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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    Perhaps I should have said "human" aggression, rather than Alliance.

    Either way, the fact is most of the world thinks the Forsaken are no better than the Scourge. They have to defend themselves.
    Yeah that's what the playerbase says but...

    There's nothing in the lore to support that assertion.

    Literally.

    EDIT:

    I mean, the Forsaken race page on the wow website SAYS they get mistrusted or mistreated or whatever...

    but we've seen nothing to the effect ingame or in the lore.

    Ever.
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    Perhaps I should have said "human" aggression, rather than Alliance.

    Either way, the fact is most of the world thinks the Forsaken are no better than the Scourge. They have to defend themselves.
    That's not really true, at all. There are two types of Forsaken, one that cling to vengeance and keep trying to find it where ever they can, even the slightest "trespass", and then there are those whom have seen justice done, with the Lich King defeated, and wish to move on. You gather that from the lore. You also gather than the latter are a minority and no longer affiliated with Undercity, but rather neutral.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    I don't see a point. Maiev was thoroughly destroyed by Knaak and Shandris would just fall into the same problems Tyrande did. Apparently cdevs say someone in the Alliance is going to die during the siege of orgrimmar. I can only assume it will be Tyrande.
    I like to imagine Knaak as not being canon. Just like I like to dream that she'll grow so infuriated with being essentially betrayed by Tyrande over the Highborne issue that she'll turn down Illidan's path and become a Demon Hunter out of irony, heralding in a new era of Night Elven superiority and replacing the Wardens.

    But that's just me and my unrealistic dreams.

    I don't think Tyrande dying would have any sort of worthwhile impact, unless Blizzard also follows it up by finally bringing back Malfurion as an Alliance aligned character, instead of some useless neutral druid.
    You tried too hard and now your post is shit. Never try too hard, the gamble isn't worth it. -Boubouille

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    cause when I read Gallywix's story it seemed to me he got into power not cause he was richer than the last guy but because he'd outplayed him.
    he outplayed maldy and took everything he ever owned except for his daughter, who now despises old gally lol

    goblin society works in a pretty simple way: if he's paying, you're serving. it's all pretty much corporatist. your social standing depends on how many people you can buy. if you can buy everybody, you are the boss.

    trade princes are not elected. the position isn't hereditary either. they have do to whatever it takes and use all the resources they have to get all the power and reach the top. considering goblin society is 100% based on commerce and gold, and that the leader is called the "trade" prince, what do you think is the ultimate expression of goblin power? that's right: money!

    it's not stated directly anywhere that the trade prince is the richest guy, but the trade prince is the most powerful guy who killed and schemed his way to the top. considering goblin power = money, than the trade prince IS the richest guy.

    though sometimes I wish the new trade prince were gallywix's dad. he'd lose his position within the week, but it would have been funny
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  5. #85
    If other races can't be raisen into undeath by Valkyrs then how did my Tauren become a Death Knight?

  6. #86
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    The Forsaken in general need a redemption story eventually
    No.

    Stop right there.

    Fuck that shit.

    The forsaken do not need to be 'redeemed' they just need to MAKE SENSE.
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    Perhaps I should have said "human" aggression, rather than Alliance.

    Either way, the fact is most of the world thinks the Forsaken are no better than the Scourge. They have to defend themselves.
    Well, how are the Forsaken better than the Scourge? The things they do are every bit as vile. The only differences are an alliance of convenience with the Horde and the lack of a plague/resurrection kind of deal. Given half a chance, the Forsaken would copy the Scourge's war path into any Alliance territory - and probably Horde territory if they thought they could get away with it.

    The free will resurrection thing feels out of place because the Forsaken are assholes anyway. Their actions suggest that they want to distance themselves from the Scourge in action, but it's as if they think the removal of free will was the only bad thing that the Scourge did.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    he outplayed maldy and took everything he ever owned except for his daughter, who now despises old gally lol

    goblin society works in a pretty simple way: if he's paying, you're serving. it's all pretty much corporatist. your social standing depends on how many people you can buy. if you can buy everybody, you are the boss.

    trade princes are not elected. the position isn't hereditary either. they have do to whatever it takes and use all the resources they have to get all the power and reach the top. considering goblin society is 100% based on commerce and gold, and that the leader is called the "trade" prince, what do you think is the ultimate expression of goblin power? that's right: money!

    it's not stated directly anywhere that the trade prince is the richest guy, but the trade prince is the most powerful guy who killed and schemed his way to the top. considering goblin power = money, than the trade prince IS the richest guy.

    though sometimes I wish the new trade prince were gallywix's dad. he'd lose his position within the week, but it would have been funny
    So you're making it up. Nice job fact checker.

    There are forms of power outside flat money, and your rational for why Thrall didn't kill Gallywix doesn't fly, how the hell does he know Jastor won't sell the cartel to the Twilights the second Thrall's out of sight?
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    No.

    Stop right there.

    Fuck that shit.

    The forsaken do not need to be 'redeemed' they just need to MAKE SENSE.
    And they currently don't make sense as part of the Alliance or Horde. They'll be stuck there as an alliance of convenience forever and that's going to get stagnant. Especially when every single threat of action taken against them for their actions amounts to nothing.

    Having the Forsaken run around like they don't have to answer to anyone or act within the ideals of the Horde doesn't make sense. Especially when Garrosh was meant to be a fearsome leader who would have just beat her into line.

    The Forsaken haven't "made sense" for a long time now.
    Last edited by Eats Compost; 2013-01-30 at 01:10 AM.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by lunchbox2042 View Post
    If other races can't be raisen into undeath by Valkyrs then how did my Tauren become a Death Knight?
    Basically the Val'kyr were stronger when working for Arthas (hence why the one in ICC could raise the belf and dwarf and reraise the one undead guy), and he had non-val'kyr necromancers working for him too.

    Which... technically sylvanas could just train some of -those-? Out of current forsaken? I don't know why the Val'kyr are even necessary.
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soratrox View Post
    Rightfully hers because the Forsaken is the largest population of Lordaeron Humans on Azeroth, to quote her in Silverpine:
    That's pretty awful logic. The people of Southshore call it their home, so why is that the Forsaken who don't live there have a claim to it? The fact is that they don't. There is no Kingdom of Lordaeron as it's dead so there's no logic in calling Southshore the Forsaken's by calling it Lordaeron's. There is no logic in calling a town that the Forsaken do not live in their because of some defunct Kingdom.

    That isn't rightful at all. Those people live there. The Forsaken can march in there and take it as their own which isn't right on a moral ground, but it's war so nothing further can be said. But Southshore is no shape or form rightfully the Forsaken's. The quote means bugger all because it never was the Forsaken's land in life or death and it certainly can't be considered theirs because of a dead Kingdom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soratrox View Post
    As I said before, there's no arguing that she isn't ruthless. She's cold hearted and has no problem killing people, but she isn't the Lich King, she isn't just mindlessly taking over the world, she's purging the living from Lordaeron so that her people have secure borders.
    So what about the Alliance's safety? This is the root of the problem with arguing about Sylvanas living or dying. It means nothing if she can conjure up a reason to justify her actions against the Alliance. because the fact it isn't just at all from the Alliance perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soratrox View Post
    The Alliance don't move against her because right now they have much bigger problems. While Southshore and Hillsbrad are 'Alliance', they aren't actually part of the Alliance proper, they're small fragments of the former kingdom of Lordaeron that avoided the plague and remained alone but supported at a distance by the Alliance. The only true Alliance kingdom that's been attacked is Gilneas, and frankly there just aren't enough forces to spare to send a real military to fight for Gilneas. Especially considering that the Alliance is already fighting back via the efforts of Crowley, who was left behind with the Gilnean Liberation Front to fight a guerrilla war against the Forsaken.
    What?! Southshore is/was a part of the Alliance there is no two ways about it. On top of this you can't just call them not a real member and then claim Gilneas which only recently rejoined a real member when the fact is that it essentially betrayed the Alliance and only recently crawled back to them.
    Ofcourse the Alliance has troops to spare towards the EK's front. So far all we've seen on Pandaria for the most part have been Humans. Considering they are the most populace race amongst all the playable races coupled with the stable support of the Dwarves there's no reason why they can't spare troops on a front that's on their own door step.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    And they currently don't make sense as part of the Alliance or Horde. They'll be stuck there as an alliance of convenience forever and that's going to get stagnant. Especially when every single threat of action taken against them for their actions amounts to nothing.

    Having the Forsaken run around like they don't have to answer to anyone or act within the ideals of the Horde doesn't make sense. Especially when Garrosh was meant to be a fearsome leader who would have just beat her into line.
    1. There are ways to have them make sense WITHOUT them being 'redeemed' though. As in BE SMART EVIL rather than "cackling mustache twirling look at me kidnap this kitten" evil.


    2. So we don't have them run around like they don't have to answer to anyone! we have them act like nutty chemists that delight in vivisecting the non-alliance enemies like the burning legion or old gods or whatever and be generally terrible people to THEM, but don't have them nuke alliance orphanages and then shrug and never get called out on it by the Horde.
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Soratrox View Post
    I don't think Tyrande dying would have any sort of worthwhile impact, unless Blizzard also follows it up by finally bringing back Malfurion as an Alliance aligned character, instead of some useless neutral druid.
    Malfurion needs to go back to sleep. I for one, am sick and tired of endlessly equivocating "Night Elf" with "Druid" and all the improper and largely negative stereotypes that come out of it, like the Treehugger rubbish. the *last* thing Night Elves need is a Druid leading them. With that said, no, tyrande's death wouldn't have an impact at all. They've denigrated her to uselessness as it is. Killing her off would just be for fun, cause "someone had to die in SoO" just like shitting on the Night Elves in the story came about because "someone had to get shat upon". It could've easily been humanity with Sylvanas, but the Forsaken were for the most part only hitting tactically and not looking to take over the world.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Actually i don't see any successor to her. Lilian Voss is probably dead and that leaves Nathanos Marris as the only semi-prominent forsaken. And he didn't really do much in WoW.
    And the forsaken are already pretty emo.. i don't see how them being even more lost would make a better story. I think it's pretty neat that they are actually doing something now and not just sit around and mope like before the Lich king died.
    I don't know where you see good storytelling possibilities. Yes the alliance would rejoice because a powerful enemy would have died but aside from that not much would change.
    There's no reason why a council of some sort could not formed. Characters also don't need masses of pre-WoW lore to become respectable leaders. The Blood Elves currently prove this point and I would also be willing to bet they've learned from their mistakes in handling them.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by lunchbox2042 View Post
    If other races can't be raisen into undeath by Valkyrs then how did my Tauren become a Death Knight?
    Necromancy and the Lich King, like my Night Elf Death knight, and everyone elses' Death Knight, including Worgen Death Knights which are fully immune to "undeath" by weaker means.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    1. There are ways to have them make sense WITHOUT them being 'redeemed' though. As in BE SMART EVIL rather than "cackling mustache twirling look at me kidnap this kitten" evil.
    The issue is that they've always been moustache-twirling villains. They've never even so much as tried to hide any of their actions. What happens in SFK is particularly appalling - apparently, one of Garrosh's higher-ups is so stupid that he just buys an incredibly poor lie by the Forsaken there, oblivious to the fact that there's full-strength plague all around him. It's hair-pullingly frustrating to see the Forsaken show off their dickery like a prize animal to this kind and for him to just sit there saying "durrrrrr".

    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    2. So we don't have them run around like they don't have to answer to anyone! we have them act like nutty chemists that delight in vivisecting the non-alliance enemies like the burning legion or old gods or whatever and be generally terrible people to THEM, but don't have them nuke alliance orphanages and then shrug and never get called out on it by the Horde.
    That's what I meant by "redemption". I don't think anyone's ever cared about what anyone does to the Legion or similar foes. You could open a pit lord's stomach while it's still alive, fill it with live tigers and dynamite, set a 5-minute fuse and walk away and everyone in the Argent Crusade would praise you as a hero of the Light. Whether or not you're "evil" in the WoW universe pretty much comes down to what you do to other non-evil beings and why. You can be an asshole to Sargeras all you like, but nobody will care.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    The issue is that they've always been moustache-twirling villains. They've never even so much as tried to hide any of their actions. What happens in SFK is particularly appalling - apparently, one of Garrosh's higher-ups is so stupid that he just buys an incredibly poor lie by the Forsaken there, oblivious to the fact that there's full-strength plague all around him. It's hair-pullingly frustrating to see the Forsaken show off their dickery like a prize animal to this kind and for him to just sit there saying "durrrrrr".

    2. So we don't have them run around like they don't have to answer to anyone! we have them act like nutty chemists that delight in vivisecting the non-alliance enemies like the burning legion or old gods or whatever and be generally terrible people to THEM, but don't have them nuke alliance orphanages and then shrug and never get called out on it by the Horde.
    That's what I meant by "redemption". I don't think anyone's ever cared about what anyone does to the Legion or similar foes. You could open a pit lord's stomach while it's still alive, fill it with live tigers and dynamite, set a 5-minute fuse and walk away and everyone in the Argent Crusade would praise you as a hero of the Light. Whether or not you're "evil" in the WoW universe pretty much comes down to what you do to other non-evil beings and why.[/QUOTE]

    1. yeah that's my point, that needs to stop.

    2. Yeah sorry I associate 'redemption' with the Lady Liadrin brand of it. She sits around all day now talking about how -bad- she used to be and how they need to change their ways *retch*

    redemption means actually giving a care about the people you used to screw over, I don't think the Forsaken should ever do more than pay lip service... but they should do it CONVINCINGLY.
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    2. Yeah sorry I associate 'redemption' with the Lady Liadrin brand of it. She sits around all day now talking about how -bad- she used to be and how they need to change their ways *retch*

    redemption means actually giving a care about the people you used to screw over, I don't think the Forsaken should ever do more than pay lip service... but they should do it CONVINCINGLY.
    Well, the Elves do have a different culture to the Forsaken. They're very proud and noble, and it's not good for your status as being a "noble" race when you imprison the physical embodiment of all that is good and start eating its brains. It's only the simultaneous arrogance of Elves in general that let them ignore that in the first place.

    In the case of Elves, doing something like that is a hit to their self-image. They like beautiful, orderly, formal things. They don't want to be cruel savages, but that's what they fell to, and it was something that they wanted to come back from. Perhaps not as extremely as Liadrin did, but I certainly expect them to regret the whole Naaru business.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    So you're making it up. Nice job fact checker.
    where did I ever say I made it up?

    from the RPG book (no longer necessarily canon, but parts of it were used in gallywix's story, so it may be true) - " The goblins don’t elect their trade princes, nor are the positions hereditary; the trade princes killed, blackmailed and schemed their way to the top."

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/lor...ory/gallywix/1 - "You don’t become trade prince by making empty threats. The spot ain’t hereditary like that cushy king job those pink-skinned humans get."

    "Gallywix became trade prince by blowing up, selling out, or just selling everyone he knew"

    "It’s the goblin way! Supply and demand! Deal with it!"

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/lor...wix/2#readmode - "By the time Pop’s deadline rolled around, half of the businesses on the block had joined my Copper Street Conglomerate."

    "That was a little soft. But remember, I was ten, genius. I made my first million macaroons right around the time that you caught the sklaz from swimming through the toxic oil slick around Garzak Oatburner’s Healthy Foods factory."

    "Besides, he was my pop. And I take care of things that are mine."

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/lor...wix/3#readmode - "Years passed. I’m not gonna give you a detailed receipt of all the businesses I took over, started, sold, or destroyed. I won: that’s all. I won everything I wanted."

    "If you move big, fast, and hard enough to carve yourself a place in the world, everyone else will bend over backwards to give you everything you want just for the thrill of being part of your success."

    "Back during the Second War, I was Kezan’s rising star. President of the massive Copper Street Conglomerate, advisor to the Tinkers’ Union, big goblin in the Trade Coalition, and the second-richest guy in the Bilgewater Cartel. Trade Prince Maldy decided he wanted to meet his possible competition, so he sent me an invitation to his daughter’s birthday party at his manor."

    "The moguls and financiers of Bilgewater had decided they wanted a younger, more aggressive trade prince in Maldy’s place. Guess who."

    "Every angle was covered, every palm greased. "

    to maldy - "As of sunset today, I own a majority of your holdings in the Trade Coalition through a hundred false fronts and small businesses. You could check, but I’ve bought off your administration, so you don’t wanna trust them. I own your security forces. I stole the land under your house. And you rented those rings from one of my shops. You’re done, Maldy. You’re done, and everyone knows it."

    "The guests…my guests…roared their approval, rushing forward to hammer my back and congratulate me while slipping business cards and bribes into my pockets."

    see? gallywix is telling the story of how he became the trade prince, and "ninety ten" percent of it is about money, paying the right people, being the second richest guy in the cartel and taking everything the richest guy has (which means he became the richest guy). the rest is about owning everything.

    I didn't make anything up.

    the deal with good storytelling is that telling you things directly is boring. a good story makes you understand it through reading between the lines rather than telling you exactly how things work. blizzard never said that the trade prince is the richest guy directly, but they did say everything else that points towards it. the whole story converges on money for a reason: because for goblins, money is power. and the trade prince is the most powerful goblin.
    Last edited by checking facts; 2013-01-30 at 01:30 AM.
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  20. #100
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    Well, the Elves do have a different culture to the Forsaken. They're very proud and noble, and it's not good for your status as being a "noble" race when you imprison the physical embodiment of all that is good and start eating its brains. It's only the simultaneous arrogance of Elves in general that let them ignore that in the first place.

    In the case of Elves, doing something like that is a hit to their self-image. They like beautiful, orderly, formal things. They don't want to be cruel savages, but that's what they fell to, and it was something that they wanted to come back from. Perhaps not as extremely as Liadrin did, but I certainly expect them to regret the whole Naaru business.
    To heck with that I like my elves as jackasses that had to have their obligation to lothar brought up before they'd even help with the orcs.

    I was never happy with the ending of TBC and I much liked the more pragmatic direction Blood Elf culture was taking, I would've loved for them to continue down that, not regress

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-29 at 07:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    where did I ever say I made it up?

    see? gallywix is telling the story of how he became the trade prince, and "ninety ten" percent of it is about money, paying the right people, being the second richest guy in the cartel and taking everything the richest guy has (which means he became the richest guy). the rest is about owning everything.

    I didn't make anything up.

    the deal with good storytelling is that telling you things directly is boring. a good story makes you understand it through reading between the lines rather than telling you exactly how things work. blizzard never said that the trade prince is the richest guy directly, but they did say everything else that points towards it. the whole story converges on money for a reason: because for goblins, money is power. and the trade prince is the most powerful goblin.

    None of that states that the richest goblin is the one in charge! I've READ THE BLOODY STORY you don't need to quote it at me.

    I agree that the most POWERFUL goblin is likely in charge, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the richest! Recall there are tons more obsessed with explosions or with alchemy / science. And blackmail / killing are in there too as methods, not just bribery.


    AND AGAIN you're ignoring that cash wasn't even an issue in the case of Thrall putting Gallywix back in power. He could've killed Gallywix and given all his cash to Sassy or whatever, and Thrall had no reason to believe Gallywix wasn't lying through his teeth and wouldn't just re-enslave everyone, not join the Horde, and hook up with the twilights or black dragonflight.

    Your arguments are all inference.


    EDIT:

    IF ANYTHING the story proves that it's NOT just about who has more money, if Gallywix owned the majority it wouldn't have been necessary for him to even go to the party, he could've evicted maldy the moment the ink was dry. He had to make a showing to the other goblins to get their support.
    Last edited by Skytotem; 2013-01-30 at 01:42 AM.
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

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