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  1. #281
    What about diversity did you not understand? Spriests are different but they are still extremely strong, in both pve and pvp. Yes, there are other dps classes that can switch to adds better due to their burst cds but giving every class the same shit will make this game even more boring than it is now.

  2. #282
    Epic! Nyxxi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alidie View Post
    There are no "on use" trinkets in this tier
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=93259/sh...rger-medallion

    Once upgraded it is quite a nice trinket, yes the Terrace and Vaults trinkets are better but this is the only on use trinket.
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  3. #283
    Bloodsail Admiral Narshe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enz View Post
    What about diversity did you not understand? Spriests are different but they are still extremely strong, in both pve and pvp. Yes, there are other dps classes that can switch to adds better due to their burst cds but giving every class the same shit will make this game even more boring than it is now.
    Diversity should only apply to utility. I'm not sure how Spriests could be "less unique" by having a burst cd that every other dps class has. Blizzard tried making tanks diverse with their cooldowns but it didn't work.

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  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Enz View Post
    What about diversity did you not understand? Spriests are different but they are still extremely strong, in both pve and pvp. Yes, there are other dps classes that can switch to adds better due to their burst cds but giving every class the same shit will make this game even more boring than it is now.
    please read the whole thread before jumping into conclusions. most of the people here think that a dps cd won't solve our problems. the thread was originally started to mock GC's reply to a certain tweet, and went on to be a pretty nice PvE discussion. we're saying that if we're gonna lack a dps cd, we should at least have competitive sustained dps, which we lack because of the shitty mechanics of the spec and shitty scaling.

    being different from other classes is something, being underpowered on most of the scenarios in the name of being unique is something else, something stupid.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Enz View Post
    What about diversity did you not understand? Spriests are different but they are still extremely strong, in both pve and pvp. Yes, there are other dps classes that can switch to adds better due to their burst cds but giving every class the same shit will make this game even more boring than it is now.
    I would argue that it's better and more interesting to give certain classes certain perks, giving every single class one perk but just withdrawing it from sps isn't interesting or diversity, it's simply giving sps the short end of the stick. Also, how are we extremely strong in pve? It's already been established that we're one of if not the weakest dps class (and no, vampiric embrace and halo healing isn't going to come close to compensate for that).

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    Aren't actually more than 50% of encounters pretty much "multi target" ? Vaults has ~ five, Hof has four and terrace has let's be generous here and say one. Should still easily be half of all encounters.
    No. HoF does not have 4 multiDoT bosses.

    V&T and Warmaster those are typical multiDoT fights. Or Tsulong. Actually Tsulong isn't either, it has quite some AoE too, and burst isn't bad either. Even Elegon has burst and AoE. Only reason we rock on Elegon is ToF (and cascade).

    And even on multiDoT, the shadow priest is currently the worst for this role: boomkin, affli lock, and mage do better.

    HoF 4 multiDoT? No way. 1!! And that's the only boss we don't suck at, the other 5 we sim LAST or last + 1. 1st 2 bosses are pure single target (with movement). 3rd is multiDoT yes, but a shitload of movement and burst. 4th is AoE fest, not multiDoT at all, we're awesome here: for mass dispel, woohoo. 2nd phase is single target and movement. 5th boss is the multiDoT fight. Now the point here is: MultiDoT != multiple targets! If they are close together it is cleave. Queen for example is cleave AoE, not multiDoT, and furthermore is single target.

    As for Vaults. It is entry raid, and only one we're not blowing out of proportion on the lower end of the spectrum. Once your spriest is past Vaults he will suck if he plays with players who are of same quality. There is no way the spriest will do more damage than an equally skilled warlock. The only reason to bring them is to have them as disc (10m esp), or just for the mass dispel. Or to gear them up for the mass dispel fights, lol.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-06 at 12:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Enz View Post
    What about diversity did you not understand? Spriests are different but they are still extremely strong, in both pve and pvp. Yes, there are other dps classes that can switch to adds better due to their burst cds but giving every class the same shit will make this game even more boring than it is now.
    (I didn't mention off healing hereunder. Yep, that's something shadow is good at. Not sure how well compared to other classes. I fully admit it isn't something I regularly looked at (but did help out with when I could). It is a utility, but once again I ask you how fun is it being a buffbot or mana battery or off healer while your output is taxed due to being hybrid.)

    I'm talking about PvE here. What diversity, what unique thing does spriest bring to raid? A glyphed mass dispel which is useful for 2-3 fights in this tier. And that's it. The reason being, shadow don't have mana issues like the healer priests, and they suck at output anyway. That's the only unique utility shadow brings right now. Hymn of Hope is minor, dispersion is minor (and almost every class can soak), and Void Shift can also function as a CD but these are all minor and besides the point of your damage being plain terrible. How fun is it when your output sucks? Ask the priests who played shadow in TBC and WotLK and MoP. The hybrid tax is back! 3.5 out of 5 of the 3-role classes are performing downright bad on their DPS spec (retri, ele, shadow, boomkin bottom; windwalk, enhance, feral are OK). How fun is it when you're only able to pass the warlock on the meters when you play everything perfect and he was terrible? Single target movement? Bad. Cleave? Bad. Burst? Bad. AoE? Bad. All bad. Oh wait, there's one, which is quite rare after MSV: MultiDoT? Good, but worst of the multiDoTers. Its all poppycocks, and Blizzard should've buffed us long before 5.1 but instead mr Crab wanted to fix the mage's specs and didn't dare to touch shadow PvP mid-season. I can see his reasoning very well here: disc good PvE, bad PvP, shadow good PvP, bad PvE, holy meh. There's choice here for a priest player. My choice became: not playing. What pisses me off further is mr Crab's quotes of him "knowing very well about the output classes and specs do" and then being "genuinely surprised shadow needs a buff in 5.2". No ****head, we needed a buff in october 2012, not spring 2013 or whenever 5.2 comes out.
    Last edited by lolalola; 2013-02-06 at 11:52 AM.
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  7. #287
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    "genuinely surprised shadow needs a buff in 5.2".
    Did he say something to that effect? I didn't see it if so (and generally I'm omniscient on the internetz).
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  8. #288
    In a nutshell:

    1. Blizzard do their best to balance classes, Spriests appear fine at the start of the expansion. Major changes to mechanics not needed. Classes more or less set in stone bar a few tweaks to individual spells here and there

    2. SPriest scaling is actually shit, so as gear progresses and dps of classes rise, Spriest dps rises slower than other classes (mainly due to haste and MB / orbs getting zero benefit from it). Hence, a gap begins to widen for better geared and progressed players.

    3. A DPS cooldown does exist in the form of a talent, but it's underpowered because it's based on Haste so players complain that Spriest has no DPS cooldown and see this as the main problem (even though that is arguably not the problem but more a symptom of the problem).

    4. Easy solve: Give Mind blast and / or DP more suitable scaling with Haste. This would indirectly buff Spriests dps whilst also making PI more effective hence giving us the option of a dps cooldown, which quite frankly is all we need.

    Ghostcrawler, unfortunately, seems to base a lot of his balancing on actual figures rather than trying to predict how they will scale. This means he probably won't change much until Spriests are already much worse than they are. Thats just my speculation though.
    Last edited by stiglet; 2013-02-06 at 03:15 PM.
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  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by stiglet View Post
    3. A DPS cooldown does exist in the form of a talent, but it's underpowered because it's based on Haste so players complain that Spriest has no DPS cooldown and see this as the main problem (even though that is arguably not the problem but more a symptom of the problem).
    Don't forget, that it also doesn't stack with bloodlust, unlike other dps cooldowns.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferin View Post
    Don't forget, that it also doesn't stack with bloodlust, unlike other dps cooldowns.
    Yeah, there is that problem too...
    "I never met a miner who complained about the weather"

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    No. HoF does not have 4 multiDoT bosses.

    the other 5 we sim LAST or last + 1.
    Simming and preforming are 2 different things. Look at raidbots and look where spriests are every single fight for 10H and 25H, we aren't the top (b/c arcane is camping at 6 stacks and afflic is slightly OP (as GC has said)) but we certainly aren't near the bottom. Spriest scale not spectacularly but from the looks of it we scaled about 17% looking at the data while afflic locks scaled at 23% overall.
    I say priests are in a good spot, we just need MB reduced by haste like it was in the beta (I think it was in there for a short while).

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Did he say something to that effect? I didn't see it if so (and generally I'm omniscient on the internetz).
    No, sorry, it is my interpretation, I shouldn't have put it in quotes.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20081983
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20056290

    For PvE, we have a really good idea of how much damage everyone can do in every situation.

    [...]

    We haven't made many PvE damage adjustments at all. We will. It's possible Shadow lost too much damage while moving in PvE. Nearly all of these Shadow changes were to tone them down in PvP.

    [...]

    With Shadow, I’ve tried to be honest that we’re not exactly sure of the right thing to hit. […]
    Statement #1 denotes he knows exactly how well classes and specs, including shadow priest, currently perform.

    Statement #2 denotes he isn't even aware of how bad shadow performs.

    Statement #3 denotes he doesn't know how to fix the problem.

    My problem is the combination of statement #1 and #2. Individually nothing wrong with them provided they're true. Statement #1 is one of pride, statement #2 is damage control. And, they are completely contradicting each other unless shadow is the exception to this "pretty good idea". I'm not a fan of taking statements out of context but the combination of these 2 statements together with the 3rd strongly suggest this fellow doesn't know what he's doing.

    And yet. And yet he does not accept our SimCraft numbers, but what about his own sims and maths? He could've figured out himself shadow would become this way, and when it did he should've fixed it. He's getting paid to do it for christ's sake. Its entirely likely he actually has profiles to show what (roughly) would be a BiS set from N and H and sim these. I mean, that's pretty much what statement #1 suggests.

    EDIT: And statement #4 in the post hereunder does more or less suggest the statement I put in quotes:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20123746
    (I fully admit however he did not literally say that, and it is contradicting to statement #2 and #3.)
    Last edited by lolalola; 2013-02-06 at 03:35 PM.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  13. #293
    What really concerns me is this Blue post from GC:


    Ghostcrawler
    Game Designer

    #7 - 2013/02/04 09:22:00 PM
    Unless you can demonstrate that "scaling" is going to cause a 5-10% DPS difference between one spec and another within a single tier (say 13 ilevels or so), we're not inclined to mess with it. I'm not trying to dismiss the concerns, but it's become such a buzzword among players that I worry scaling discussions are drowning out other conversations.


    He already dismissed/blanked Yvaelle’s tweets about the scaling issue (and Lola’s excellent calculation). Unless we can prove, that our dps output still looks crap in 5.2 I don’t think they will budge.

    And on another note – yes we do bring great utility to raids with MD, Dispersion, VE or Mana Hymn. I assume, most of you have been asked to use MH at least once in each fight to help the healers or you just cast it automatically when they’re low on mana. Great for the healers bad for our dps. How about a small buff upon successful completion of MH cast? For example: 10% SP for the next 10 seconds while in combat.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Clebane View Post
    Simming and preforming are 2 different things. Look at raidbots and look where spriests are every single fight for 10H and 25H
    I did, and it looks terrible given it is the only DPS spec we have.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    No. HoF does not have 4 multiDoT bosses.

    And even on multiDoT, the shadow priest is currently the worst for this role: boomkin, affli lock, and mage do better.

    HoF 4 multiDoT? No way. 1!! And that's the only boss we don't suck at, the other 5 we sim LAST or last + 1.
    I actually don't care where you sim as raidbots doesn't look as bad as you claim it to be. And why even start with that stupid affliction and mage argument.

  16. #296
    why not start with that sorry? mages were top with fire spec at the beginning of the expansion, they got nerfed and guess what? come 5,1 it was arcane's turn to shine. and locks have been there since the release. these classes have a choice unlike us. they can switch specs if they're worried about their output in progress or just because they wanna top the meters. we don't have the choice. as it is stated countless times before, if the hybrid tax doesn't exist anymore like the devs say, why the hell do the hybrids suck?

    considering that we're a dot class and we're average on fights where dot classes should shine, i'm pretty sure that's an excellent point to start.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    I actually don't care where you sim as raidbots doesn't look as bad as you claim it to be. And why even start with that stupid affliction and mage argument.
    Raidbots top parses are by their very nature statistical flukes. Statistics 101 is you discount the high and low exceptions. The post I linked to used raidbots 75-100%. This is a good methodology because 1) the amount of parses is statistical relevant 2) you discount the high and low exceptions (the shitters, the undergeared, and those gaming the mechanics to get ranked). But of course this is all irrelevant because "you don't care where I sim"...
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerofpope View Post
    I think I'm done with WoW. Too much are Shadow Priests being shafted, and I'm not into leveling anymore alts. We don't scale with what is *Supposed* to be our best stat in haste. The burst from DP is leaving us soon, and they seem to think a talent that removes all of our DOTS is the solution. It really pains me to play a class and spec that is constantly put in the shitter because Blizzard has no idea what to do with us, or how to make all 3 specs good. If I wanted to play a class with only a single good spec, I'd play a private server and have a Fire Mage.
    Shafted? I just don't really see where you're coming up with this stuff. "*Supposed*" to be our best stat? Says who? History? Things change, and we do still stack 8k haste. A talent that removes all of our dots? FDCL procs don't remove your dots.

    I'm just fully burnt on all of this and the game in general. Myself and other Shadow Priests with better gear than others shouldn't be asked to "Do more damage" because we have nothing to offer in the CD department.
    We're top 5 on damage out of all classes/specs on a decent number of fights, and for the other ones we're middle of the pack, nowhere near the bottom. CD department? Have you ever used glyphed VE with DP? It's an insane CD. Do you not use Void Shift? Almost every fight I save a tank with our version of lay on hands. On top of that, we have the most OP healing spec for our off spec. One that's been powerful enough this tier to single-handedly negate many very difficult fight mechanics. Or if you are talking about burst damage CDs, really a 3 orb DP does crazy burst. It would be nice to get wings back, but if you've really been playing since vanilla, you surely have spent far more time without any burst CDs than with even 1. Perhaps you've just forgotten what priests have gained over the years.

    Enjoy fucking more Priests again Blizzard. I've been playing since Vanilla, and I can truly say I think I'm done.
    I just honestly have no idea how you can feel this way. We're not like we were back in tier 11, but we're still pretty strong overall.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-07 at 06:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Raidbots top parses are by their very nature statistical flukes. Statistics 101 is you discount the high and low exceptions. The post I linked to used raidbots 75-100%. This is a good methodology because 1) the amount of parses is statistical relevant 2) you discount the high and low exceptions (the shitters, the undergeared, and those gaming the mechanics to get ranked). But of course this is all irrelevant because "you don't care where I sim"...
    They're not entirely statistical flukes, though. Nor are they always gaming the mechanics. I know a number of players that consistently rank on every fight. They play the class to the top of it's capability. It's not as evident as it used to be (before the shift to emphasis on single target nuking versus our previously insane dot strength that scaled incredibly on multiple targets), but some classes have a higher skill cap than others. Shadow has historically been one with a decently high skill cap relative to most. So discounting the top players really isn't entirely accurate. When you're determining the max capabilities of a class rather than how much effort many people are putting into playing their class (late on MB leading to weak DP damage, letting dots fall off, poor MF filler usage, etc), discarding the top slice isn't the way to go IMO.

  19. #299
    They're not entirely statistical flukes, though. Nor are they always gaming the mechanics. I know a number of players that consistently rank on every fight. They play the class to the top of it's capability. It's not as evident as it used to be (before the shift to emphasis on single target nuking versus our previously insane dot strength that scaled incredibly on multiple targets), but some classes have a higher skill cap than others. Shadow has historically been one with a decently high skill cap relative to most. So discounting the top players really isn't entirely accurate. When you're determining the max capabilities of a class rather than how much effort many people are putting into playing their class (late on MB leading to weak DP damage, letting dots fall off, poor MF filler usage, etc), discarding the top slice isn't the way to go IMO.
    Sp currently has far from a "high skillcap" single target rotation (a bit more engaging on multiple, but hardly that difficult), there are a few tiny things you can do to get that little bit of extra dps but the difference between a good sp (executing the "rotation") and an amazing sp (doing everything possible to maximize their dps) is relatively small compared to many other classes. Sp's dps also fluctuate significantly from fight to fight with the amount of procs we currently have (not to the same extent as a fire mage, but not that far off), I can easily see a few thousand dps difference on the same fight purely based on the amount of procs I get.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Raidbots top parses are by their very nature statistical flukes. Statistics 101 is you discount the high and low exceptions. The post I linked to used raidbots 75-100%. This is a good methodology because 1) the amount of parses is statistical relevant 2) you discount the high and low exceptions (the shitters, the undergeared, and those gaming the mechanics to get ranked). But of course this is all irrelevant because "you don't care where I sim"...
    Well raidbots top parses is the median of the top 100 which isn't bad statistically - you're implicitly stripping off the people gaming the mechanics and the shitters by using the median rather than the mean.

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