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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by eErike View Post
    Trinkets + DP and Mindbender (or Shadow Fiend) is good enough for any burst phase imo.
    no , it isnt. Hence why every single other class in the game has an actual "cooldown" they can use during a burst phase to increase dps.

    What your describing is good for pvp burst. It is not enough for a PVE situation and they damn well know it, and are just too lazy to fix the problem.
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  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by jonish View Post
    no , it isnt. Hence why every single other class in the game has an actual "cooldown" they can use during a burst phase to increase dps.

    What your describing is good for pvp burst. It is not enough for a PVE situation and they damn well know it, and are just too lazy to fix the problem.
    Spec Power Infusion. Tada. This really shouldn't be the top concern for a Shadow Priest, there are much more pressing issues.
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  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    For about the thousandth time, Blizzard absolutely DOES NOT balance burst DPS. They balance your overall DPS and burst or no burst is just part of class diversity. Like it or not.

    that would be a fantastic point if shadow was actually balanced to other classes in dps, but it isnt. It is so far behind on single target it is beyond argument at this point. Denial of shadow needing severe fundemental changes to the way it plays and increases to its dps output just makes you sound like you have no clue whats going on.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 06:09 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Spec Power Infusion. Tada. This really shouldn't be the top concern for a Shadow Priest, there are much more pressing issues.
    /facepalm



    and it isnt the "top" concern, it is just in the myriad of concerns we currently have that need to be addressed, and this is one that should have been addressed before MOP was ever released, and wasnt.
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  4. #104
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    The passive haste on power infusion is an interesting idea, one I kind of like [size=1](but aren't those passives usually disabled when the skill's on cooldown, thus we wouldn't actually see 5% haste all that often?)
    The example I was thinking of was:

    Ancestral Swiftness

    It's not necessary to have the ability disabled when on cooldown unless it's too strong if having both the passive and active at the same time is too good - which wouldn't be the case for Power Infusion vs. ToF. vs DI. Even with 5% passive haste there are still plenty of fights where ToF and DI will be better, it just makes it an interesting choice.
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  5. #105
    PI doesn't need a passive unless it's something that significantly changes how our spells work to give us more burst with short term haste - like having a passive that has our mindblast cooldown scale with haste.

    the problem is that in our current (or PTR projected) incarnation, it would be impossible to bring a shadowpriest to any fight which involves one or more hard mid-fight bursts on 10 man, or more than the token dispelbot shadowpriest on 25. our burst dps is just too low. we're already close to that point in that you already almost have to use extra players on sha platforms in case spriests get cackled.
    Last edited by snaxattax; 2013-01-30 at 07:08 AM.

  6. #106
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    And you say we would see more Shadow Priest in top teams if they were broken. Mention one top team that has had a Warlock (can't think of any Warlock that has held rank 1 this season on the more competitive BGs) while on BG9, Zaddo held rank 1 for quite a while and dominated King of the Hill Tournament. It was overtaken by Talbadar's team and they are currently rank 1. On Cyclone the rank 1 is Raiku's team and they played before Mage nerfs. The rank 2 on Cyclone has Shadow Priest. On Rampage EU, the rank 1 has Shadow Priest. On Misery the rank 1 has Shadow Priest. I just listed probably the top 4 most competitive BGs out there. So we are seeing Shadow Priest in the top in every top BG out there. Can't say the same for Warlocks.

    And as I said, two of the top three teams in Yaspresents tournament had a Shadow Priest.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but all of those teams have Frost Mages and Resto specs on them as well - nobody is denying the synergy and power of Shatterplay / God Comp this season - but it is getting nerfed next season, while Warlocks are getting buffed.

    The numbers I posted before I realize now were for all arena brackets, but here is for 3v3 (warlocks are stronger in 5v5 and RBGs), all numbers are for 2200+ representation, which is what I consider the cutoff for serious PvP:
    Mages - 10.2%
    Warlocks - 4.4%
    Shadowpriests - 6%

    http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-3-0-0.html

    So compared to the overall numbers, Shadow is better represented than Warlocks in 3v3 right now - but because warlocks are much better represented in RBGs and 5v5, they are overall better represented than Priests.

    Excluding Asia, because Asia is flooded with rank 1 locks right now who win-traded their way to the top (why they all used locks to do it, I don't know). The following Warlocks are rank 1 in EU and NA (or have been this season, rank 1 slides around all the time depending on who is having a good week) in 3v3:
    Slipnslide
    Drlocktopus
    Crazy Cyrillic Letters
    Dotalol
    Limity
    Blukstack
    Xennnum


    Are warlocks having as good a time as mages this season? No. As good as spriests? In 3v3, marginally not as well - but overall warlocks are doing better (mostly because of RBGs). Are warlocks rank 1 competitive in 3v3 this season? Very much so - and more importantly - next season they will be even better.



    We are very strong against casters. I agree with that we should become stronger vs melee and nerf our strength against caster. Not 100% hwo the suggestions you've made would play out though. I am also not sure if the DP nerf will make it that much weaker in PvP. The thing is, you always CC the healer/dispeller when you burst with DP. I think most of DPs damage will still go through in PvP but maybe it will give people more time to react and pop cooldowns.
    Our weakness to melee is because of Psychic Horror getting a Shadow Orb cost - that was pretty devastating for Shadow PvP. Our strength versus casters was because of the additions of/to both Phantasm and Spectral Guise - both of which are anti-caster tools that have little or no effect against melee that we gained in 5.0. Personally the balancing I would like to see would be:

    Psychic Horror - Disarms the target for 10 seconds, 60 second cooldown, no Shadow Orb cost.
    Silence - Silences the caster for 5 seconds, 60 second cooldown, no Shadow Orb cost.

    That brings Psychic Horror back into use this season (because right now its pretty much always the wrong call to use Psychic Horror over Devouring Plague), and that also nerfs our anti-caster array without having to nerf or remove Phantasm and Spectral Guise - which are otherwise nice additions - spare that they give us a little too many ways to shutdown opponent casters. It also normalizes our silence cooldown with Strangulate (in 5.2, which will also be reduced to 60 seconds from 120 seconds).

    I mainly PvE, I also hate the current state of Shadow in PvE but even though I want us to become stronger I just don't see it happening with our current state in PvP. I believe Blizzard is very cautious with buffing us in PvE simply because of our state in PvP (which has also been indicated by GC in a tweet).
    I think our job as a community here, is to come up with an array of possible solutions that would address our PvE shortcomings without buffing our PvP utility any further. If we can give GC enough available good options, maybe he will see one he likes and agrees with. I agree they don't want to buff our PvE for fear of buffing our PvP - but they are nerfing our PvP synergy a good deal in 5.2, hopefully they can now consider a PvE buff: we should all work together to find one they like
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2013-01-30 at 07:41 AM.
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  7. #107
    Shadow already has two burst cooldowns. Mindbender/Shadowfiend, and Power Infusion should you choose to spec it. It doesn't need a third, not before other things are fixed.
    pets do low damage and dont scale with +% damage for player. PI only increase spell cast speed, no haste for dots no pets attack speed. and i must spend 2 talents for that?

  8. #108
    Yeah i wish shadowpriests did have an actual burst CD that didnt require us speccing for it

  9. #109
    PI affects dots.... Its just a cd that blows. Because ultimately haste is not good(none of our secondary stats are actually of any good), during BL we get 30% haste, yet we do no real extra damage because the bulk of our dps is centered around DP, which sux, because our ratio DP/minute will never change. I am starting to hate this DP spell... Its like telling a rogue you can only use a finisher every 25 seconds...

    Blizz seem to be focused on priest atm, even if the discussion is 50% disc 40% holy and 10% sp... But they are also saying some bullshitz like we are fine, and are at a good place, we might be at some places, but single target dps is an urgent matter. Scaling will start to affect us massively next tier, yet we see more changes for mage and locks that just need a freaking nerfbat...

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Power Infusion - in addition to the on-use effect, awards 5% passive haste.
    Or by god, atleast let it stack with BL. Right now it's the onlt haste cd that dosent do so..:/

  11. #111
    PI affects dots
    My bad. My math is own me. Anyways pi doesnt stuck with bl/hero and sometimes doesnt allow bl\hero applied. Give us pi by deaflt and talent tree buff (like http://www.wowhead.com/spell=53376)
    Last edited by Aleaa; 2013-01-30 at 11:25 AM.

  12. #112
    Power Infusion * should work differently for holy/disc and in a different way for shadow.

    For instance shadow: +20% damage and +20% haste. That’s all. Or +20% damage and plus 10% crit, or whatever. The passive 5% haste also would be nice.

    Some CDs I just came up past last 10 minutes (I won’t bother explaining while we need at least one, others covered it):

    • Darkness Binding – merges all dots on the target into one powerful dot ( Mage Style - Insanity replacement )
    • Shadowy Friends – your critical strike is increased by 20% for 15 secs. During that time the shadow Apparitions that spawn last for 30 sec. (need to work around the new Tier 15 bonuses)
    • From Darkness comes Power – Transforms you into being of pure shadow. Damage taken reduced further by 15%. Shadow spells deal 15% more damage for the duration. Mind Blast now generates two shadow orbs and its CD is reduced by haste. Devouring Plague spreads SW:P on nearby targets. Lasts 30 secs.
    • Sunrise – All your shadow spells cause Sunrise for 10 secs – a holy damage based DOT that deals x damage every time it ticks and stacks indefinitely. The DOT lasts for 15 secs.
    • Devourer - Creates a copy of yourself that last for 20 secs. The copy mirrors your spells and deals damage equal to 20% of your spellpower. After 20 secs the Devourer explodes, dealing damage equal 30% of the damage it dealt.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    So compared to the overall numbers, Shadow is better represented than Warlocks in 3v3 right now - but because warlocks are much better represented in RBGs and 5v5, they are overall better represented than Priests.

    Excluding Asia, because Asia is flooded with rank 1 locks right now who win-traded their way to the top (why they all used locks to do it, I don't know). The following Warlocks are rank 1 in EU and NA (or have been this season, rank 1 slides around all the time depending on who is having a good week) in 3v3:

    Are warlocks having as good a time as mages this season? No. As good as spriests? In 3v3, marginally not as well - but overall warlocks are doing better (mostly because of RBGs). Are warlocks rank 1 competitive in 3v3 this season? Very much so - and more importantly - next season they will be even better.
    I think you misunderstood what I meant by competitive BG and top team. For example, Blukstack's team had no chance at all in the Yaspresents tournament. They got rolled. You linked a lot of dead BGs and we all know Russians are famous for their wintrading in Europe (maybe people from US don't know, even though there has been post on AJ about it).

    The BGs I linked are where the best players are at and you don't see Warlocks at the top there. And if you look at all the comps Warlocks are viable with you can see that it can be replaced by a Shadow Priest and the comp becomes better, as I wrote in my previous post. WLS (arguably the strongest Warlock comp right now) and MLS are good examples.

    That you say Shadow Priest are marginally better than Warlocks when every good Warlock comp is basically better with a Shadow Priest is just baffling.

    And I don't even know why you bother looking at RBGs, it's full of win traders this season. Basically every other game you face a win trading team when you're playing at around 2.2-2.4k rating. Blizzard doesn't care that much about 5v5 balance and I dont' think many arena players do either.

    I also checked most successful comps on your site: http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-0-0-0.html. Quite telling.

    That brings Psychic Horror back into use this season (because right now its pretty much always the wrong call to use Psychic Horror over Devouring Plague), and that also nerfs our anti-caster array without having to nerf or remove Phantasm and Spectral Guise - which are otherwise nice additions - spare that they give us a little too many ways to shutdown opponent casters. It also normalizes our silence cooldown with Strangulate (in 5.2, which will also be reduced to 60 seconds from 120 seconds).
    I feel Psychic Horror can be good at some situations. I see Talbadar use it plenty and I use it often to keep chain CC on healer after I used my 3 orb DP on the one we are bursting.

    I think our job as a community here, is to come up with an array of possible solutions that would address our PvE shortcomings without buffing our PvP utility any further. If we can give GC enough available good options, maybe he will see one he likes and agrees with. I agree they don't want to buff our PvE for fear of buffing our PvP - but they are nerfing our PvP synergy a good deal in 5.2, hopefully they can now consider a PvE buff: we should all work together to find one they like
    Yeah, but when people say it is easy to do it and then followed by suggestions that would affect so much more spells and would require 10 or more tweaks to other spells and when people say Shadow Priest isn't one of the strongest classes in PvP right now it makes me lose faith in the Shadow Priest community.
    Last edited by Ariadne; 2013-01-30 at 03:37 PM.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerofpope View Post
    Wow. If you're gonna act like you know what you're talking about, then please do so, or at least don't question my intelligence. Insanity? Removes dots.
    New insanity doesn't though?
    And if you're going to post things without any explanation you're going to be misinterpreted - given new insanity doesn't strip dots, and even old insanity only strips sw, if you say strips dots the natural assumption is you're talking about MS.

  15. #115
    Benched my Spriest due to the almost complete reliance on procs.
    When my "burn phase" capability relies on saving orbs and hoping SF is ready, something is f**king wrong.

    Quite odd how other casters can have very decent damage and still have plenty of CDs for such occasions, but Spriest can't.
    Last edited by MasterHamster; 2013-01-30 at 12:40 PM.
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  16. #116
    Not sure why people are saying the DP change is a nerf to PvE burst. Could argue it's not the buff we need, but it certainly isn't a nerf to any kind of damage, either burst or sustained.

    Instead of doing damage in a global plus 6 seconds, it will now do more damage over 6 seconds. Whichever way you look at it, 6 seconds is a good window to burst. I don't know many other classes who's "burst" is all concentrated around one global.

    Kinda besides the real issue with Spriest dps, but i don't see any reason to be complaining about a "burst nerf" is all...
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  17. #117
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    Archangel - 90 second cooldown, 30 second duration, instant cast, gives you pretty purple wings.

    It could be a minor glyph. Alternately they could just give us wings when Shadowfiend/Mindbender are active.
    Glyph of Dark Archangel
    Gives you pretty wings everytime you cast DP. ^_^

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  18. #118
    Stood in the Fire Drfireburns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferin View Post
    New insanity doesn't though?
    And if you're going to post things without any explanation you're going to be misinterpreted - given new insanity doesn't strip dots, and even old insanity only strips sw, if you say strips dots the natural assumption is you're talking about MS.

    Yes, I'm speaking of old Insanity. I didn't think I needed to explain every little thing when 99% of the SPriest users know what's being talked about here.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Pretty much this. Rather them fix the low DPS problem instead of giving us the Ret treatment (Blow everything, you MIGHT be able to kill something, then you keep hitting like a wet noodle while everything else is on cooldown). Shadow already has two burst cooldowns. Mindbender/Shadowfiend, and Power Infusion should you choose to spec it. It doesn't need a third, not before other things are fixed.
    Yupp. People just dont know what they are talking about and just saying something because they want to sit at the big kids table, regardless if its actually going to help the community. I personally would love to have a dps cd, I enjoy the mechanics of it. Do I think we need one? No. Will it solve our problems? No. If people actually cared about making shadow a fun and viable spec, you need focus on a real way to improve shadow. You need to look at our faults and try to come up with ideas that will change those problems. Some of our main problems, the ones I listed on page 5, are some of the problems we really need to focus on. If the community continues to talk about not having a burst cd, it won't solve anything and we will stay where we are. Once our more pressing concerns/problems felt with and we no longer have them, then we can talk about a dps cd. But for now, complaining about something that isn't our biggest concern, or even one in general, is only hurting yourself and the community from having a fine and effcient working machine.
    Last edited by Drye; 2013-01-30 at 04:44 PM.

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  20. #120
    but the thing is we need a slight buff to our sustained dps so we can skip the scenario that we need this dps cd. i could go with not having one if i was putting out enough single target dps. could line up a dp3 + MB + halo + fiend/bender for a burst phase. it could give me enough burst, but i'd rest assured knowing that my sustained dps would compensate for the rest of the burn phase and beyond after that spike i provide.

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