Sorry.

    Which encounter is it that requires so much burst? I'm only at Elegon 25HC now, so I honestly don't know.
    I didn't say it was me, its just an example.

    Did ambershaper hc tonight, killed it, but everyone kept asking every wipe: "can you do more dmg in the burn phase?" (so p3 would be easier with boss having less hp duh)
    that's just awful. I were millions of dmg away from the 2nd "worst" dps in the burn phase, and the rest of them are very close to each other. And I could do nothing. SF. DP. MB.
    It's a 12 second window where you pop everything you have and just burst like a maniac, which is crucial because if you get to p3 it should be a kill because the boss would be so low, kinda.

    We don't bench anyone or anything but I felt very unwanted at that fight, if they'd found a good mage/lock pug (we pugged 2 dks) and they wanted to make the fight easier, they'd easily bench me for it. :<

    I probably shouldn't even rant so much about this because I know I won't reroll anyway, guess I just gotta vent sometime he he. if only I didn't sound like a total bitch.

  8. #88
    Source, please. Sure, my opinion is subjective. But when you see Warlocks getting destroyed in seconds in top level games and you hear every top Warlock say their class is weak and when every good Warlock comp has been replaced with a Shadow Priest (RLS - RPS, WLS - WPS, MLS - Godcomp/Shaman.) and when two out of three Shadow Priests end up in top 2 (the third one was playing with a rogue) in recent tournament you really can't deny the fact that Warlocks are weaker. Have you even played at higher ratings or talked to people at higher ratings? Or you just look at data and draw conclusions?
    I simply checked the top teams in every bg some time ago, I guess Yvalle has a more recent source. Higher representation doesn't necessarily mean that the spec is stronger (even if it's a good indication), but if sp's were completely broken we'd see way more of them in the top teams. I've played several different classes at a high level back in tbc/wotlk, not a fan of the way pvp has developed since so I haven't bothered much with it in mop (and I didn't play during cata) but I've played/talked/watched enough to get a decent understanding of it now as well.

    I ignored one example because I am not sure how it would play out. How that translates to most is beyond me. If they separate, that's fine. I don't think they'd do it on the spells you mentioned though.
    You ignored several examples, it's quite obvious that it'd be easy to make sps overall balanced, doing this without making them too strong against certain setups and too weak against others might be a bit more troublesome but it's certainly doable.

    So you want to make one of our only reliable CC weaker only to have our burst stronger?
    I feel that sp's are too strong vs most casters right now, to me the main reason for this is phantasm but silence could be tweaked to affect this as well. Nerfing these tools slightly, giving us some better way to deal with melee (no orbs on horror, possibly weaker actual cc while keeping the disarm) could be some good adjustments and if done properly they'll end up in an overall nerf. A 20-30 second moderate (& dispellable) damage buff (think a weaker but longer duration wings, not recklessness v2) won't make our burst that scary, especially considering the changes to DP next patch.

    Yeah, I missed that part. But that would make the talent not worth taking in PvP at all because you get locked out of both schools.
    The talent trees are hardly designed to have every talent viable in both pvp and pve right now, an example is the new insanity which is a decent way to buff shadow pve while not affecting pvp (even if it's just a glorified mind flay).

    Who knows. I don't believe Blizzard will change that much to be honest for Shadow. But we'll see. Until we see the changes, we can't say much but I don't agree with changing too many spells that affect both PvE and PvP as those you've mentioned.
    I don't think they'll do any major changes either, I'm just saying that shadow will be one of if not the weakest pve dps specs in 5.2 if they don't change anything, and both our low consistent damage and our lack of burst are reasons for this.

  9. #89
    Legendary! Granyala's Avatar
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    Yeah I can understand how bad it feels if the others keep pressuring you. But they have to understand that it's unique to shadow to not be a good burster.
    W/O 4p T13 we had the same problem on Spine. Our damage royally sucked.

    We'll have to live with that on certain fights.

    if only I didn't sound like a total bitch.
    Well.. you're a Sin'dorei. So you have the permission to sound bitchy. Just act as if you were RPing.

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  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I play since early BC. There were no riddles. Just boring passive clutter that showed everyone what a retard you were If you didn't pick it. They just closed these gaps, so newbies couldn't fall into them, because getting flamed by the community was the only result it ever produced.

    Yeah, missing holy damage spells really is weird to me. But I only used them on those immune mobs in sunwell anyway, so no big deal. ^^
    I saw them as a nice addition. Each time I gained a level I had a point to spend, whether it was on a new ability or a small increase in crit rating, it was a nice bonus to levelling. Also, when levelling I never thought I had to min-max, so I just picked weird talents, and I know lots of people did if they didn't care about getting to whatever the cap was at the time asap. As for the bad quality, yeah, it existed, but that was something they could have fixed, not scrapped. Have some options that really are a matter of choice -or at least as much as the current ones are-, while the rest are small buffs here and there. It felt that the talent system was more connected to levelling, making your character stronger, instead of being the end-game feature it feels like it is right now.

    And I don't understand why they took away Smite and Holy Fire, or the heals. Maybe PVP. But in that case it was a bad choice imo. They could just make the unavailable in arenas. I miss my Smite so much (yeah, I used it while doing dailies, etc )...

  11. #91
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    You do realize that by this logic all of the other heal capable classes should all be higher than at least one of the priest heal specs, yes? After all, druids, shamans and pallies can only use the one healing spec and if those don't work, they don't heal.
    No - it's not a fair comparison - healer compositions cannot really stack priests in the event that the rest of the healing specs aren't comparable. There are only a very few healer spots in the raid, and only a handful of healer specs - but well over half the raid is usually DPS, and well over half the specs in the game are DPS specs. Priest healers also do face a similar problem (and we're seeing it right now actually) to Shadow, in that - precisely because they are unique in having 2 healing specs - Ghostcrawler seems to think its permissible for Holy to lag behind all the other specs, because Disc is stronger. Just this morning:

    Ghostcrawler: "Holy posts bad numbers because there are 5-10X as many priests playing Disc (and beating other healers)"

    For him, it's ok for Holy to post bad numbers - because all the good priests in the world are currently specced Disc - none of them have ever done a fight as Holy - and therefore the true capability of Holy is unknown because it is unmeasured. If only Disc were not so well represented, Holy would surely rise in representation - and maybe we could then see whether the problem is with Holy or just with the playerbase all being Disc right now.

    Because there are so many DPS specs and raid spots, it's permissible and even expected that one of them would be the lowest - and even permissible for some of them to be borderline non-functional at any given time. Because Healer specs all only have one spec, all of them deserve a high degree of vigilance and must never fall too far behind the competitive average lest they instantly be rendered useless (like Shadow and Ret) - Except Healy Priests - who have two specs, and therefore are permitted by Ghostcrawler for say, Holy to suck, if Disc is doing well.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 03:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    You do realize that you can't just compare healers via output meters like you can compare DPS?
    Also this
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2013-01-30 at 03:10 AM.
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  12. #92
    For about the thousandth time, Blizzard absolutely DOES NOT balance burst DPS. They balance your overall DPS and burst or no burst is just part of class diversity. Like it or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
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    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  13. #93
    Legendary! Granyala's Avatar
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    Each time I gained a level I had a point to spend, whether it was on a new ability or a small increase in crit rating, it was a nice bonus to levelling.
    I always way annoyed by it, b/c lets be honest: You didn't feel 1% crit or 2% damage. Different strokes I guess ^^
    But that's the point: Once max level, you spend your points cookie cutter ONCE maybe twice every X-Pac cycle. They could just as well have removed the talents entirely. Didn't make a difference. Now, I constantly get little riddles and stuff to think about to figure out which talent works best for the tactics employed by my raid.

    And I don't understand why they took away Smite and Holy Fire, or the heals. Maybe PVP. But in that case it was a bad choice imo. They could just make the unavailable in arenas. I miss my Smite so much (yeah, I used it while doing dailies, etc )...
    Honestly? I think they just wanted to clean up the spell books a bit. AoE healing & Dispels was probably a balance thing. Personally I'm most annoyed about the dispel changes. I loved to snipe dispels from the healers. Now I can only throw mass dispels... :/

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  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    I simply checked the top teams in every bg some time ago, I guess Yvalle has a more recent source. Higher representation doesn't necessarily mean that the spec is stronger (even if it's a good indication), but if sp's were completely broken we'd see way more of them in the top teams.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/aren...ge-saccage/3v3

    Around 14 SPs, 3 Warlocks (two of the teams are just the Warlocks in it and we have to remember that Demo was very popular for a while before nerfs)

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/aren...irbelsturm/3v3

    Around 13 SPs, 3 Warlocks

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/arena/bloodlust/3v3

    Around 6 SPs, 3 Warlocks but lots of abandoned teams on this BG.

    And you say we would see more Shadow Priest in top teams if they were broken. Mention one top team that has had a Warlock (can't think of any Warlock that has held rank 1 this season on the more competitive BGs) while on BG9, Zaddo held rank 1 for quite a while and dominated King of the Hill Tournament. It was overtaken by Talbadar's team and they are currently rank 1. On Cyclone the rank 1 is Raiku's team and they played before Mage nerfs. The rank 2 on Cyclone has Shadow Priest. On Rampage EU, the rank 1 has Shadow Priest. On Misery the rank 1 has Shadow Priest. I just listed probably the top 4 most competitive BGs out there. So we are seeing Shadow Priest in the top in every top BG out there. Can't say the same for Warlocks.

    And as I said, two of the top three teams in Yaspresents tournament had a Shadow Priest.

    You ignored several examples, it's quite obvious that it'd be easy to make sps overall balanced, doing this without making them too strong against certain setups and too weak against others might be a bit more troublesome but it's certainly doable.
    Please do tell what examples I ignored. I ignored the cast time on DP/VT things and mana cost. The 1-2 min CD cooldown was already adressed in my previous post (Archangel kind of spell). I still don't know how that translates to "most of".


    I feel that sp's are too strong vs most casters right now, to me the main reason for this is phantasm but silence could be tweaked to affect this as well. Nerfing these tools slightly, giving us some better way to deal with melee (no orbs on horror, possibly weaker actual cc while keeping the disarm) could be some good adjustments and if done properly they'll end up in an overall nerf. A 20-30 second moderate (& dispellable) damage buff (think a weaker but longer duration wings, not recklessness v2) won't make our burst that scary, especially considering the changes to DP next patch.
    We are very strong against casters. I agree with that we should become stronger vs melee and nerf our strength against caster. Not 100% hwo the suggestions you've made would play out though. I am also not sure if the DP nerf will make it that much weaker in PvP. The thing is, you always CC the healer/dispeller when you burst with DP. I think most of DPs damage will still go through in PvP but maybe it will give people more time to react and pop cooldowns.


    The talent trees are hardly designed to have every talent viable in both pvp and pve right now, an example is the new insanity which is a decent way to buff shadow pve while not affecting pvp (even if it's just a glorified mind flay).
    Sure, but FDCL would still become useless in PvP and it is basically the go-to talent right now in PvP.

    I don't think they'll do any major changes either, I'm just saying that shadow will be one of if not the weakest pve dps specs in 5.2 if they don't change anything, and both our low consistent damage and our lack of burst are reasons for this
    I mainly PvE, I also hate the current state of Shadow in PvE but even though I want us to become stronger I just don't see it happening with our current state in PvP. I believe Blizzard is very cautious with buffing us in PvE simply because of our state in PvP (which has also been indicated by GC in a tweet).
    Last edited by Ariadne; 2013-02-02 at 02:27 AM.

  15. #95
    I lol a bit when i think of the guy saying i was clueless because like 2 months ago i was asking on buff on our idiotic filler at the cost of an already stupidly mandatory talent in multi target and pvp scenarios.

    If they want us to be a bit less sucky against melee and give some kind of viability on MF:I in arena, the insanity flay MUST BE on a different magic school and rising CD on our disarm but removing the orb cost.

    Could you imagine? A rogue or a DK or EVEN A WARRIOR on you and...wait for it...you could cast! YOU COULD EVEN USE A CC!

    Wouldn't it be beautiful?

  16. #96
    Why is this tweet gaining all the discussion now? I posted it like four weeks ago...
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  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Why is this tweet gaining all the discussion now? I posted it like four weeks ago...
    Because it comes from the horse his mouth

  18. #98
    Do you people honestly think that adding a +dmg% CD will solve all of our problems in PvE? Do you people honestly think this?

    -Weak scaling of stats
    -weak scaling during lust/hero
    -no increased resource regeneration that scales with gear (see first point).
    -DPS dropping significantly when movement is involved.
    -two talents we will never use, PI and SWI, on live
    -Weak single target dps, see above reasons as to why

    I don't see how adding a DPS cd would solve any of those. I really wish people would stop saying that we need a dps cd. If you want it that badly, you have PI. Stop complaining about something that isn't our biggest concern right now.

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  19. #99
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    I want a button that says:

    Archangel - 90 second cooldown, 30 second duration, instant cast, gives you pretty purple wings.

    It could be a minor glyph. Alternately they could just give us wings when Shadowfiend/Mindbender are active. I think it's not so much about the lack of a cooldown specifically that annoys people - so much as the 'feeling' that we never become stronger or weaker than at any other point during the fight (since MB/SF are disembodied from us). Or they could do both.

    Mind Blast - cooldown reduced by haste rating, critical hits award a second orb.

    You can now have up to 5 Shadow Orbs at a time, abilities consume a maximum of 3.

    Psychic Horror - 10 second disarm, 60 second cooldown, no Shadow Orb cost (or 1 shadow orb cost, but three is way too high)

    Power Infusion - in addition to the on-use effect, awards 5% passive haste.

    Shadow Word: Insanity - redesign it again, they obviously didn't intend us to spam 1 orb DP's just to maintain the MFI buff.
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  20. #100
    Not a fan of the crits awarding a second orb, but Mind Blast does need haste scaling, and badly.

    The passive haste on power infusion is an interesting idea, one I kind of like (but aren't those passives usually disabled when the skill's on cooldown, thus we wouldn't actually see 5% haste all that often?). No idea on what they're doing with Insanity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Drye
    I don't see how adding a DPS cd would solve any of those. I really wish people would stop saying that we need a dps cd. If you want it that badly, you have PI. Stop complaining about something that isn't our biggest concern right now.
    Pretty much this. Rather them fix the low DPS problem instead of giving us the Ret treatment (Blow everything, you MIGHT be able to kill something, then you keep hitting like a wet noodle while everything else is on cooldown). Shadow already has two burst cooldowns. Mindbender/Shadowfiend, and Power Infusion should you choose to spec it. It doesn't need a third, not before other things are fixed.
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