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  1. #161
    Field Marshal Alidie's Avatar
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    Whoever say PI is a "good" CD.

    Read the spell.

    Spell casting speed.
    Not haste.
    Casting speed.
    Aka.. doesn't affect dots, only VT CASTING SPEED.

    = it's garbage.

    So please tell me why anyone with a brain would choose this over the 2 obviously superior talents in that tier that gives us better dmg overall?

    PI should be, increase haste and spellpower, and ofc we need to benefit better from the haste along with other stats aswell, but at least with extra spellpower we'd hit much harder so it would be kind of a burst cooldown.
    Last edited by Alidie; 2013-01-31 at 01:26 PM.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Moshic View Post
    I bet GC plays a warlock and ordered his teams to design him his own questline and buff his e-numbers even more than they already are?
    I think thats it!

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by stiglet View Post
    [...]
    Edited to say so i'm wrong, it's actually Chaos Bolt I was thinking of and instead of not being able to crit it always crits. But the idea is generally the same.
    CB instead increasing the crit's damage was a change done to make DS affect CB. In early iterations of the destruction spec in MoP beta, DS did not affect CB, which meant using the destro signature spell wasn't viable during usage of the warlock's main burst CD.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Alidie View Post
    Whoever say PI is a "good" CD.

    Read the spell.

    Spell casting speed.
    Not haste.
    Casting speed.
    Aka.. doesn't affect dots, only VT CASTING SPEED.

    = it's garbage.

    So please tell me why anyone with a brain would choose this over the 2 obviously superior talents in that tier that gives us better dmg overall?

    PI should be, increase haste and spellpower, and ofc we need to benefit better from the haste along with other stats aswell, but at least with extra spellpower we'd hit much harder so it would be kind of a burst cooldown.
    It does affect dot's.
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  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peacemaker65 View Post
    Why does everyone have to be burst? The diversity is waning.
    Cata Warlocks say high.

    No burst = less raid utility. Warlocks had virtually no burst in Cata, which meant that they couldn't be used to break facerage, quickly break fiery grip or provide useful burst on burning tendons, etc, etc, etc.

    I agree that not every class needs to be designed around burst, but every class needs a mechanic to dump resources and at least be capable of burst.
    A living Warlock = a dead everyone else

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    CB instead increasing the crit's damage was a change done to make DS affect CB. In early iterations of the destruction spec in MoP beta, DS did not affect CB, which meant using the destro signature spell wasn't viable during usage of the warlock's main burst CD.
    Yep, it's a very similar problem with Orbs. CB doesn't scale with crit without that crit bonus in the same way our orb generation / DP doesn't scale with haste very well at all. The fix would be a neat little way to add a little more dps and scaling.
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  7. #167
    Field Marshal Alidie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stiglet View Post
    It does affect dot's.
    How does spell casting speed affect dots?
    Even so, it doesn't make anything hit harder which makes it useless.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Alidie View Post
    How does spell casting speed affect dots?
    Even so, it doesn't make anything hit harder which makes it useless.
    The tooltip says casting speed, but it actually gives us spell haste.

    You are correct, it doesn't make anything "hit harder". Infact, same is said of any amount of haste. So please tell me, why do Priests favour haste at all? Think about what you're saying.
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  9. #169
    Field Marshal Alidie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stiglet View Post
    The tooltip says casting speed, but it actually gives us spell haste.

    You are correct, it doesn't make anything "hit harder". Infact, same is said of any amount of haste. So please tell me, why do Priests favour haste at all? Think about what you're saying.
    because we only want it for the extra dot ticks (and we can't get haste for yet another tick) , which isn't the problem, haste (over 8085) won't help our overall dmg if we don't have anything that hits hard and is spammable.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Alidie View Post
    because we only want it for the extra dot ticks (and we can't get haste for yet another tick) , which isn't the problem, haste (over 8085) won't help our overall dmg if we don't have anything that hits hard and is spammable.
    You are wrong in your understanding of how haste affects dots, but even disregarding that fact, using PI will give you extra ticks of every dot. By your own logic, that is a dps increase.

    This is getting slightly off topic....
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  11. #171
    Field Marshal Alidie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stiglet View Post
    You are wrong in your understanding of how haste affects dots, but even disregarding that fact, using PI will give you extra ticks of every dot. By your own logic, that is a dps increase.

    This is getting slightly off topic....
    Well it does regard the topic "burst cd".

    What I mean is, by getting an extra tick on our dots, what will that give us, one extra GCD to spend on mindflay? I'm not very good with math and numbers and it maybe sounds like I'm trying to prove something (saying i'm right?) but what I really try to say is, well, ask how it affect our dmg and in what way. eh. just trying to understand how exactly PI would increase our dmg to count as a proper CD (well, its still not better than the 2 other talents but if we pretend it is, how toes it affect our dmg, in what way?)

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Alidie View Post
    Well it does regard the topic "burst cd".

    What I mean is, by getting an extra tick on our dots, what will that give us, one extra GCD to spend on mindflay? I'm not very good with math and numbers and it maybe sounds like I'm trying to prove something (saying i'm right?) but what I really try to say is, well, ask how it affect our dmg and in what way. eh. just trying to understand how exactly PI would increase our dmg to count as a proper CD (well, its still not better than the 2 other talents but if we pretend it is, how toes it affect our dmg, in what way?)
    Forget breakpoints for a moment, and think about this: DoTs are affected by every percent of haste. Even 1% haste increase increases the dots damage. This is because they "tick faster". Usually, with zero haste, SW:P and VT tick every 3 seconds. With 10% haste, they tick 10% quicker so they tick every 2.73 seconds. With 25% haste (which is around what most priests run with) these dots tick every 2.4 seconds. If you then pop PI, your dots tick with an extra 20% haste on top of that. They effectively do 20% more dps. You don't have to hit any breakpoints to see this dps increase, your dots already tick faster. If you combine this with the FDCL talent, for example, you'll see 20% more FDCL procs (roughly). It's quite a lot of extra damage in that 20 second window, so yes it does do good burst damage. The problem is that it doesn't affect Mind Blast and it doesn't effect whatever Tier 6 talent you choose. DP is quite complicated in the way haste affects it, because like I said in my earlier post it does not scale linearly.

    PI is not the best overall talent, but it certainly isn't useless. It's main flaw is not actually anything wrong with the talent itself, it's a problem with orbs and DP and haste scaling. If these problems are fixed, then our gear scaling would be fixed and then PI would be a much better dps cooldown too. Thats the real root of the problem.
    Last edited by stiglet; 2013-01-31 at 03:13 PM.
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  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by stiglet View Post
    Yep, it's a very similar problem with Orbs. CB doesn't scale with crit without that crit bonus in the same way our orb generation / DP doesn't scale with haste very well at all. The fix would be a neat little way to add a little more dps and scaling.
    Well, I don't know the stat priority of other casters except roughly for warlocks who prefer mastery as secondary stat. Spriest has always been about haste, but right now after breakpoints (the ones around 8085) they're very close which lead me to pass mastery and crit loot to fire mage and warlock since I also knew they scale better with the gear.

    How about Mind Blast doing additional percentage of damage based on x * % of haste. Where x is say 2000. This would increase the value of haste, us preferring haste over mastery and crit. It allows us to hit harder during heroism giving us more burst. It'd boost PI. X would have to be rescaled every content patch though.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 04:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by stiglet View Post
    PI is not the best overall talent, but it certainly isn't useless. It's main flaw is not actually anything wrong with the talent itself, it's a problem with orbs and DP and haste scaling. If these problems are fixed, then our gear scaling would be fixed and then PI would be a much better dps cooldown too. Thats the real root of the problem.
    Picking this talent decreases our overall damage from mediocre (where it is with DI and ToF) to below average. Are there currently any fights where an spriest picks PI over ToF or DI???
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by stiglet View Post
    DP doesn't scale the same way as other dots, because it is a non-refreshable dot much like combustion. You cannot keep the dot ticking indefinitely, which means that unless you hit haste breakpoints it doesn't actually do any more damage. The complete opposite is true of any other dots. There is a breakpoint at 8.3% haste, then every 16.7% ish after that. So, we get an extra tick at 8.3%, then the second tick comes at 25% (which is the damage spike we see at 8085 rating). The next tick comes at 41.7%. Until then, DP gets zero haste scale. However, PI does edge us over so we see a nice increase in dps with PI.

    Orb generation and it's resultant damage doesn't really scale with haste in a linear scale at all unless you spec into DI. This is THE biggest problem with Spriests right now. It would be nice if they changed the mechanic of DP to somehow change the way it scaled with haste. Perhaps if it didn't have haste breakpoints, and only ever had 6 ticks ticking once every 1 second i.e. haste has no effect in the conventional way. Instead, haste would directly increase the damage of the ticks themselves by the same amount of haste i.e. at 25% haste, the ticks on DP do 25% more damage. That would be awesome. Warlocks have a similar mechanic with Crit for a spell I cannot recall right now where that spell cannot crit but instead crit directly increases that spell by the same percentage.

    Edited to say so i'm wrong, it's actually Chaos Bolt I was thinking of and instead of not being able to crit it always crits. But the idea is generally the same.
    It does scale linearly just not continuosly. The only problem is you have to reach haste breakpoints, but scaling is indeed linear.

  15. #175
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    DP is quite complicated in the way haste affects it, because like I said in my earlier post it does not scale linearly.
    DP only "scales" if you can muster up enough haste for an additional tick. (unachievable atm)
    So basically it does NOT scale with haste, at all.

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  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Picking this talent decreases our overall damage from mediocre (where it is with DI and ToF) to below average. Are there currently any fights where an spriest picks PI over ToF or DI???
    Nope, I hardly ever use it. Overall it's a dps loss, like you say. However, consider these two points:

    1) If we had a choice between sustained damage and burst damage, and the fight mechanics had no reason to ever need a burst (i.e. not Spine style) what would be the point? You would simply always choose the one that has the best overall dps. This means 1 talent would never be used. However, if some fights DID need burst occasionally, would you choose the burst talent if it was a slight dps loss overall but the fight mechanics meant you needed a burst? How much worse could the burst talent be before you decided to stick with the sustained dps talent even in a Spine style fight?? That depends on the fight. PI is a good talent, it just has no place in any current fights.

    2) We scale badly with haste, PI is a haste buff. Fix our haste scaling and PI becomes a better talent. But still, I don't think it should ever be better overall than ToF or DI. It should remain situational like most of the other talents. That way, if and when we need a burst CD for a fight, we have one. Otherwise, you go with either of the other 2 talents. That is my understanding of the way Blizzard intended these talents to be.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 04:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by burk23 View Post
    It does scale linearly just not continuosly. The only problem is you have to reach haste breakpoints, but scaling is indeed linear.
    Quite so, but mainly I kinda meant you don't get a benefit with each and every point amount of haste but rather it comes in steps. Which puts our resource generating at a point where it does not scale with haste at all (Mind Blast cooldown) and the thing we use our orbs for doesn't either.
    Last edited by stiglet; 2013-01-31 at 04:21 PM.
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  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Alidie View Post
    Well it does regard the topic "burst cd".

    What I mean is, by getting an extra tick on our dots, what will that give us, one extra GCD to spend on mindflay? I'm not very good with math and numbers and it maybe sounds like I'm trying to prove something (saying i'm right?) but what I really try to say is, well, ask how it affect our dmg and in what way. eh. just trying to understand how exactly PI would increase our dmg to count as a proper CD (well, its still not better than the 2 other talents but if we pretend it is, how toes it affect our dmg, in what way?)
    I have no idea what you're trying to say. Are you saying haste buffs can't be considered burst CDs? Is that why Bloodlust is so bad?

  18. #178
    Dreadlord veiledy0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stiglet View Post
    Nope, I hardly ever use it. Overall it's a dps loss, like you say. However, consider these two points:

    1) If we had a choice between sustained damage and burst damage, and the fight mechanics had no reason to ever need a burst (i.e. not Spine style) what would be the point? You would simply always choose the one that has the best overall dps. This means 1 talent would never be used. However, if some fights DID need burst occasionally, would you choose the burst talent if it was a slight dps loss overall but the fight mechanics meant you needed a burst? How much worse could the burst talent be before you decided to stick with the sustained dps talent even in a Spine style fight?? That depends on the fight. PI is a good talent, it just has no place in any current fights.
    You wouldn't spec PI for spine if it was current content. You'd still go with ToF and proc it on a blood add before the tendon cracks open, because 15% dmg is better than 20% haste.

    In fact, I can't think of a single fight in the last 5 raid tiers where you would spec PI. The only use of it would be tossing it to a Moonkin on Sinestra if it was still castable on others.
    Last edited by veiledy0; 2013-01-31 at 05:37 PM.
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  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by veiledy0 View Post
    You wouldn't spec PI for spine if it was current content. You'd still go with ToF and proc it on a blood add before the tendon cracks open, because 15% dmg is better than 20% haste.

    In fact, I can't think of a single fight in the last 5 raid tiers where you would spec PI. The only use of it would be tossing it to a Moonkin on Sinestra if it was still castable on others.
    Only reason you would spec ToF on spine is because that add exists. if that add didn't exist and you couldn't get a ToF proc, you would spec PI.
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  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by stiglet View Post
    Only reason you would spec ToF on spine is because that add exists. if that add didn't exist and you couldn't get a ToF proc, you would spec PI.
    But they exist and that's the fight soooo...
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