Anyone else think it's weird to kill Garrosh but not do anything about Sylvanas?

[Justignoreme]

I was simply expanding on the same topic, I meant no offense.

none taken

he could never be a sexy female. he's an orc. muscles, muscle, muscle, flex lol

If Sylvanas was more skeletonised and decomposed rather than looking like an intact elf with deathly pale skin would she command the same fan following? I highly doubt it, look at the art for her. She's the most drawn and is almost entirely drawn as a pinup, rather than a decaying, deathly and scorned woman with a bow. I like that she's a strong female leader, she's the ONLY one in WoW, even though I really don't care for her methods at all. She is what Tyrande should've been. And while she got better, we got "Hush, Tyrande" and "Patience, Tyrande" in Cata and MoP, respectively.

---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 12:44 AM ----------

-What- Alliance aggression? Literally the most aggressive thing the Alliance had done to the Forsaken prior to Wotlk was -farm- in their general vicinity.

And mine, farm and mine.

[checking facts]

Trade Prince Gallywix yells: I'm your goblin, Thrall. What would you have of me?
Thrall grunts and thinks a moment on what to do with the Trade Prince.
Thrall yells: For now, you will remain the Trade Prince of the Bilgewater Cartel.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Jastor_Gallywix#Quests

You made this same post in another thread and never replied to this counterargument, would you care to so so now?

your argument does not contradict mine in any way.

[Skytotem]

none taken
If Sylvanas was more skeletonised and decomposed rather than looking like an intact elf with deathly pale skin would she command the same fan following? I highly doubt it, look at the art for her. She's the most drawn and is almost entirely drawn as a pinup, rather than a decaying, deathly and scorned woman with a bow. I like that she's a strong female leader, she's the ONLY one in WoW, even though I really don't care for her methods at all. She is what Tyrande should've been. And while she got better, we got "Hush, Tyrande" and "Patience, Tyrande" in Cata and MoP, respectively.

A strong female leader that's been beaten in literally every appearance she's made... I mean, no offense but her 'tactical prowess' is pretty much informed ability.

Her whole 'oh we'll raise these three guys and blackmail crowley with his daughter' thing really made no sense if the goal was to take gilneas... and this was after she walked into two or three ambushes costing her 'veteran troops'.

[Gelannerai]

1. Magic the gathering reference.

2. Dead.

3. Hates being undead and wouldn't support a group spreading undeath.

1. True, but we already have plenty of those as is.

2. Is she really confirmed dead? Her fate always seemed kind of open-ended, unless there's something more for her post-Scholo that I haven't seen. 'Sides, even if she did really kick, she's Forsaken. They can just sew her back together.

3. Well, maybe under her the Forsaken would be a bit tamer in that regard.

[Skytotem]

thrall doesn't get to choose who's the trade prince.

Thrall yells: For now, you will remain the Trade Prince of the Bilgewater Cartel.

your argument does not contradict mine in any way.

How's that now?

Thrall's killed people on the battlefield before, smashed traitor's heads open with the doomhammer... I don't see why it would've been so unthinkable to kill Gallywix and put Sassy in charge, hell, even Grapplehammer would've been okay.

[Yriel]

Anyway I actually feel Sylvanas' death can only add to both the Alliance and Horde story. The Alliance get their justice of which ofcourse will make the Worgen delighted. But on the other hand it opens a new door for Forsaken story development. The Forsaken were far better story wise pre-Cata and even Wrath where they were a lost people who didn't have a lot of ambition aside from revenge against Arthas and I think it made for some great story telling. Remove Sylvanas from the picture and imagine the new story arcs it would open up due to how lost they would feel having their lord and saviour die.

Actually i don't see any successor to her. Lilian Voss is probably dead and that leaves Nathanos Marris as the only semi-prominent forsaken. And he didn't really do much in WoW.
And the forsaken are already pretty emo.. i don't see how them being even more lost would make a better story. I think it's pretty neat that they are actually doing something now and not just sit around and mope like before the Lich king died.
I don't know where you see good storytelling possibilities. Yes the alliance would rejoice because a powerful enemy would have died but aside from that not much would change.

[Hitei]

none taken
If Sylvanas was more skeletonised and decomposed rather than looking like an intact elf with deathly pale skin would she command the same fan following? I highly doubt it, look at the art for her. She's the most drawn and is almost entirely drawn as a pinup, rather than a decaying, deathly and scorned woman with a bow. I like that she's a strong female leader, she's the ONLY one in WoW, even though I really don't care for her methods at all. She is what Tyrande should've been. And while she got better, we got "Hush, Tyrande" and "Patience, Tyrande" in Cata and MoP, respectively.

I actually like what MoP has done with Tyrande.
She may get hushed down by Varian, but having her be an impatient prowling warrior eager to spill orc blood is a hell of a lot better than her being a priest standing around in a temple whining about her sleeping boyfriend.

But honestly Tyrande should have been killed off years ago and replaced by Maiev or Shandris.

[Justignoreme]

A strong female leader that's been beaten in literally every appearance she's made... I mean, no offense but her 'tactical prowess' is pretty much informed ability.

Her whole 'oh we'll raise these three guys and blackmail crowley with his daughter' thing really made no sense if the goal was to take gilneas... and this was after she walked into two or three ambushes costing her 'veteran troops'.

I never said she had tactical prowess. She's a strong leader though, even if she's not a brilliant tactician (no existent in WoW) or even particularly fiercesome and adept in combat. She might not be the best but at least shes out there on the frontline *fighting*. Where was Tyrande in Ashenvale? She should've been scouring the forest of Orcs and decorating the trees with their entrails. Even her outfit shows her role. yes, she's a priestess, but she's also a warrior. She's not shown in the battle garb of a sentinel ready to fight, hair in a braid and glaive in hand, no, she's shown in the gown of a priestess doing ceremonies and as far from battle as can be. That's how she's always seen. Sylvanas is not the case, she is dressed in the armour of a ranger. Neither is Varian or Garrosh for that matter. Even Gelbin is in battle gear. It's a digression but Sylvanas, sex appeal aside, is a strong role. One I suppose she gets because she's undead.

[Zaelsino]

Conflict in the EK just isn't a story they want to focus on right now I suppose.

I don't doubt that she'll suffer some pretty big losses when the time comes, but eh... I still can't see her dying.

[checking facts]

How's that now?

Thrall's killed people on the battlefield before, smashed traitor's heads open with the doomhammer... I don't see why it would've been so unthinkable to kill Gallywix and put Sassy in charge, hell, even Grapplehammer would've been okay.

I think you need to work on your reading comprehention.

what I said is that thrall could have taken gallywix down, but he couldn't choose gallywix's successor. it would just be the new richest goblin. it could be someone worse. someone who would sell the bilgewater cartel to the twilight cult.

sassy is not that rich. the player was richer than her at level 1. grapplehammer is not that rich either. neither one of them would be the trade prince.

[Skytotem]

Actually i don't see any successor to her. Lilian Voss is probably dead and that leaves Nathanos Marris as the only semi-prominent forsaken. And he didn't really do much in WoW.
And the forsaken are already pretty emo.. i don't see how them being even more lost would make a better story. I think it's pretty neat that they are actually doing something now and not just sit around and mope like before the Lich king died.
I don't know where you see good storytelling possibilities. Yes the alliance would rejoice because a powerful enemy would have died but aside from that not much would change.

I never saw the Forsaken as Emo, all of them seemed like sociopaths that ran around talking abut how awesome it is to drink orphan tears and how jealous they were that the player got to go out and murder folks, outside tirisfal there aren't even that many that are all that caught up on being undead.

[Justignoreme]

But honestly Tyrande should have been killed off years ago and replaced by Maiev or Shandris.

I don't see a point. Maiev was thoroughly destroyed by Knaak and Shandris would just fall into the same problems Tyrande did. Apparently cdevs say someone in the Alliance is going to die during the siege of orgrimmar. I can only assume it will be Tyrande.

[Skytotem]

I think you need to work on your reading comprehention.

what I said is that thrall could have taken gallywix down, but he couldn't choose gallywix's successor. it would just be the new richest goblin. it could be someone worse. someone who would sell the bilgewater cartel to the twilight cult.

sassy is not that rich. the player was richer than her at level 1. grapplehammer is not that rich either. neither one of them would be the trade prince.

Thrall could give Sassy some cash... I mean, Gallywix -did- take money from all the goblins and with him dead and everyone else in the cartel having given their money to him...

GEE I WONDER WHO WOULD BE WEALTHIEST?

Also, do we have a source on exactly who gets to be trade prince? Where's it say it's got to be the richest and not just a position hat you maneuver yourself into, cause when I read Gallywix's story it seemed to me he got into power not cause he was richer than the last guy but because he'd outplayed him.

[stomination]

Garrosh can be replaced by another Horde member.

If Sylvanas is to die then the Forsaken would have to be utterly conquered which would lead to the horde losing a good grasp on part of the Eastern Kingdoms. The Forsaken also appreciate Sylvanas and look more to her for guidance. If it was ever found out that an ally allowed the Alliance to kill Sylvanas then the Forsaken would reach for revenge.

[jbombard]

I would love for them to make Undead a 3rd faction.
They could change it so you can choose from other races, not only human undead.

Really Undead are not loyal to the Horde, they are loyal to themselves only and being part of the Horde is just a necessary evil as they are not strong enough to stand alone.
But what if they were strong enough to stand alone, what if they succeeded in making a plague to convert all races to undead. Seems like it would be a more interesting narrative.

[Skytotem]

Garrosh can be replaced by another Horde member.

If Sylvanas is to die then the Forsaken would have to be utterly conquered which would lead to the horde losing a good grasp on part of the Eastern Kingdoms. The Forsaken also appreciate Sylvanas and look more to her for guidance. If it was ever found out that an ally allowed the Alliance to kill Sylvanas then the Forsaken would reach for revenge.

Okay that's mingling gameplay mechanics and lore, it doesn't really make sense as a coherent argument.

1. It does not follow that sylvanas's death -after- the siege of orgrimmar would automatically result in the defeat of the forsaken.

2. It doesn't have to be the Horde that even kills her

3. She doesn't even have to die! There just needs to be a viable explanation for why, after the siege of Orgrimmar, the rest of the Horde doesn't just hang the forsaken out to dry for being evil. (As much as people love to say they just want to be left alone... they've been WAY too aggressive for that and we have no reason to think the Alliance would've gone after them if they hadn't ATTACKED THE ALLIANCE FIRST)

[Eats Compost]

She's always been a fundamentally evil character. She just does evil things. Wanting to create a plague to wipe out the living, which has been the Forsaken's stated goal since vanilla? Testing on live subjects at every given chance? That stunt she pulled with Koltira? Hell, Forsaken themselves have attested to her evil. There are Forsaken who have gone and joined the Argent Dawn/Crusade for that very reason; being very uncomfortable with what she's doing.

The whole "Sylvanas doesn't mind control" thing was a blue post backpedal, too. The in-game representations of the process of creating new Forsaken contradicted eachother heavily, and Sylvanas has too much of a fan following for her ever to be made to "cross the line", so to speak. I doubt she'd have the same following if she weren't a skimpily-clad elf wearing combat stilettos, which makes this whole situation all the more disappointing. She's a toxic character long overdue for backlash, yet the entirety of the backlash against her amounts to "Garrosh" calling her a bitch once. The Kor'kron occupation of Undercity amounted to nothing, and so did Garrosh's threats.

The Forsaken in general need a redemption story eventually, and that story has to involve taking down Sylvanas. You might call it overkill to dispose of two Horde faction leaders, but that's Blizzard's problem. They went and made Garrosh go over the edge when Sylvanas was already an issue. Of course, she would be replaced, and there are candidates for this - one prime candidate is Koltira, who (if he resists whatever the hell Sylvanas is doing to him) would likely feel quite vengeful towards her.

[Itisamuh]

-What- Alliance aggression? Literally the most aggressive thing the Alliance had done to the Forsaken prior to Wotlk was -farm- in their general vicinity.

Perhaps I should have said "human" aggression, rather than Alliance.

Either way, the fact is most of the world thinks the Forsaken are no better than the Scourge. They have to defend themselves.

[Justignoreme]

But what if they were strong enough to stand alone, what if they succeeded in making a plague to convert all races to undead. Seems like it would be a more interesting narrative.

They never looked to develop that, making the Forsaken become literally Scourge 2.0 would be a terrible pathway, and there is absolutely no justification Sylvanas could ever have for it.

[Skytotem]

Perhaps I should have said "human" aggression, rather than Alliance.

Either way, the fact is most of the world thinks the Forsaken are no better than the Scourge. They have to defend themselves.

Yeah that's what the playerbase says but...

There's nothing in the lore to support that assertion.

Literally.

EDIT:

I mean, the Forsaken race page on the wow website SAYS they get mistrusted or mistreated or whatever...

but we've seen nothing to the effect ingame or in the lore.

Ever.