Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1
    The Lightbringer bergmann620's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Stow, Ohio
    Posts
    3,705

    More content and better scale, aka 'Bring Back Massive'.

    I would like to see the heroic/regular difficulty mentality go away entirely.

    Instead, move to a system by which difficulty is scaled by the number of people.

    The normal dungeon group size would default to 10 people, like the classic level 60 dungeons started out. Encounters could be designed primarily around one tank and one healer, to drastically shorten queue's. The 'heroic' version of any dungeon would simply cap the group at 5 people.

    I would like to see the same thing happen with raiding as well- normal raids of 20/40 and heroic raids of 15/30.

    I also think a marginally larger default raid size would be a godsend, as we can't take one of every class in a ten-man, or one of every spec in a twenty-five man.

    Further, the developers would only need to develop and tune one version of each dungeon, and two versions of each raid (and even then, the raids would be MUCH easier to scale). Further still, a 15-man minimum raid size would allow much more dynamic fights without needing gimmicks to make up for a missing tank or healer.

    In all,
    -More bosses, rather than more versions of bosses.
    -Better scaling in raids.
    -More dynamic battles and encounter designs.
    -Faster dungeon queues for normal dungeons.
    -Allowance for more specs/classes in a given dungeon/raid.

    The biggest downside I could foresee would be the guild drama resulting from a guild progressing from normal raiding to heroic. I think this would largely be diminished by a more consistent content schedule arising from reduction in developmental effort per encounter.

    The other potential downside would be the logistics of a 40-man raid. I am just guessing here, but I have to imagine the number of 25-man normal guilds has to be pretty low, as would the number of 40-man normal guilds. Of course, this could be alleviated by one additional raid tier, maybe called 'LFR', which used the 40-man size. 30-man could then be reserved for 'normals' and the current 25-man raid would be 'heroic'.
    Life: bergmannity.com/ | Gaming: indignantgoat.com/
    XBL: Indignant Goat | BattleTag: IndiGoat#1288 | SteamID: Indignant Goat

  2. #2
    This would 'cause way more problems than it would solve. A big definite "NO" from me on this idea. WoW's not the same game you played in Classic anymore. If it's going to thrive for years to come it has to cater more toward the majorities, and what the majority of the players seem to be happy with is relatively easy to slightly challenging raid encounters.

    There is a reason most of the 25man guilds died when loot became standardized between the difficulties. 10man mode is simply easier to manage and, in my opinion, more fun. More people doesn't equal more fun. It's the people you bring to the raid. In my opinion, having to deal with an additional 15 people being on time to your raid, with flasks, potions and food, who know the encounter and have the gear and skill level to complete it is just way too much stress for most people. That's why most will always opt to do 10s over 25s unless 25s give larger gear incentive.

    And you want 40man raiding to come back? That is insane. Those were some of the worst times in raid-composing that wow has ever seen. Everyone talks about how fond they are of Classic. All I can remember is how much of a pain in the ass it was to get 40 people geared with fire resist gear, who also knew the fight and didn't suck.

    Wow's just a different beast now. That doesn't make it a bad game, it makes it a smarter game. If you want WoW to be around a long, long time, you need to let go of the archaic, medieval mindset the game used to have. There are reasons these features (40man raids) were taken out. There is a a REASON a lot of people prefer 10 mans over 25s.

    I do agree tiers need more bosses. T15 excites me for this very reason. I do agree encounters can be more dynamic. I don't see a legitimate reason to bring one or more of every single type of spec and class. Bring what you need for raid buffs and utility. That's all you need.

  3. #3
    What the guy above me said. It is just a BAD idea.

    You have multiple different raid sizes that would create more work for blizzard. Personally Keep it with 10/25 divide, give 25mans some other incentive to get them into the raid (which 5.2 appears to try)

    I enjoyed 40man as it was the main raiding at the time, but when we did our 20man ZG/aq20 runs I enjoyed those more (even our 15man UBRS runs we did with alts were fun!)

    In TBC I had a lot of fun doing 10man Kara and ZA and in wrath some of the most fun I had was doing 10man ulduar with my mates over our 25man run with the rest of the guild.

  4. #4
    Over 9000! Baar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Northern Michigan
    Posts
    9,218
    Quote Originally Posted by bergmann620 View Post
    I would like to see the heroic/regular difficulty mentality go away entirely.

    Instead, move to a system by which difficulty is scaled by the number of people.

    The normal dungeon group size would default to 10 people, like the classic level 60 dungeons started out. Encounters could be designed primarily around one tank and one healer, to drastically shorten queue's. The 'heroic' version of any dungeon would simply cap the group at 5 people.

    I would like to see the same thing happen with raiding as well- normal raids of 20/40 and heroic raids of 15/30.

    I also think a marginally larger default raid size would be a godsend, as we can't take one of every class in a ten-man, or one of every spec in a twenty-five man.

    Further, the developers would only need to develop and tune one version of each dungeon, and two versions of each raid (and even then, the raids would be MUCH easier to scale). Further still, a 15-man minimum raid size would allow much more dynamic fights without needing gimmicks to make up for a missing tank or healer.

    In all,
    -More bosses, rather than more versions of bosses.
    -Better scaling in raids.
    -More dynamic battles and encounter designs.
    -Faster dungeon queues for normal dungeons.
    -Allowance for more specs/classes in a given dungeon/raid.

    The biggest downside I could foresee would be the guild drama resulting from a guild progressing from normal raiding to heroic. I think this would largely be diminished by a more consistent content schedule arising from reduction in developmental effort per encounter.

    The other potential downside would be the logistics of a 40-man raid. I am just guessing here, but I have to imagine the number of 25-man normal guilds has to be pretty low, as would the number of 40-man normal guilds. Of course, this could be alleviated by one additional raid tier, maybe called 'LFR', which used the 40-man size. 30-man could then be reserved for 'normals' and the current 25-man raid would be 'heroic'.

    From what I remember all vanilla DUNGEONS were 5 mans. They did have some raids they later turned into dungeons. Those were 10/15-mans

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by slozon View Post
    From what I remember all vanilla DUNGEONS were 5 mans. They did have some raids they later turned into dungeons. Those were 10/15-mans
    All the dungeons were designed as 5-mans, but some of them allowed either 10 or 15 people to be in a group. Most took advantage of this because it made the dungeon way easier.

  6. #6
    You've never been a raid leader, have you OP? Dealing with people not showing, people showing up late, people making bad excuses for why they aren't on time or why they keep standing in fire. It's easy to be completely unassociated with the logistical effort of organising a raid and demanding bigger raid groups, but, for people whom have dealt with it, 25s are difficult enough, and content now, unlike in Classic where half the raid was AFK, demands everyone doing their part.

  7. #7
    Over 9000! Baar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Northern Michigan
    Posts
    9,218
    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    All the dungeons were designed as 5-mans, but some of them allowed either 10 or 15 people to be in a group. Most took advantage of this because it made the dungeon way easier.
    I'm pretty sure they were raids when release. Later turned into dungeons that you still still enter while in a raid.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by slozon View Post
    I'm pretty sure they were raids when release. Later turned into dungeons that you still still enter while in a raid.
    UBRS was a raid until Cata came out. All the bosses in it were actual bosses, not just 2 levels higher than max level.

  9. #9
    Most heroic raiders would agree with you, but we are a minority in this game, and doing raid bosses for less than 1% of the player base isn't really good return on investment for the developers.

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer bergmann620's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Stow, Ohio
    Posts
    3,705
    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    This would 'cause way more problems than it would solve. A big definite "NO" from me on this idea. WoW's not the same game you played in Classic anymore. If it's going to thrive for years to come it has to cater more toward the majorities, and what the majority of the players seem to be happy with is relatively easy to slightly challenging raid encounters.
    Nothing I proposed affects the relative difficulty of raid encounters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    There is a reason most of the 25man guilds died when loot became standardized between the difficulties. 10man mode is simply easier to manage and, in my opinion, more fun. More people doesn't equal more fun. It's the people you bring to the raid. In my opinion, having to deal with an additional 15 people being on time to your raid, with flasks, potions and food, who know the encounter and have the gear and skill level to complete it is just way too much stress for most people. That's why most will always opt to do 10s over 25s unless 25s give larger gear incentive.
    I'm not saying smaller raids aren't easier to manage. Two-man raids would be exceptionally easier to manage, and one-man raids easier still.

    I like 10-man raids better than 40's, but I would prefer 15's, as that would allow just a little bit more when it comes to encounter design and clas/spec variation.

    Your whole point, though, largely revolves around the idea that smaller = easier (mostly true), that people prefer easier (again, mostly true), and that easier = better (not gonna give you a true here). There is a place for 'easier' AND 'harder' in a game this big- and there already is, what with heroics and all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    And you want 40man raiding to come back? That is insane. Those were some of the worst times in raid-composing that wow has ever seen. Everyone talks about how fond they are of Classic. All I can remember is how much of a pain in the ass it was to get 40 people geared with fire resist gear, who also knew the fight and didn't suck.
    First, when was the last time you ground out resistance gear? Second, how many people are consistently raiding at this point that haven't done a run-through on LFR? Third, except for high-end guilds, when were the last 8-10 people in the raid any good? They were typically friends/family that were alright at best, but you could get them in, and they gave you some pew-pew until they bit some lava.

    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    Wow's just a different beast now. That doesn't make it a bad game, it makes it a smarter game. If you want WoW to be around a long, long time, you need to let go of the archaic, medieval mindset the game used to have. There are reasons these features (40man raids) were taken out. There is a a REASON a lot of people prefer 10 mans over 25s.
    There's also a lot more people that raid LFR than heroics. We should stop wasting development time on heroics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    I do agree tiers need more bosses. T15 excites me for this very reason. I do agree encounters can be more dynamic. I don't see a legitimate reason to bring one or more of every single type of spec and class. Bring what you need for raid buffs and utility. That's all you need.
    It's pretty funny to see a feedback loop in play. We homogenize buffs and utility because you can't get everything you used to need in a 10-man, then we say, "You can get all the raid buffs in a 10-man, so that's all you need."

    I'm not saying I want to see 33 different specs in every raid... But I think it would be cool if you could take at least one of each class to a raid.
    Life: bergmannity.com/ | Gaming: indignantgoat.com/
    XBL: Indignant Goat | BattleTag: IndiGoat#1288 | SteamID: Indignant Goat

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by slozon View Post
    I'm pretty sure they were raids when release. Later turned into dungeons that you still still enter while in a raid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    UBRS was a raid until Cata came out. All the bosses in it were actual bosses, not just 2 levels higher than max level.
    Not exactly.

    They were dungeons. It was not technically a raid, otherwise it would have required a "raid" to be set like every raid has up until 5.1 removed the requirement. It never did, you could enter solo or in a five man, and I had successfully done LBRS and UBRS in five-man comps back in vanilla. They designed it so they COULD be done in a raid format with up to 15 people, but it was not the intent. They were not actually "raids", they were still just dungeons.

  12. #12
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Twitch & Youtube
    Posts
    18,897
    MoP was a big step in the right direction from Cata in terms of massive and world.

    *Flying being restricted made players actually enjoy the world rather than looking down at treetops.
    *Hidden goodies and an achievement for finding them gave players a reason to hunt around all the nooks and crannies in Pandaria.
    *Rare spawn solo, 5-man, and raid mobs helped get players out into the world. And in the case of the raid bosses, also created a degree of WPvP.
    *Even if some were poorly designed, the dailies did serve their dual purpose of getting players into the world and giving more options for players at the level cap.

    There are some problems still, but from "CApital ciTy queue wAit" it's a huge step in the right direction.
    "You should only install Warlords on your master hard drive. They will never be slaves." - @CM_Lore

    I'm expecting 7.0 revealed at Blizzcon. They want yearly expansions after all. If they don't reveal it, I'll be happy as it means Quality is still before Quantity in Irving.

  13. #13
    Over 9000! Baar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Northern Michigan
    Posts
    9,218
    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    Not exactly.

    They were dungeons. It was not technically a raid, otherwise it would have required a "raid" to be set like every raid has up until 5.1 removed the requirement. It never did, you could enter solo or in a five man, and I had successfully done LBRS and UBRS in five-man comps back in vanilla. They designed it so they COULD be done in a raid format with up to 15 people, but it was not the intent. They were not actually "raids", they were still just dungeons.
    http://www.wowwiki.com/Upper_Blackrock_Spire
    Upper Blackrock Spire was originally the raid part of Blackrock Spire;


    UBRS was released as a raid. This was later tuned down so 5 people could complete it
    LBRS was always a 5 man
    Last edited by Baar; 2013-01-29 at 05:28 PM.

  14. #14
    The Lightbringer bergmann620's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Stow, Ohio
    Posts
    3,705
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    You have multiple different raid sizes that would create more work for blizzard. Personally Keep it with 10/25 divide, give 25mans some other incentive to get them into the raid (which 5.2 appears to try)
    We already have multiple raid sizes AND multiple difficulties. Essentially, each fight is tuned for 5 audiences. In my system, it would be tuned for 2 audiences, and everyone would see the full version of an encounter.

    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    I enjoyed 40man as it was the main raiding at the time, but when we did our 20man ZG/aq20 runs I enjoyed those more (even our 15man UBRS runs we did with alts were fun!)
    Personally, I think the 'ideal' raid size would be in the 15/20 range.

    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    In TBC I had a lot of fun doing 10man Kara and ZA and in wrath some of the most fun I had was doing 10man ulduar with my mates over our 25man run with the rest of the guild.
    Kara is probably my favorite raid in the history of WoW. Part of that was because it was different, though. It wasn't like every other raid out there.
    Life: bergmannity.com/ | Gaming: indignantgoat.com/
    XBL: Indignant Goat | BattleTag: IndiGoat#1288 | SteamID: Indignant Goat

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by slozon View Post
    http://www.wowwiki.com/Upper_Blackrock_Spire


    UBRS was released as a raid. This was later tuned down so 5 people could complete it
    LBRS was always a 5 man
    Yes, because Wowwiki, the place everyone abandoned for Wowpedia, is a the best bet for information. Not really.

    Fact remains, UBRS didn't require a raid to enter. You could, but it was not technically a raid. Green Portal = Raid, Blue Portal = Dungeon. That was the rule back in the day. UBRS was possible with 5-man, but it was ten times easier with 15. Even thinking about doing the whelp room with less was suicide, but that is why pretty much everyone skipped it anyways. The same went for BRD, which allowed up to 10 people to go, but most just did it 5-man.

  16. #16
    The Lightbringer bergmann620's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Stow, Ohio
    Posts
    3,705
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    You've never been a raid leader, have you OP? Dealing with people not showing, people showing up late, people making bad excuses for why they aren't on time or why they keep standing in fire. It's easy to be completely unassociated with the logistical effort of organising a raid and demanding bigger raid groups, but, for people whom have dealt with it, 25s are difficult enough, and content now, unlike in Classic where half the raid was AFK, demands everyone doing their part.
    I have been. Raid leader and GM in vanilla, part-time RL in TBC, full time in Wrath, just a raider in the last two.

    Part of what I miss about the older raids is that they allowed 40 people, but you could maintain decent progression with 5 A+'s, 10 A's, 10 B's, 10 C's and a couple D's. If you had a largish guild, you didn't have to exclude friends that were sub-optimal, because logistics was expected to be part of the challenge.

    As the expansions have progressed, a lot of the 'glue' guys that were core to the social aspect of a guild but maybe not hardcore as raiders have been marginalized.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-29 at 12:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    Yes, because Wowwiki, the place everyone abandoned for Wowpedia, is a the best bet for information. Not really.

    Fact remains, UBRS didn't require a raid to enter. You could, but it was not technically a raid. Green Portal = Raid, Blue Portal = Dungeon. That was the rule back in the day. UBRS was possible with 5-man, but it was ten times easier with 15. Even thinking about doing the whelp room with less was suicide, but that is why pretty much everyone skipped it anyways. The same went for BRD, which allowed up to 10 people to go, but most just did it 5-man.
    We used to have a blast at low levels taking a raid into BFD =)
    Life: bergmannity.com/ | Gaming: indignantgoat.com/
    XBL: Indignant Goat | BattleTag: IndiGoat#1288 | SteamID: Indignant Goat

  17. #17
    OP, you came in with your mind made up, and that's fine, but so far I'm not seeing many who are agreeing with you, nor can I see many who will agree with you.

    And stop "wasting" time on heroic raid content? That will single-handedly KILL the hardcore community, which, even though it's not the majority, is still a fairly large chunk of the raiding population. You're literally looking at 15% or more of raiding guilds that would quit with that one change alone.

    Your idea is just not good. There's a reason the changes were made in the first place, and there's a reason WoW is heading in the direction it is. Giving multiple, but set difficulties means people have options to choose how "harcore" they want to play WoW.

    I think you're also under the assumption that Blizzard would just be able to "scale" the fights so that adding one player to the raid adds a certain damage or health percentage to the boss.

    This can't work. All this would create would be situations where certain raid sizes would be the "optimal" or "most easy" way to defeat an encounter. This is largely due to the fact that adding a player to a raid doesn't just mean the boss dies slower or does more damage, it means certain mechanics will work differently. Certain numbers of classes will have different synergies than others.

    Ultimately, whether you want to accept this fact or not, this wouldn't result in Blizzard needing to create 1 raid difficulty and then scale it depending on x number of players. This would result in Blizzard have to design 31 different raid difficulties. (10 players all the way up to 40 players)

    It's just not gonna happen, bud. I'm sorry. I know there are some people who had a lot of fun with their 40 mans or 15 mans. But Blizzard's already commented on this topic several times. They LIKE the balance that comes from 10 players and that comes from 25. They have said in posts 15 players, while they like the concept, just wouldn't work because it forces groups that want to remain smaller to manage 5 extra people.

    And as others have stated, it's clear to see you've never been in a situation where you have to micromanage 40 different people as a raid leader. 25 man is stressful and chaotic as it is. LFR works because there is virtually no planning involved due to the substantially lower difficulty. 40 man "normal mode" raiding would just require too much organizing for it to ultimately be worth it.

    Sometimes I think people see "40man" and think of it just as a relatively small number, when in reality that is FOURTY different people, with different personalities, and different lives, sitting behind computer screens. That's a LOT of commitment.

  18. #18
    The Lightbringer bergmann620's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Stow, Ohio
    Posts
    3,705
    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    And stop "wasting" time on heroic raid content? That will single-handedly KILL the hardcore community, which, even though it's not the majority, is still a fairly large chunk of the raiding population. You're literally looking at 15% or more of raiding guilds that would quit with that one change alone.
    Sorry, I was just following your logic to its' conclusion. I think you're exaggerating your number a bit, as the 'hardcore' community is microscopic in the at-large landscape. Further, heroic encounters are the pinnacle of the game, yet experienced by the smallest possible portion of the playerbase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    Your idea is just not good. There's a reason the changes were made in the first place, and there's a reason WoW is heading in the direction it is. Giving multiple, but set difficulties means people have options to choose how "harcore" they want to play WoW.
    Heading further in the direction WoW is going would be scrapping 'heroic' raiding, more than likely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    I think you're also under the assumption that Blizzard would just be able to "scale" the fights so that adding one player to the raid adds a certain damage or health percentage to the boss.
    Not at all; I just know that things like tank/healer counts must be a limiting factor when designing encounters for both 10 and 25-man groups, hence why I proposed a bump in the default raid size to 15. Those few extra bodies would give room to design much more engaging fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    This can't work. All this would create would be situations where certain raid sizes would be the "optimal" or "most easy" way to defeat an encounter. This is largely due to the fact that adding a player to a raid doesn't just mean the boss dies slower or does more damage, it means certain mechanics will work differently. Certain numbers of classes will have different synergies than others.
    All of those things are currently in play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    Ultimately, whether you want to accept this fact or not, this wouldn't result in Blizzard needing to create 1 raid difficulty and then scale it depending on x number of players. This would result in Blizzard have to design 31 different raid difficulties. (10 players all the way up to 40 players)
    That's simply crazy. That's like saying that Blizzard had to create up to 20 different raid difficulties to account for guilds in Vanilla that would take less than 40.

    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    It's just not gonna happen, bud. I'm sorry. I know there are some people who had a lot of fun with their 40 mans or 15 mans. But Blizzard's already commented on this topic several times. They LIKE the balance that comes from 10 players and that comes from 25. They have said in posts 15 players, while they like the concept, just wouldn't work because it forces groups that want to remain smaller to manage 5 extra people.
    Many things that we would like to see, either individually or in big groups, will never happen in WoW. By the same token, there are many things Blizz has said wouldn't happen that now do. Hello race/faction changes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    And as others have stated, it's clear to see you've never been in a situation where you have to micromanage 40 different people as a raid leader. 25 man is stressful and chaotic as it is. LFR works because there is virtually no planning involved due to the substantially lower difficulty. 40 man "normal mode" raiding would just require too much organizing for it to ultimately be worth it.
    If you ever had to micromanage 40 people in a raid, you were doing it wrong. There were class officers, and even in 25-man, DPS/Heals/Tank officers. This also depends completely on raid difficulty, on how many people you truly need to defeat a boss, and whether Blizzard accounts for logistics in their tuning of an encounter. You seem to be missing that the largest raid size in my proposal would also essentially be the 'easiest' difficulty, with the most room for overlap and redundancy.

    Oh well. As you might have noticed, this isn't the "Hey, I'm from Blizzard and this is what we're doing next" forums, but rather a fansite where we goof around talking about the game You don't need to take it quite so seriously =)

    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    Sometimes I think people see "40man" and think of it just as a relatively small number, when in reality that is FOURTY different people, with different personalities, and different lives, sitting behind computer screens. That's a LOT of commitment.
    Except, as has been stated, you never needed 40 committed people unless you were doing bleeding-edge content. You do capture what I miss the most about 40-man content, though- 40 different people, each with different personalities, skill levels, friendships, and yes, commitment.
    Life: bergmannity.com/ | Gaming: indignantgoat.com/
    XBL: Indignant Goat | BattleTag: IndiGoat#1288 | SteamID: Indignant Goat

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    Not exactly.

    They were dungeons. It was not technically a raid, otherwise it would have required a "raid" to be set like every raid has up until 5.1 removed the requirement. It never did, you could enter solo or in a five man, and I had successfully done LBRS and UBRS in five-man comps back in vanilla. They designed it so they COULD be done in a raid format with up to 15 people, but it was not the intent. They were not actually "raids", they were still just dungeons.
    I go by the criteria of an instance that can allow more than 5 people inside it and having "boss" level bosses as a raid. Perhaps it was a grey area on account of it being a "15 man". Keep in mind LBRS was attached without any instancing and was a 5 man dungeon with appropriate level bosses. It's just a unique grey area in classic. UBRS was definitely a raid.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    I go by the criteria of an instance that can allow more than 5 people inside it and having "boss" level bosses as a raid. Perhaps it was a grey area on account of it being a "15 man". Keep in mind LBRS was attached without any instancing and was a 5 man dungeon with appropriate level bosses. It's just a unique grey area in classic. UBRS was definitely a raid.
    If it didn't require to be in a raid, it was not a raid. If you could defeat it during it's age with 5-people, it was DEFINITELY not a raid.

    I have been playing since beta. Nearly all the end game dungeons allowed more then five people in case people wanted to go with more (Dire Maul was one of the exceptions for forcing only five players, though that came out in later patches after release), but none of them were considered raids. When they added ZG, that was the first raid added that was not a 40-man.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •