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  1. #1
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    Windlord N and healing

    Is the healing shit or is everyone doing things wrong?

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/bgsx3zcc8evmrlt8/

    guardian/prot pala tanking (yes we 2 tank it, just to make it bit easier for healers), shaman/monk/druid healing (and 3 healers as with 2 we are dead).

    I know that I as guardian, should be keeping my SD up, but I can't do so. I got all healers complaining that I was too hard to keep up or heal. As soon as I went using FR >>> SD the healing on me started being a none issue.

    Other, paladin, tank focuses more on healing as well, as if he doesn't healers complain that he takes too much damage. Paladin uses Seal of Insight to survive.

    My question is should we be really focusing on self healing, when we are 3 healing? I know that I get hit once in a while by the blade, as I fail to see what direction is the boss aiming (I'm tanking the adds, other tank is tanking boss on top of adds) <- that is my issue what I need to fix, no argument.

    But outside my own fuckups with the blade and ppl not paying attention to wind bombs in p2, should tanks focus on self healing or DPS?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
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  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnillon View Post
    Is the healing shit or is everyone doing things wrong?

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/bgsx3zcc8evmrlt8/

    guardian/prot pala tanking (yes we 2 tank it, just to make it bit easier for healers), shaman/monk/druid healing (and 3 healers as with 2 we are dead).

    I know that I as guardian, should be keeping my SD up, but I can't do so. I got all healers complaining that I was too hard to keep up or heal. As soon as I went using FR >>> SD the healing on me started being a none issue.

    Other, paladin, tank focuses more on healing as well, as if he doesn't healers complain that he takes too much damage. Paladin uses Seal of Insight to survive.

    My question is should we be really focusing on self healing, when we are 3 healing? I know that I get hit once in a while by the blade, as I fail to see what direction is the boss aiming (I'm tanking the adds, other tank is tanking boss on top of adds) <- that is my issue what I need to fix, no argument.

    But outside my own fuckups with the blade and ppl not paying attention to wind bombs in p2, should tanks focus on self healing or DPS?
    I would not advice you 2 tanking it, as a vengeance tank (pala) heals for a shit ton.

    If you wanna 2 tank it tho, he should grab alle the adds, and you the boss.

    Tanks with shields are better on many mobs than the rest.

    You will have problems with outhealing the Raining Blades in p2 if you have problem on healing in p1.
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  3. #3
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/ahmec...?s=2641&e=3099 <- this is out kill (just adding it) from few weeks ago. I took almost 10k less damage on our longer try then I did when we killed it and I was hard to heal x_x and then I had all the adds as well and it was not an issue.
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2013-01-29 at 10:59 PM.
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished <- RECRUITING
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  4. #4
    On fights where you get huge amounts of vengeance as a guardian druid, it's usually preferable to use FR > SD due to the huge heals it gives. However, if your priests are handling the dispelling properly, the tank-damage on this fight isn't that high. I'm not too keen on world of logs, so can't check dispells properly for you, but that might be something you're doing wrong.

  5. #5
    There isn't a single mass dispel in that log. That's most likely your problem.

    Sha of Fear Melee hit You 372908 Physical. (766625 Overkill) (Critical)
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  6. #6
    Epic! shokter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    There isn't a single mass dispel in that log. That's most likely your problem.
    ^^^

    Having dps or tank let the priests know when quickening goes out so they can Mass Dispel will make things much easier on tanks/heals. Will likely allow you to drop either a tank or heal or both, but even if you still feel you need 2 tanks/3heals after focusing Mass Dispels on quickening the incoming damage should drop quite a bit.
    "Brevity is...wit"

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    There isn't a single mass dispel in that log. That's most likely your problem.
    ^^ its so important that in heroic mode if we take more than a few secs to mass dispell the tank will killed very quick. Our disc priest is on dispell duty and he was bitching about going oom cuz of dispells so I started innervating him just to help him out a bit.

    Get ur dispells right and u can EASILY 1 tank it on normal mode.

  8. #8
    Scarab Lord Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Gotta Mass dispel the damage buff from the adds/boss, otherwise, they hit like many trucks.
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  9. #9
    I would advise using 1 tank and 3 healers. The damage in P1 isn't too bad; even with all the adds and boss on one tank. Just make sure that if your healers get trapped to break them out as soon as possible, or coordinate that information with the tank so he can pop one of his CDs. In P2 we just have the melee and tank stand in the middle and the range spread out around so that the melee are clustered for AoE heals and the range are all in range of the 3 healers spread out around the room. If the tank is dying in P1 then it will only get worse in P2 where the rain of blades does like 85k DPS for 6 seconds.

  10. #10
    Its easy to one tank as long as you are on top of dispels. REALLY on top of them, theres other ways to dispel than mass dispel.

    In reply to the original question about healing, its actually best to let the prot pala solo tank this. If he keeps his sacred shield up (50% uptime is subpar) he will do great self heals. It's sooooo important to have it up 100% of the time. It will tick for 100k or so every 5 seconds with high vengeance, over 1 of your attempts his healed only 685k for the duration of the fight. Compared to our prot pala http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-p6...?s=3954&e=4355 (I normally tank this but healed since we were short a healer) He did 5 m healing with sacred shield alone. The difference is vengeance and buff uptime.

    As to healing, dispel the adds really frequently as the damage ramps up scarily if you don't. (I'm repeating!)

    The other important part of this fight is to have a cooldown rotation for every rain of blades when the adds are dead. They hurt a lot so you HAVE to have something for each one. Classes with offheals can help here too if its tight for you because of lack of gear or experience. Don't forget personal CD's, barkskin, lock cookies, disperse, BoP a healer and so on.

    Finally, since I'm a tank at heart, holy prism is good for one off burst heals but the hammer will almost cover melee on its own and its timer lines up nicely with the rain of blades.

    tl;dr Dispel often when the menders are up. Helps immensely. CD rotation for each rain of blades when he has recklesness. Avoid derping to windbombs. Win!

    GL.
    Last edited by Deja Thoris; 2013-01-30 at 12:34 AM.

  11. #11
    you have 2 priests, so keeping up on the dispels shouldn't be a problem (tip is to get the tank to call out at 2 stacks), therefore you shouldn't struggle at all to 1 tank it. As people said earlier, using the pala tank as solo may make the healing easier. But, overall if you are good with your mass dispel 1 tanking shouldn't be an issue.

    With regards to damage taken, it really helps to make sure no wind bombs go off at all. Additionally, when you've started getting adds down whirling blade will start to hit for a tonne, so getting your raid to pay that extra little bit of attention to not get hit by it at all (not just avoiding it on the return journey) could help your healers out a lot.

    Lastly I guess it's just micromanaging your healers and raid wide defensive cooldowns for rain of blades.

    The other question is what adds do you have cc? Blademasters tend to be the ones that hit hardest, so its a case of balancing what exactly you're cc'ing.

    I'm by no means an expert on this right, in fact we have only got him down twice (during last 2 lockouts!), but we have been hitting this fight for quite a long time and these are the changes we made to beat the damage.

    I hope you get him down soon

  12. #12
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    Thanks for the reply. I heard QQ from our to Spriests that "if they dispel they loose DPS as they will be oom by the middle of the fight".

    We CC (on our kill) and on last night 2 amberthings, 1 mender and 1 blademaster.

    We did rotate the CD in p2. I had to give my symbiosis to a spriest so they would get extra tranq, though I would've preferred consecration in stead of Fear Ward... The priests used their tranq. when other healers had their stuff on CD.

    If you say the paladin should tank this, should I give my spot as OT to a DPS if we have one available? I did use SD over FR, as I did read the suggestion from here - http://theincbear.com/page/3 - what do use. Around 90% is melee dmg if I look at logs.
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2013-01-30 at 06:16 AM.
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished <- RECRUITING
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnillon View Post
    Thanks for the reply. I heard QQ from our to Spriests that "if they dispel they loose DPS as they will be oom by the middle of the fight".

    We CC (on our kill) and on last night 2 amberthings, 1 mender and 1 blademaster.

    We did rotate the CD in p2. I had to give my symbiosis to a spriest so they would get extra tranq, though I would've preferred consecration in stead of Fear Ward... The priests used their tranq. when other healers had their stuff on CD.

    If you say the paladin should tank this, should I give my spot as OT to a DPS if we have one available? I did use SD over FR, as I did read the suggestion from here - http://theincbear.com/page/3 - what do use. Around 90% is melee dmg if I look at logs.
    You HAVE TO dispel that. There's an insane damage boost, and with only one tank, their dps will easily make up for it. Shamans/Mages can also dispel, but it HAS TO be done. How you even killed it without dispels....I don't even.

    Sha of Fear Melee hit You 372908 Physical. (766625 Overkill) (Critical)
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  14. #14
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    You HAVE TO dispel that.
    I know that, the priests were told to dispel x_x

    How you even killed it without dispels....I don't even.
    Guess the healers along were just doing better on our kill.
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished <- RECRUITING
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  15. #15
    Stood in the Fire Static Transit's Avatar
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    How my group does it is with 1 tank, 3 healers. If your healers can't keep up the tank, either the tank is bad or your healers are bad. My group CCs two menders, a blademaster, and an amber-shaper. This makes transitions pretty easy, and keeps the dps and dispels focused. Just focus down the mender (and this way, you won't need to MASS dispel). After that, it's just even aoe the other 4 adds down and then you have that phase in the bag. For our group, phase 2 is the hardest part, as someone always accidentally hits a wind bomb (during a rain of blades, of all things). Just make sure not to hit those wind bombs and to rotate healing CDs for rains and you should be good. Just make sure that in phase 1 you have a melee (looks like you have a rogue and warrior) interrupting the mending and a priest dispelling the buff. You could even have your hunter tranq shot it (that's what I do for my group whenever I can, though usually it gets dispelled before I can).

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  16. #16
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    We kill the adds roughly the same time. And were keeping 2 amberthings CC'd this time as it worked for us the last time. Even with 1 amberthing out the clicking on ppl was starting to become an issue in the later of p1, so having 2 amberthings up is a NO for us.

    EDIT: How do I write an expression to see ho many times quickening was cast?
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2013-01-30 at 08:23 AM.
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished <- RECRUITING
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  17. #17
    for physical damage tanking druid is vastly superior right now to prot pally.
    druid tanks just take so much smaller damage - firstly from the extra armor provided by mastery passive and secondly, bear form extra 10% passive damage mitigation that is not listed under armor damage reduction.

    example- winlord phase 2 melee hits, no cooldowns used, personal comparison:
    prot pally - 190-200k normal hits, ~130-140k blocked
    guardian druid - 110k normal hit, not to mention superior dodge chance that avoids alot more hits altogether.
    This comparison shows druid's superior damage reduction on physical hits. damage on blocked hit is still bigger than normal hit taken by druid.

    Example 2:
    from the logs, longest fight: Try 3,duration- 8:11
    damage taken by spell, melee hits:
    Guardian Druid - normal hit- 38917.2 average damage
    Prot pally - normal hit - 58938.4 average damage, blocked hit - 42634.8 average damage (block chance being static 30% this expansion, not that reliable for damage reduction).
    Further proof that physical damage taken is significantly smaller for the druid. even blocked hits by paladin get more damage than average hit for druid.

    In fact i doubt that all 3 combined- maximum SoTR uptime, 100% sacred shield uptime and 30% block chance would amount to less damage taken total (some prot pally can probably prove me wrong but i'm not that good anyways). Plus, druid passively mitigating that much more damage per hit, it makes for smaller damage spikes overall and easier to heal tank.
    Prot pally 100k/5 sec sacred shield mentioned earlier is burned down in 1 melee hit from adds, and you have 5 of them + boss. it will help to mitigate total damage taken somewhat but not by a huge margin.

    i am no mathlab specialist but from logs and personal experience it is absolutely clear that for physical damage or multi-target fights, Druid tanks are far superior.
    and in this case, without that amount of DPS from the druid (vengance is silly-good for druid AOE), this raid would not have enough DPS to win the fight before enrage anyways.

  18. #18
    as a prot paladin on this fight let me offer some advise from that standpoint:
    - as prot I am top healer on this fight, or just under couple of percent behind our disc priest
    - I saw in WoL that your tank was using holy prism, for me hammer of light works much better to both damage the adds and heal all melee
    - yes, we solo tank this

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by hlx View Post
    as a prot paladin on this fight let me offer some advise from that standpoint:
    - as prot I am top healer on this fight, or just under couple of percent behind our disc priest
    - I saw in WoL that your tank was using holy prism, for me hammer of light works much better to both damage the adds and heal all melee
    - yes, we solo tank this

    So you're saying that main reason Prot should maintank/solotank this is Healing done, not better survival or DPS ?

    i have long post waiting for moderator approval that shows how much more incoming damage prot pally takes compared to guardian druid.

  20. #20
    I did not say anything like that. we don't have a guardian druid to check it on our fights, what I was trying to point out is that paladin in question can improve his on his part. his sacred shield uptime (as mentioned above) should be twice as much as his in WoL and both dps and hps should be higher.
    granted, some part of that will come from: solo tanking > more vengeance > bigger numbers

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