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  1. #241
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFu4ever View Post
    She is literally a villain whose people had no innate need to expand and conquer and were ultimately driven to their extreme methods of defense by the Alliance. The best defense against the Forsaken is to leave them alone.
    The Alliance should leave them alone? How come? It's the Forsaken invading their land, the Alliance you see is a counter attack to Forsaken aggression. I don't know how the Alliance can be blamed at all when they're the ones defending themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by DFu4ever View Post
    And before someone once again points out the Invasion of Gilneas as Forsaken aggression, let me once again point out that...

    1) Garrosh ordered the assault, and the Forsaken had no recourse to say no.

    2) "Sylvanas could have refused". Right, and suddenly the Forsaken would potentially lose their place in the Horde and find themselves standing alone against the Alliance (who have treated them as monsters from the very first moment).
    She showed no guilt or remorse for what she did to both Gilneas and Southshore, she chased down the refugees of those who homes she destroyed in Southshore so that she could raise them into Undeath to add to her army which is nothing short of deliberate genocide for the sake furthering her own army. She isn't for one second innocent.
    It is not the act of attacking a place that is the problem. It is how she did it.

    The Alliance have treated them as monsters because that's all the Forsaken have ever been and done to them and for good reason. The first time they encountered a splinter of the Alliance they betrayed and slaughtered them all, following this she appoints a freaking Dreadlord as her second in command. Tell me why should be trusted if that is what they did as their first action as a people.
    Why should the Alliance treat them any differently to what they've shown themselves to be?

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by DFu4ever View Post
    I love when people act like Sylvanas is moustache-twirly evil when her motives for her actions are incredibly sound and justified from the perspective of the Forsaken. Not to mention she is pretty intelligent and not prone to random violence. She is literally a villain whose people had no innate need to expand and conquer and were ultimately driven to their extreme methods of defense by the Alliance. The best defense against the Forsaken is to leave them alone.

    And before someone once again points out the Invasion of Gilneas as Forsaken aggression, let me once again point out that...

    1) Garrosh ordered the assault, and the Forsaken had no recourse to say no.

    2) "Sylvanas could have refused". Right, and suddenly the Forsaken would potentially lose their place in the Horde and find themselves standing alone against the Alliance (who have treated them as monsters from the very first moment).
    And I find it equally amusing when people forget that it was the Forsaken, not the living humans, who struck first.

    Way back in WC3:TFT before the Forsaken joined the Horde, Sylvanas made an alliance with Garithos after she freed him from Balnazzar's control. As part of the deal, both armies would work together to defeat the Dreadlord-controlled scourge operating in the capital, and Garithos would be given control of the city after the fact. After the battle, Sylvanas betrayed Garithos and his army, killing them and seized control of the city for the Forsaken.

    While it's true that Garthios was never exactly the most accepting of...diversity and may not of honored the deal in the long term, the fact remains the first interaction between the Alliance and Forsaken ended with the Forsaken stabbing them in the back.
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  3. #243
    I don't think the popularity or her boobs will play a role in the end. If she goes Lich King style she will have the same fate as the Lich King. Remember that the Lich King had the same fanbase behind him. I was one of them. That however didn't stopped Blizzard to kill him. Thing is that there will be an Army of Light and the Forsaken will take part in it. However I think that Sylvannas has to be replaced in order for that to happen. As long as the Forsaken have the attitude of the Scourge(hate against all living and turning them into undead) I don't think they will be part of that army.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Mails-Prowers View Post
    However I think that Sylvannas has to be replaced in order for that to happen. As long as the Forsaken have the attitude of the Scourge(hate against all living and turning them into undead) I don't think they will be part of that army.
    Sylvanas doesn't need to be replaced she just needs to tone it down a bit and if that quote about the warchief disciplining her and her people for using scourge tactics is to be believed then she will do just that so problem solved. The forsaken don't need to have a love for the alliance/living to fight the legion especially if their goal is self preservation. There are members of the burning legion that has a bone to pick with her (Varimathras and his bros), so I can see Sylvanas having a major role(on the horde side) in the whole burning legion fight.
    Last edited by Darkenedfist; 2013-01-31 at 04:27 PM.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Falrinn View Post
    And I find it equally amusing when people forget that it was the Forsaken, not the living humans, who struck first.

    Way back in WC3:TFT before the Forsaken joined the Horde, Sylvanas made an alliance with Garithos after she freed him from Balnazzar's control. As part of the deal, both armies would work together to defeat the Dreadlord-controlled scourge operating in the capital, and Garithos would be given control of the city after the fact. After the battle, Sylvanas betrayed Garithos and his army, killing them and seized control of the city for the Forsaken.

    While it's true that Garthios was never exactly the most accepting of...diversity and may not of honored the deal in the long term, the fact remains the first interaction between the Alliance and Forsaken ended with the Forsaken stabbing them in the back.
    The Alliance between him and Sylvanas was really always going to end with one of them double crossing the other. The man had already shown his true colours by double crossing Kael and the Blood Elves so I really doubt he would have let the Forsaken live.

    Sylvanas only stabbed him in the back first, both were only using the other to get the Dreadlords/Scourge out of Lorderon.

    I don't think anybody who played WC3 TFT had any sympathy for him after his actions during the blood elf campaign.

    The Scarlet crusade I would say were the biggest threat to harden the forsaken against the living humans, regardless of the fact that the Dreadlord was behind it.

  6. #246
    The thing Darkenedfist is for Sylvannas to indeed tone down a little. I need to see the Forsaken going with their old quest again. That means finding a cure for their curse and not trying to be another Scourge.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    She showed no guilt or remorse for what she did to both Gilneas and Southshore, she chased down the refugees of those who homes she destroyed in Southshore so that she could raise them into Undeath to add to her army which is nothing short of deliberate genocide for the sake furthering her own army.
    First, the Forsaken are the people of Lordaeron, so no, they aren't the invaders no matter how the Alliance tries to frame it.

    And why should she feel remorse for them, especially the people of SS. South Shore is in Lordaeron and was being used, like Ambermill, to support Alliance actions in the area. It was a military target and was technically in the territory the Forsaken have made clear that they consider to be theirs. If the Forsaken set up a town in Westfall, Varian similarly smash it to pieces without regard for Forsaken casualties (as they are not people, you see).

    Yeah, I would start to lack remorse for killing my enemies if they didn't see me as having a right to exist.

    EDIT: And the Forsaken will never become another Scourge because they all have free will. Arthas controlled the Scourge absolutely. Sylvanas does not have that ability and despised Arthas for using it on her.
    Last edited by DFu4ever; 2013-01-31 at 05:25 PM.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by DFu4ever View Post
    Arthas controlled the Scourge absolutely. Sylvanas does not have that ability and despised Arthas for using it on her.
    It seems like the most powerful scourge chose to serve or somehow fell into darkness. Some were apparently able to resist like Bolvar and some were broken/fell like Saurfang. If Arthas could just MC any undead wouldn't he have raised Uther and used him as his ultimate weapon.
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  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Mails-Prowers View Post
    The thing Darkenedfist is for Sylvannas to indeed tone down a little. I need to see the Forsaken going with their old quest again. That means finding a cure for their curse and not trying to be another Scourge.
    That would be biggest lore fail since Medan. So many possibilities, yet you want them to become... humans.

  10. #250
    More people were crying about Garrosh being a bad leader, so Blizzard caved to their demands and made him into a raid boss. They completely overlooked how he was a decent leader, just had problems with controlling his armies because of the corrupt members of the Horde. Sylvannas is a monster, but people didn't care cause she's a woman that wears almost no clothing. I'd rather she die, Arthas (free of the Lich King) come back, and become the new leader of the Forsaken.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    The Battle for Gilneas BG says it's still contested.
    Would be nice to see a conclusion, but with it being a BG nothing will probably happen.
    But maybe the BG is set before the silverpine quests. That's why i said that i really liked to see the timeline for that.

  12. #252
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dokhidamo View Post
    there's a population that is all "lol, she has boobs."

    But I think the bigger appeal is that she is becoming an increasingly villainous, Arthas-esque character. People are waiting for the grand betrayal.

    And the fact, when she betrays, Blizz won't lock all the forsaken characters. Forsaken will become a third faction.

    PS. If anyone were to replace her, it'd be Nathanos Marris, or Calia Menethil.
    They're not going to make a third faction, a horde aligned leader would appear

    And Calia won't ever be leader she's a terrible milquetoast.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 12:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainArlong View Post
    More people were crying about Garrosh being a bad leader, so Blizzard caved to their demands and made him into a raid boss. They completely overlooked how he was a decent leader, just had problems with controlling his armies because of the corrupt members of the Horde. Sylvannas is a monster, but people didn't care cause she's a woman that wears almost no clothing. I'd rather she die, Arthas (free of the Lich King) come back, and become the new leader of the Forsaken.
    If Garrosh hadn't been racist against the trolls and such for no reason I'd have been behind him 100%
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  13. #253
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    But maybe the BG is set before the silverpine quests. That's why i said that i really liked to see the timeline for that.
    The description specifically says it's taking place after the events of Silverpine.

  14. #254
    Pandaren Monk Orby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzl View Post
    i like sylvanas
    Me too, I hope they keep her true intentions for Wc4... I absolutely love her character.

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFu4ever View Post
    First, the Forsaken are the people of Lordaeron, so no, they aren't the invaders no matter how the Alliance tries to frame it.
    What are on about? Gilneas, Southshore, Hinterlands and Stromgarde say hi!
    The Alliance invasion in Silverpine is a counter attack for Forsaken aggression to put an end to their offensive. This is a fact, to imply otherwise is ignoring the timeline.

    The Forsaken have quite literally expanded into every zone within arms reach, even those that were not a part of Lordaeron, killing left and right in what is a genocidal fashion without any regard for the victims. So when the Alliance counter attacks the Forsaken, the Alliance are the bad guys? Just no.

    Quote Originally Posted by DFu4ever View Post
    And why should she feel remorse for them, especially the people of SS. South Shore is in Lordaeron and was being used, like Ambermill, to support Alliance actions in the area. It was a military target and was technically in the territory the Forsaken have made clear that they consider to be theirs.
    Tell me where it says anywhere that Soutshore was being used to support the war. The fact is that it's destruction was one of the first moves of war before the Alliance even mobilized. It was not supplying the war effort as the war didn't exist at the time. It was by no means a military target the book about the battle doesn't even mention much fighting at all and focusses on the fleeing civilians.

    Why are you rabitting on about "Forsaken territory"? The people of Southshore live there, it's there's. There is no valid reason for the Forsaken to lay claim to it except for their will to conquer as much territory as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by DFu4ever View Post
    If the Forsaken set up a town in Westfall, Varian similarly smash it to pieces without regard for Forsaken casualties (as they are not people, you see).
    I beg your pardon? Do you know how long Southshore has been there? What makes the Forsaken's "right" to it greater than those that live there?

    Quote Originally Posted by DFu4ever View Post
    Yeah, I would start to lack remorse for killing my enemies if they didn't see me as having a right to exist.
    Now you're just being silly. Just because they see you for what they are doesn't mean they shouldn't have any remorse or sympathy for those they kill. Why do the Forsaken deserve remorse when they give none and spit on every moral ground the Alliance stands on?

    Quote Originally Posted by DFu4ever View Post
    EDIT: And the Forsaken will never become another Scourge because they all have free will. Arthas controlled the Scourge absolutely. Sylvanas does not have that ability and despised Arthas for using it on her.
    Just because they have free will doesn't mean they're that much different. They're still going around conquering other nations territories via the use of plague and Necromancy to bolster their numbers while caring nothing for the lives of those they destroy.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-01-31 at 08:10 PM.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by HavocPrime View Post
    Unlike Slyvanas, Garrosh does not have a supportive fan base, and has little to no people calling for her head on forums, is mainly why we haven't done anything about her yet.
    If the opinions of people on public forums could sway the lore and plot of this game, it would be a wildly different game.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 07:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Me too, I hope they keep her true intentions for Wc4... I absolutely love her character.
    You still think there will be a WC4, that's cute.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 08:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkenedfist View Post
    Sylvanas doesn't need to be replaced she just needs to tone it down a bit and if that quote about the warchief disciplining her and her people for using scourge tactics is to be believed then she will do just that so problem solved.
    Because Sylvanas has a storied history of submitting to authority, oh wait.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 08:15 PM ----------

    Anyone remember when Dwarves used to be relevant? Really shitty to see what little role they had in the game (booze and history buffs) taken over by damned pandas. We didn't even get any Dark-Iron action in Cata what with the return of Rag. And the ONLY relevant dwarf, Bronzebeard, is now a glorified vendor while that "Lorewalker" Cho asshat is prancing about titan ruins in his stead. Like seriously, wtf.
    Last edited by Redmage; 2013-01-31 at 08:18 PM.

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  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    What are on about? Gilneas, Southshore, Hinterlands and Stromgarde say hi!
    The Alliance invasion in Silverpine is a counter attack for Forsaken aggression to put an end to their offensive. This is a fact, to imply otherwise is ignoring the timeline.
    I already addressed Gilneas. Southshore is in Lordaeron and has harbored Alliance since vanilla. This is literally not even a point you can argue against. If people chose to settle there while it acted as an Alliance safe haven in the remnants of Lordaeron, then they ultimately got turned to goo. Stromgarde is a ruin and the Horde only have a tiny outpost in the Hinterlands. The Syndicate and Ogres are Stromgarde's actual problem, not the Forsaken...or even the Horde really.

    The Forsaken have quite literally expanded into every zone within arms reach, even those that were not a part of Lordaeron, killing left and right in what is a genocidal fashion without any regard for the victims. So when the Alliance counter attacks the Forsaken, the Alliance are the bad guys? Just no.
    Except, the Forsaken are technically defending Lordaeron. If something was a part of Lordaeron, then the Forsaken of Lordaeron have the best claim on it. South Shore would have probably been fine if it didn't act as an Alliance outpost. The Forsaken have no Forsaken-only influence in the Eastern Kingdoms that isn't contained within the borders of Lordaeron. (Gilneas, for the millionth time, is a Horde operation/one of Garrosh's numerous terrible ideas).

    Tell me where it says anywhere that Soutshore was being used to support the war. The fact is that it's destruction was one of the first moves of war before the Alliance even mobilized.
    Honestly? Did you not play in vanilla? It had a flight point. It brought Alliance players right into the Forsaken's backyard. Numerous wikis confirm it actually had an Alliance garrison according to the lore.

    Do you really wonder why it was smashed almost immediately?

    There is no valid reason for the Forsaken to lay claim to it except for their will to conquer as much territory as possible.
    Sigh. Two reasons the Forsaken had every right to attack SS.

    1) As above, Alliance outpost. Had it stayed free of Alliance influence, it could have possibly been ignored. But tolerating your enemy's presence in your land is never going to stand. This isn't some huge revelation.

    2) It falls within what was once Lordaeron, which the Forsaken have made very clear they still believe to be theirs in death.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainArlong View Post
    More people were crying about Garrosh being a bad leader, so Blizzard caved to their demands and made him into a raid boss. They completely overlooked how he was a decent leader, just had problems with controlling his armies because of the corrupt members of the Horde.
    Literally everything in this specific quote is wrong. Metzen confirmed ages ago that Garrosh was never going to be the permanent Horde warchief. And he has been a shitty leader since the start, when he killed Cairne. He had like two redeeming moments in Cata, but was otherwise a turd who turned into a superturd in MoP.
    Last edited by DFu4ever; 2013-01-31 at 09:07 PM.

  18. #258
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    That would be biggest lore fail since Medan. So many possibilities, yet you want them to become... humans.
    Humans are normal. Be normal or die, don't go a different path. This is the way of absolute good.
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  19. #259
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFu4ever View Post
    I already addressed Gilneas. Southshore is in Lordaeron and has harbored Alliance since vanilla. This is literally not even a point you can argue against. If people chose to settle there while it acted as an Alliance safe haven in the remnants of Lordaeron, then they ultimately got turned to goo. Stromgarde is a ruin and the Horde only have a tiny outpost in the Hinterlands. The Syndicate and Ogres are Stromgarde's actual problem, not the Forsaken...or even the Horde really.
    Yes ofcourse Southshore had Alliance citizens in it, it's part of the Alliance. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. The Forsaken have invaded those places, they are not a race defending themselves, they are in fact doing the exact opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by DFu4ever View Post
    Except, the Forsaken are technically defending Lordaeron. If something was a part of Lordaeron, then the Forsaken of Lordaeron have the best claim on it. South Shore would have probably been fine if it didn't act as an Alliance outpost. The Forsaken have no Forsaken-only influence in the Eastern Kingdoms that isn't contained within the borders of Lordaeron. (Gilneas, for the millionth time, is a Horde operation/one of Garrosh's numerous terrible ideas).
    Ofcourse they're defending it, Silverpine is still theirs. My point is that they've invaded every where within arms reach, destroying homes and committing genocide against their people. But all of sudden when the Alliance decided to counter attack, it's the Alliance that are for whatever reason bad guys in some stupid people's eyes.
    Lordaeron as a Kingdom does not exist anymore. There is no claim whatsoever via the idea of a kingdom. Neither do they live or lived there. So what claim do they have?
    Also you're being a hypocrite by saying the "Forsaken of Lordaeron have the best", meanwhile ignoring the living people who have been living there for years. You can't have it both ways.

    Stop with the Garrosh scape goating. Sylvanas hasn't argued against the fighting at all. She just dislikes Garrosh having control over her, which he evidently doesn't given all of the stunts Sylvanas has pulled. On top of this Sylvanas wanted to invade Gilneas for the Scythe of Elune.

    "The Dark Lady herself has mused that our conquest of Lordaeron may be the only way the Forsaken can find true satisfaction, and perhaps even relief."

    That totally sounds like somebody who doesn't want to fight. You can blame Garrosh all you want, but at the end of the day Sylvanas and the Forsaken want to fight and conquer.

    Quote Originally Posted by DFu4ever View Post
    Honestly? Did you not play in vanilla? It had a flight point. It brought Alliance players right into the Forsaken's backyard. Numerous wikis confirm it actually had an Alliance garrison according to the lore.

    Do you really wonder why it was smashed almost immediately?
    What does a Flight Point prove? That it could communicate with other Alliance towns and cities? Wow wiki quotes, you mean the one that says it has a small garrison there to defend it from the local hostiles. There is nothing of the sort that suggest it was a military target at all. Not to mention how it wasn't destroyed because of that in the first place and was instead destroyed so that the Forsaken could expand and settle there. So no it's another case of Forsaken aggression for the sake of expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by DFu4ever View Post
    Sigh. Two reasons the Forsaken had every right to attack SS.

    1) As above, Alliance outpost. Had it stayed free of Alliance influence, it could have possibly been ignored. But tolerating your enemy's presence in your land is never going to stand. This isn't some huge revelation.

    2) It falls within what was once Lordaeron, which the Forsaken have made very clear they still believe to be theirs in death.
    You're first point as I pointed out is false. On top of this being neutral means nothing to the Forsaken or Horde eg. Gilneas.
    Your second point isn't a right. It's a belief and an opinion.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    "The Dark Lady herself has mused that our conquest of Lordaeron may be the only way the Forsaken can find true satisfaction, and perhaps even relief."
    Since you basically handwaved my points away I don't feel the need to rehash them again.

    But I do find your use of this quote curious, since it states that securing Lordaeron would bring relief to the Forsaken. That doesn't sound like a quote from someone who plans to launch further wars of conquest. It sounds like someone trying secure their home.

    EDIT: Also, Sylvanas has argued against Garrosh's terrible ideas. She was against attacking Theramore because it would likely lead to even more Alliance invading her territory. Obviously she was ignored.
    Last edited by DFu4ever; 2013-01-31 at 10:11 PM.

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