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  1. #21
    That no one commented on the shamans top healing being done by his/her 3 minute cooldown tranq-totem on most attempts is beyond me. Yes, the healing is bad.
    No, that's not why you're dying. As said, mass dispell is a must. Your shadow priests' can't go OOM from using it every 15 seconds as long as they keep vampiric touch up on 3-4 targets, and they can always use dispersion to regen mana if they really have to. Tranq from a shadow priest doesn't heal for anything, so you might aswell not use it. You should still have plenty of cooldowns to use against rain of blades. (druid tranq, shaman tranq, rallying cry, revival, your own HOTW-tranq).

  2. #22
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    That no one commented on the shamans top healing being done by his/her 3 minute cooldown tranq-totem on most attempts is beyond me. Yes, the healing is bad.
    What should a shaman be using then?

    As for the rest of CD, Tranq. from resto tends to get used earlier than p2 to heal the raid up, as well as some other raid healing CDs.

    I do have NV though, but I usually tell the paladin to take aggro (when boss is left) for me to CR someone (if other druid was down) or pop my tranq. w/o HotW. But I can take HotW as well.

    I guess it was a pure luck that we got him down once before (same with Garalon (3 times no fraction of second before enrage)).
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2013-01-30 at 09:54 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  3. #23
    I'll hop in and stress again. Dispels are where this fight lives and dies. You've had your dps check on garalon, its pretty much a non issue on this fight. If you can't beat it into your raid that mechanics matter then you are going to slit your wrists on ambershaper.

    "Hey we all died to massive quckening stacks but our dps rocked!" isn't an attitude you should foster. Beat it out of the spriests.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnillon View Post
    What should a shaman be using then?

    As for the rest of CD, Tranq. from resto tends to get used earlier than p2 to heal the raid up, as well as some other raid healing CDs.

    I do have NV though, but I usually tell the paladin to take aggro (when boss is left) for me to CR someone (if other druid was down) or pop my tranq. w/o HotW. But I can take HotW as well.

    I guess it was a pure luck that we got him down once before (same with Garalon (3 times no fraction of second before enrage)).
    Like. Other heals. Idunno, but it can't be right that like, a fourth of his healing is tied to something he can do every three minutes. It should be closer to 10% or so, atleast looking at other shaman logs.

    NV is also an odd choise for a tank. HOTW gives 6% passive agility and stamina, NV gives you a dps boost every three minutes, and minor healing done to the raid. A HOTW powered tranq is far better, and it gives you a survivability increase.

  5. #25
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    If you one-tank it it's actually easier, imo. If your Prot Pala is any good he'll be able to solo tank that boss and end up as first or second in both damage and healing. For our first kills that's what we did with 3 healers but now we've ditched a healer for a DPS and we 2-heal + 1-tank and he's really easy. Just make sure you always interrupt the Mender and that you have everyone help with the dispells (on Quickening).


  6. #26
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    Agility is waaaaaaaaay down the priority list for a guardian, stamina is decent to have (that is true). Have you read the link I had in one of my post - http://theincbear.com/page/3 . if you scroll bit down on the page? So far the tips there are a great help. Healing after every 3 min with extra damage is good as long as I pop it with Incarnation. I will consider taking HotW if the healing still continues to be an issue in p2. I can use HotW + tranq. only once during the fight. So I would say getting the extra damage after every 3 mins out weighs the stamina bonus.

    And if anyone missed this post...
    Quote Originally Posted by metsla99 View Post
    for physical damage tanking druid is vastly superior right now to prot pally.
    druid tanks just take so much smaller damage - firstly from the extra armor provided by mastery passive and secondly, bear form extra 10% passive damage mitigation that is not listed under armor damage reduction.

    example- winlord phase 2 melee hits, no cooldowns used, personal comparison:
    prot pally - 190-200k normal hits, ~130-140k blocked
    guardian druid - 110k normal hit, not to mention superior dodge chance that avoids alot more hits altogether.
    This comparison shows druid's superior damage reduction on physical hits. damage on blocked hit is still bigger than normal hit taken by druid.

    Example 2:
    from the logs, longest fight: Try 3,duration- 8:11
    damage taken by spell, melee hits:
    Guardian Druid - normal hit- 38917.2 average damage
    Prot pally - normal hit - 58938.4 average damage, blocked hit - 42634.8 average damage (block chance being static 30% this expansion, not that reliable for damage reduction).
    Further proof that physical damage taken is significantly smaller for the druid. even blocked hits by paladin get more damage than average hit for druid.

    In fact i doubt that all 3 combined- maximum SoTR uptime, 100% sacred shield uptime and 30% block chance would amount to less damage taken total (some prot pally can probably prove me wrong but i'm not that good anyways). Plus, druid passively mitigating that much more damage per hit, it makes for smaller damage spikes overall and easier to heal tank.
    Prot pally 100k/5 sec sacred shield mentioned earlier is burned down in 1 melee hit from adds, and you have 5 of them + boss. it will help to mitigate total damage taken somewhat but not by a huge margin.

    i am no mathlab specialist but from logs and personal experience it is absolutely clear that for physical damage or multi-target fights, Druid tanks are far superior.
    and in this case, without that amount of DPS from the druid (vengance is silly-good for druid AOE), this raid would not have enough DPS to win the fight before enrage anyways.
    He says that I should be solotanking and I say he should be solotanking. You all say that prots are good, I won't argue there, but truly if he solo tanks will he survive even?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnillon View Post
    Agility is waaaaaaaaay down the priority list for a guardian, stamina is decent to have (that is true). Have you read the link I had in one of my post - http://theincbear.com/page/3 . if you scroll bit down on the page? So far the tips there are a great help. Healing after every 3 min with extra damage is good as long as I pop it with Incarnation. I will consider taking HotW if the healing still continues to be an issue in p2. I can use HotW + tranq. only once during the fight. So I would say getting the extra damage after every 3 mins out weighs the stamina bonus.

    And if anyone missed this post...

    He says that I should be solotanking and I say he should be solotanking. You all say that prots are good, I won't argue there, but truly if he solo tanks will he survive even?
    You both can survive just fine. You both have the gear for it. A prot pally can heal a lot which mitigates some of the increased damage they are taking while the druid just mitigates it. According to try 3 the pally was ~9k hps above the druid which was at 13k. So it kind of evens out. Either tanking should be fine with good dispels.

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  8. #28
    it might be worth considering bigger dps gain from having one tanking it. I don't know what is your policy in your team, if one of the tanks will then be benched and you bring in "proper" dps, or if you have equally good dps specs. if its the latter - one with higher dps should go dps

    outside of this - test it, have each of you solo tank it and compare numbers + feedback from the healers

  9. #29
    We single tanked it for the extra DPS. Still 3 healed though.

    Rain of Blades hits for a ton of damage once the adds are dead, and if it takes too long, you will run out of effective ways to keep everyone alive.

  10. #30
    We single tanked and 2 healed it without an issue, and that wasn't in any crazy gear either. The first phase you can have your healers literally afk, the second rain of blades just require some coordination with raid cooldowns, just make sure you have a healer cd and a damage reduction (or smaller cd) for each one. e.g we used Tranq + Devo Aura, Hymn + Vamp Emb., Shaman Ele Healing Cooldown and Monk Damage reduction (can't remember the names of those) on rotation and had no issues surviving last phase.

  11. #31
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    If you have a Disc Priest you can 2-heal it easily. Just make sure he always pops SS for Rain of Blades and have backup cooldowns in case he can't get it off on time.

    Oh, and I forgot, make sure your Paladin tank is using SoI + Battle Healer + Holy Prism. He'll do a fuckton of healing. Holy Prism is specially powerful if your melee are slow and often get hit by the boomerang attack-thing, one swing of the prism is enough to top them all off.


  12. #32
    Mechagnome
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    We are two-tanking it(warrior + dk) without much issue, and I'll have to agree about dispels - I have no idea how you manage to survive that long. I guess druid tanks are that good here...
    You have 2 shadow priests, come on, this is ridiculous - just make them take turns. We have 2 hunters constantly single-target dispelling, and we have more dispels in 1 go than you have in all 13 logs together... That said, somehow that boss was easiest progression kill in HoF for us, just took like, 3 tries or something like that.
    Old Gods made me do it.

  13. #33
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnillon View Post
    Thanks for the reply. I heard QQ from our to Spriests that "if they dispel they loose DPS as they will be oom by the middle of the fight".

    We CC (on our kill) and on last night 2 amberthings, 1 mender and 1 blademaster.

    We did rotate the CD in p2. I had to give my symbiosis to a spriest so they would get extra tranq, though I would've preferred consecration in stead of Fear Ward... The priests used their tranq. when other healers had their stuff on CD.

    If you say the paladin should tank this, should I give my spot as OT to a DPS if we have one available? I did use SD over FR, as I did read the suggestion from here - http://theincbear.com/page/3 - what do use. Around 90% is melee dmg if I look at logs.
    Tell your sPriests to L2VampiricTouch for mana. ^^

    Also, when our dps complained that task X cost them too much dps, raid lead said: "DPS isn't the problem in this encounter." And it isn't. The boss only starts getting bonus damage taken when the first pack is down anyway, so as soon as your battle mender add dies, there's no more quickening that needs to be dispelled anyway. Hardly the middle of the fight. DPS are lazy by default and will naturally refuse to do anything that goes outside of their normal rotation :P

    We 2-healed this encounter in normal mode, and our prot pala was getting hit like a truck too (he didn't have that battle mender blah glyph thingy at that point *smacks him for it*). Resto-shaman, holy pala. Monk, resto-shaman. Monk, holy pala... Those are the combinations of healers that we ran for normal mode. During the later rains of blades, we additionally got Tranqs from moonkin and/or priest (symbiosis is great) and used self-CDs. Also, we had everyone who could cast any kind of healing do so. Again, DPS isn't the problem in this encounter. Staying alive is. And it's not only a healer's job to make sure you remain alive.

    Also, CCing 2 menders and 1 each of the other guys is often the preferred strategy. Should make it easier on the quickenings, and only one add needs to be interrupted.

  14. #34
    we single tank it (monk) with a 3 heals (monk, druid, and me as a shaman)
    with our combo of heals we always have a CD or two for rain of blades

    single tanking with three heals is best from what i've done cause one healer can just solo heal tank while others role hots and raid heal.

    with one tank (especially monks omg) their dps sky rockets.
    untill the adds die our tank is pulling a consistent 220k+


    try having the pally solo tank it and bitch at the SP to dispell faster and it shouldn't be a problem if one healer focuses tank
    Quote Originally Posted by -Ethos- View Post
    I literally die every time i see people using literally wrong.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnillon View Post
    He says that I should be solotanking and I say he should be solotanking. You all say that prots are good, I won't argue there, but truly if he solo tanks will he survive even?
    I linked the logs to our prot pala solo tanking it on the last page. He took 22.2m damage. He self healed 10.2m of that and he also did 4.5m healing to the raid. He was top dps and 2nd top healer. I think the bottom line here is that all tanks can shine if you give them the opportunity (dispel so they dont get gibbed) I'm sure bears are great too, I'd take the pally for the healing he does to the raid tho.

  16. #36
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    If you want logs:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1871&e=2337

    I'm the Paladin tank in that fight. Took 25M damage, healed 20M (single tanking). As you can see, my healing plus the disc priest's is almost enough to handle it, leaving the resto shaman far behind.


  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by metsla99 View Post
    for physical damage tanking druid is vastly superior right now to prot pally.
    druid tanks just take so much smaller damage - firstly from the extra armor provided by mastery passive and secondly, bear form extra 10% passive damage mitigation that is not listed under armor damage reduction.

    example- winlord phase 2 melee hits, no cooldowns used, personal comparison:
    prot pally - 190-200k normal hits, ~130-140k blocked
    guardian druid - 110k normal hit, not to mention superior dodge chance that avoids alot more hits altogether.
    This comparison shows druid's superior damage reduction on physical hits. damage on blocked hit is still bigger than normal hit taken by druid.

    Example 2:
    from the logs, longest fight: Try 3,duration- 8:11
    damage taken by spell, melee hits:
    Guardian Druid - normal hit- 38917.2 average damage
    Prot pally - normal hit - 58938.4 average damage, blocked hit - 42634.8 average damage (block chance being static 30% this expansion, not that reliable for damage reduction).
    Further proof that physical damage taken is significantly smaller for the druid. even blocked hits by paladin get more damage than average hit for druid.

    In fact i doubt that all 3 combined- maximum SoTR uptime, 100% sacred shield uptime and 30% block chance would amount to less damage taken total (some prot pally can probably prove me wrong but i'm not that good anyways). Plus, druid passively mitigating that much more damage per hit, it makes for smaller damage spikes overall and easier to heal tank.
    Prot pally 100k/5 sec sacred shield mentioned earlier is burned down in 1 melee hit from adds, and you have 5 of them + boss. it will help to mitigate total damage taken somewhat but not by a huge margin.
    You don't understand how pally mastery works. Block is not a static 30%. SotR is a huge damage reduction which is why pallys are stacking mastery/haste.

    The 100k/5 SS aren't really that great. On that fight you're looking at much higher SS if you have all the adds and boss on you. You get 100K+ shields in msv on fights with no adds. Add in the multiple short cooldown defensive spells...

    On topic: Well, your pally isn't using cooldowns. In an 8 minute fight, he used a 2minute cd once. He used a 1min cd 2 times. He didn't even use GoAK at all. SS ticks: 18. I'm not going to go through your other parses, but if that's how your tank is handling himself, you've got problems.

    About the only thing he did well was keep up shield of the righteous almost as much as possible (through use of a combination dps/def cd, that he didn't even use often enough (3/5 chances), which means he doesn't care about survival, but dps).

  18. #38
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    Most common strategies don't work for our raid unfortunately. Never have.

    I know that CCing 2 Menders would be the best way, as no quickening later, less damage and CC doesn't break when 2 Menders die, BUT we have "issues" of releasing people with 1 Trapper up. You can imagine how hard it will be with 2 up.

    We don't have nowhere to dig a disc priest up. A mix or rshaman, mw, 2x druid, 1 hpala is what we have the chance to choose from and not all of them are available each and every raid night.
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2013-01-30 at 02:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  19. #39
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    If you're having problems with the trappers it's because people are not spreading when the trap is launched (you can't be within 3 yards of other people). If you do that, then there should be no problem. Just have your raid leader configure his raid frames to show who has trap debuffs (the trap itself and the one that prohibits you from disarming traps) and he can call out people to go and untrap someone else.


  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    If you're having problems with the trappers it's because people are not spreading when the trap is launched (you can't be within 3 yards of other people). If you do that, then there should be no problem. Just have your raid leader configure his raid frames to show who has trap debuffs (the trap itself and the one that prohibits you from disarming traps) and he can call out people to go and untrap someone else.
    The aoe isn't when the trap is launched, it's when the debuff expires. You've got 2-3 seconds to move.

    ^^If you're having problems with people not breaking traps with only 1 trapper, you're not prioritizing the fight correctly. The dps requirements on this fight aren't near what they are for garalon. If people can't figure it out, make them do it w/out doing any dps.

    Like I implied above, you can stack up if people can be aware. If you can't, stand in a 10-15yard clump near where the people are who need to cc.

    Edit: If you can't manage quick rxns to debuffs you're REALLY going to struggle on the next boss. It has way higher personal responsibility requirements. Get the on the track to better raiding here, where it's easier.
    Last edited by Ripster42; 2013-01-30 at 02:22 PM.

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