Where WoW went wrong

[Grogo]

Im on a giant server and I know a lot of people. I have a tight "community" on it, because I choose to.

The game is 8 years old. Over it people change, along with their attitude for the people on the game, and the way they want to play it.

I've been playing since the end of TBC, and until the end of Cata I was on a medium/small server, whose population was a tight knit group.

My guild left because we wanted a bigger server to recruit, but I still have alts there, and we're all still a very close assembly of people.

Unfortunately, most of the people who dislike WoW currently, whether they will freely admit it or not, including you OP, do not see the ACTUAL problem with WoW:

Age, and the age of those who play.

I love the game and I'm starting to feel myself outgrowing it, as are some of my other friends who have actually BEEN playing since Vanilla.

I know you guys who hate or dislike WoW now used to love it, but Blizzard has evolved the game for the market.

Unfortunately, by doing so to attract customers because it IS a business, you guys feel alienated, and I understand.

The game is old, and it has to change to survive.

I've read most of the points you guys have made but, this one is the largest, and the prime reason for it all.

The game is getting old.

The players are getting old.

And that's all.

That's part of it but to not "that's all" by any means. It used to be a good mix of hard/easy and now it leans heavily to the 'easy'...does not feel epic at all any more, they put up gates to slow people going at their own pace...

I was going going to list many reasons but fuck it....to me the game became the McDonalds of MMOs.

[Destil]

That's part of it but to not "that's all" by any means. It used to be a good mix of hard/easy and now it leans heavily to the 'easy'...does not feel epic at all any more, they put up gates to slow people going at their own pace...

I was going going to list many reasons but fuck it....to me the game became the McDonalds of MMOs.

So, and sorry if I come off as blunt, you're 16/16 Heroic?

Last I checked only 143 guilds have downed all Heroic bosses.

Heroic modes are there for those who want to accomplish and overcome the hardest challenges in the game.

Challenge Modes are also there, which not a lot of groups have even finished.

[killidan]

I don't say that because it suits my purpose.

Do you see GW2 with the mentallity of BC?

Or SWTOR?

SWTOR TRIED it and it's gone Free to Play in less than a year.

The biggest complaint with SWTOR and DCUO was that there wasn't a tool to auto que for Dungeons or Raids, which WoW now has an it's a controversial (but helpful) tool.

I do not say it without factual logic.

I say it because I have played both of those games to the endgame content, and they were absolutely awful.

They've taken on the approach of now modern games like GW2 and WoW with their tools that make for a Modern MMO, and are actually semi successful.

Rift took the Vanilla and BC approach, and hemorraged subscribers as well originally.

Once they tweaked things, too, they got their subscribers back, and have I think a bit over the higher end of the 100 thousands of subscribers.

Companies adjust to the standard.

If they go backwards, they lost customers.

It's not making a guess.

It's making a logical theory based on evidence from games I have played, and a multitude of reviews I've read on each game.

GW2 did NOT have TBC mentality. GW2 did not even have difficult dungeons or raids. It was some exploration, some beautiful world, and some new type of questing without the quest log. You have no case.

SWTOR was not remotely similar to TBC. It had a multitude of problems which were not present in TBC. SWTOR had weird movement, lots of instancing of the world, took 3 instances to move from one planet to another, huge zones with quests sparsely distributed, few people compared to zone size, graphical glitches in the shadows. I did enjoy it for a while, but its several problems put me off eventually.

You state some non-facts and draw conclusions based on your bias. Care to elaborate on what in SWTOR and GW2 were more similar to TBC and not to, say, MOP?

SWTOR went FTP in a year, yet TBC added 3-4 million players over two years. How do you reconcile that FACT with your non-fact based conclusions?

[Adramalech]

This is not official wow forums or active subscribers only forum. Why do you feel entitled to tell others what to do?

I do not. I never said that in the post you quoted.

And there you go again. Fautly design decisions. Faulty for who? Why are they faulty? How can they be improved? What are they influencing negatively? Is it really detrimental enough to be called faulty?

Most of the time people create threads complaining about a feature or some change, it's not due to some desire to see the game improve or because they think the feature will become a burden down the road. It's because they hate it and they don't care about anyone who does. They just don't want it there and that's it, screw everyone else. It's the "this is bad because I say so and you should feel bad for liking it/having implemented it" mentality. This very thread was created on a basis that it's the game's fault the player the OP quoted is now "alone", when it's not.

[dokhidamo]

Cata. Cata did everything wrong.

*It was the start of the afking culture by putting instances in hidden or complicated locations.

*Difficulty was all over the map, starting hard, swinging to just annoying, then being a faceroll.

*DS, the year without content. Also the worst designed raid ever.

*Flight destroyed the mystique of the Old World.

*The revamp was hailed as the biggest update ever. Most people sleep-played through it.

*Worgen and Goblin had no role in the game after level 20.

[Destil]

GW2 did NOT have TBC mentality. GW2 did not even have difficult dungeons or raids. It was some exploration, some beautiful world, and some new type of questing without the quest log. You have no case.

SWTOR was not remotely similar to TBC. It had a multitude of problems which were not present in TBC. SWTOR had weird movement, lots of instancing of the world, took 3 instances to move from one planet to another, huge zones with quests sparsely distributed, few people compared to zone size, graphical glitches in the shadows. I did enjoy it for a while, but its several problems put me off eventually.

You state some non-facts and draw conclusions based on your bias. Care to elaborate on what in SWTOR and GW2 were more similar to TBC and not to, say, MOP?

SWTOR went FTP in a year, yet TBC added 3-4 million players over two years. How do you reconcile that FACT with your non-fact based conclusions?

I know. I'm saying GW2 doesn't have the TBC mentallity and it succeeded.

I reconcile those facts with the fact that Wrath peaked the subscribers over 10 million and came towards the 12/13 million Cataclysm had, Wrath being the expansion you "hate" so much just because it added LFG and other "easy" methods to grouping and getting gear that apparently killed or is killing the game.

When I compare SWTOR to TBC or Vanilla WoW, along with Rift (which is MUCH more geared towards the first expansion for WoW and the original game we currently play), it's because it doesn't have the features WoW has currently. WoW evolved, while its competition did not until it was too late.

I am convinced, and this is my opinion, the makers of Rift had the mindset that if they made a game close to Vanilla WoW, they would attract a huge amount of subscribers. That was not the case.

Bioware tried to do something completely unconventional and made its target audience those that wanted a great Single Player story in an MMO. We all see where that went.

I will find you articles that support my statements, and hopefully it will cause that hate you hold so much for WoW, along with your ill will statements to deflate a bit because even though you disdain such a game that you used to play, it had to change due to the market.

Give me a bit because I have class, and I'll find everywhere I've read the Pros and Cons, along with the fact Rift barely holds that many subscribers any longer.

And hopefully after doing so, maybe, just maybe, we can come to some sort of agreement, instead of me obtaining the impression like I'm speaking to a brick wall.

[mikencarly]

Wow went right not wrong the old days=shit.

[khalltusk]

So, and sorry if I come off as blunt, you're 16/16 Heroic?

Last I checked only 143 guilds have downed all Heroic bosses.

Heroic modes are there for those who want to accomplish and overcome the hardest challenges in the game.

Challenge Modes are also there, which not a lot of groups have even finished.

I want to expand on this a bit more if I may.

SWP - was gated when it came out.
ICC - Was gated when it came out.
TOTC - was gated when it came out.

Kara - was gated behind an attunement quest line. I cannot remember if it required heroic versions of the dungeons being done or not as it was a long time ago. If it required normal dungeons thats one thing but heroic dungeons back then required you to get a certain amount of reputation before being able to enter that dungeon. Thing is to get that rep you farmed the dungeon linked to that reputation.
SSC and TK - required you to kill gruuls/mag and kara if im not mistaken. hyjal and bt required SSC and TK. You could not go to these places right off the bat! (well BT when it came out if you were a hardcore guild you'd be ready to enter when it was released and had the others down before then)

AQ40 was gated behind a server wide war effort system iirc.

there has been a lot of gated content in the game over the years.

[Whitepepper]

People could always be dicks in game but they were stuck with other dicks. Stop acting like reputation did not matter before WOTLK.

For the record I did like LFG, LFR and random bgs but I am not going to deny it.

Rep never mattered as much as skill. You could be a massive douche but if you were good enough guilds wouldn't pass on you because there weren't enough skilled players to go around. I'd venture to say most serious raiders have raided with people they hated because it was necessary to progress. I certainly did.

Speaking to the overall discussion it's hard to argue Blizzard didn't do most things right. They've maintained a popular product for a number of years because they were willing to evolve. Musicians who release successful albums decade after decade have to change as the times change and they are heralded for it in most cases. Times change and you can either change with them or you become the guy in 2012 sporting a mullet, wearing a members only jacket, blasting Huey Lewis and The News.

[Mooboy]

Ghostcrawler is the biggest problem in wow. He killed heroics, raids, raiding guilds, social interactions, realms, talent trees, lot more to count. He even killed the world with people sitting in cities all day long until they unsub, but he had to back off from that one.

Explain to me how he killed heroics, do you mean they're too easy now? or do you mean that when they made them hard they lost 800K subscribers? Also I'm curious how you think he stopped people being social? Does he smack your hands away from the keyboard?

Talent trees, and by that you mean 'cookie cutter except for certain bosses' yer that was fun, I liked never really having to change them once they were set, not like now where I've changed 3 or 4 times just to mix up how I play without it changing my DPS from normal to garbage....

Not that it really matters, I mean your under the illusion that one person made all these things happen.

[Chry]

I believe that, yes, gaining the convenience of LFD/LFR means losing the niceness out of most people, because they no longer need to be responsible for their actions. It's pretty black and white, really.

This is how I see it, in a real life scenario;

(pre LFD/LFR)
Kill a man --> you get caught and punished (ninja loot, whole server shames you)

(post LFD/LFR)
Kill a man --> you leave the country and live perfectly fine on the other side of the planet, where nobody knows who you are (ninja loot, leave to never be seen again)

[BrerBear]

That is an opinion. Mine differs. I played another mmo before wow. I remember the hours of manually putting together groups, and hours spent running on video game foot to get to camp sites so I could get xp. I remember when finding a group was so precious that you carried several levels of gear, spells, and consumables with you because you couldn't afford to leave a group once you were in it.

Those games still exist to some degree or another. They tend to have smaller populations and fewer servers. I'm sure they have room for anybody who truly longs for those times.

As for me, no thanks. I do remember enjoying some of my guilds more ten years ago. I also remember putting people on ignore back then as well. The game hasn't changed that much. I still have the option to develop positive relationships with other players. I just don't have to spend time idling while I wait for a group to have all the magical elements to mean I could maybe do a few hours of xp or endgame content.

People don't want to pay subs for content they "might" get to see some time. Not because it is difficult, but because the grouping aspect becomes a mini-game of acceptance and rejection based on superficial factors.

I agree that if everyone believed as I do that it's ok to go for content at minimal gear levels and be willing to coordinate and keep trying even through dying, that would be fun. I don't think that it's for everybody, and I am not interested in always being preached to about how if I don't always play that way I am somehow less of a human being.

If you find that your interests have moved on, that's cool. If you feel the need to say that the game has gone wrong, you may be suspect. The game still manages millions of active players every day for almost a decade with no sign of slowing down. It's crazy. A phenomenon even.

Yet these threads keep popping up like a drunk boy at a party who can't get over his ex. He just won't stop talking about the "mistakes" she is making when it is clear that whoever is ex is, she has clearly moved on and is doing fine.

Best response ever was right back on page one.
And bold part pretty much sums up the OP, who quit last month but just can't stop himself from slagging the game here every few days.

[Alastaircrawly]

Best response ever was right back on page one.
And bold part pretty much sums up the OP, who quit last month but just can't stop himself from slagging the game here every few days.

Hey mods can we get some infractions out and enforcement on the people who keep trolling the thread? thanks

@ darqhur and BrerBear
Humanizing a video game is crazy and down right annoying. I quit wow because I did not like how alt unfriendly mop was. I stay here reading the forums to see if things change but keep ruing in to people who are really emotional over a video game. Its not someones ex g/f or anything other than a fucking game.

Edit:

Well I take that back for some of the shit bags I guess this would be more than a game. You know the people who Humanize a video game I guess it is all they have in their life is wow. Pretty fucking sad really

OT:

I do not think it was just lfd/lfr that caused the cesspool we have now. I really think it is a lack of enforcement of the said rules by Blizzard

[Yogg-Saron, God of Death]

I find it a bit rich to see this complaint that "this or that" made World of Warcraft less social, and that there are more dicks now in the same thread that has many posters -who agree with that notion- that scream "YOU ARE WHAT CAUSED THIS" or start insulting those who disagree with the OP's (and similar) arguments at the slightest whim.

I mean, you sure seem like the social kind of people I would indubitably interact with.





This irony tastes delicious. High class.

[Stir]

To be honest, I do miss the days that my name meant something. Where I would log in, and immediately get whispers from people asking me if I wanted to join it to heal/tank. Where, if I didn't get an instant invite, I could simply ask in /lfg or trade or even /1, and would get results pretty damned fast. It was always hilarious to see people spamming in those channels, and getting a group after my second question (note: The trick was NOT TO SPAM. BE CLEVER.) I LOVED that. Absolutely loved it.
These days, it's generally easier to just queue up. Easier even than responding to people. The only times I ever get asked is for hardmodes, and I'm not too interested in them, so while I'll gladly tank or heal you through them (at my best ability, which may not give the best results possible), I won't make groups for those myself.

So that's changed. I'm sad to see it go, really. But there's no denying that that would only have lasted so long... More and more people would become disenfranchised, more and more people would grow bored, and more and more people would leave the game. True; the people who would leave because of that were annoying spammers (and spammers were often quite bad as players, as well as unsocial), so not that much lost there, but for WoW's business model, it was clearly the healthier choice. Keeping people busy is great business.

Which brings me to pandaland. I am forced to quest to get money for gear upgrades (or just gear upgrades) so that I can run the normal mode dungeons. There's not enough gear drops there to lift me over the threshold by grinding them, xp is lousy, and the instances become old very quickly.
So I'm forced to quest or PvP.
The quest lines are nice... To have done once; maybe twice at most (one Horde, one Alliance should get you just enough difference to make it through), but I really don't feel like having to run that stuff thrice. The alternative is to focus purely on one character... But I really don't want to. I really don't want to spend all my time doing dailies in order to grind the gear I need to tank heroics for people I just cannot stand.
So I should be in larger guild that can pull me through those heroics.

There's options there, but it's completely pigeonholing me. I feel stifled. I feel like there's no progress to be had for a casual gamer. Hell; levelling from 85 to 90 takes ages when you're not playing this game every day for hours at a time.
When I log in, I want to do something with the prospect of getting somewhere. What I do not want it to log in and twiddle my thumbs because all incentive of doing something has been taken away by the feeling that it doesn't lead to anything anyway.

[DeadmanWalking]

Hey mods can we get some infractions out and enforcement on the people who keep trolling the thread? thanks

@ darqhur and BrerBear
Humanizing a video game is crazy and down right annoying. I quit wow because I did not like how alt unfriendly mop was. I stay here reading the forums to see if things change but keep ruing in to people who are really emotional over a video game. Its not someones ex g/f or anything other than a fucking game.

Edit:

Well I take that back for some of the shit bags I guess this would be more than a game. You know the people who Humanize a video game I guess it is all they have in their life is wow. Pretty fucking sad really

OT:

I do not think it was just lfd/lfr that caused the cesspool we have now. I really think it is a lack of enforcement of the said rules by Blizzard

LFD and LFR did not cause the problem, how people choose to behave is the problem. Theres no message that pops up from Blizzard that says, "Now that you are in LFR go ahead and act like a douchebag, if you cant figure out how to be a douchebag here is a website that explains how -> link". If someone builds a theme park and a lot of people choose to poop on the seats of the rollercoaster just for fun its not the fault of the theme park that people don't know how to behave.

You still can kick people for bad behavior and if you hear of someone in your guild behaving badly in LFR/LFD you should repremand them that this behavior is not acceptable. If someone is doing the afk autoshoot thing they should be kicked, people should be watching for it rather than assuming no one does it. There are things we can do as players to punish bad behavior but its up to us to define what is acceptable behavior or not and not to do the same things ourselves.

[Jarl Balgruuf]

I think faction/server/name changes did FAR more damage to the community than LFD/LFR.

[Alastaircrawly]

LFD and LFR did not cause the problem, how people choose to behave is the problem. Theres no message that pops up from Blizzard that says, "Now that you are in LFR go ahead and act like a douchebag, if you cant figure out how to be a douchebag here is a website that explains how -> link". If someone builds a theme park and a lot of people choose to poop on the seats of the rollercoaster just for fun its not the fault of the theme park that people don't know how to behave.

Well you have a point. Blizzard lack of enforcement of rules increases douchebags. If you act like a douchebag on here and insult someone you get reported and infacted.

On wow someone acts like a douchebag cusses someone out harasses them you are told to right click report or use ignore. Nothing happens to the offender

[TwoTailedFox]

This argument that WoW itself is responsible for this is really sidestepping the issue. Plenty of other MMOs have implemented exactly the same featureset as WoW (LFD, LFR, I could go on), with none of them having the reputation that WoW does now of being full of clueless fucks.

The problem? People. People themselves have become impatient, and Blizzard knows this. After all, their sub numbers are dependant on their content reaching as many people as possible. I don't blame Blizzard for making these changes, because without them, the subscription count would be even lower than it is now.

The only thing I do blame Blizzard for are paid character transfers.

[DeadmanWalking]

Well you have a point. Blizzard lack of enforcement of rules increases douchebags. If you act like a douchebag on here and insult someone you get reported and infacted.

On wow someone acts like a douchebag cusses someone out harasses them you are told to right click report or use ignore. Nothing happens to the offender

Ultimately the biggest punishment you can dish out is making them que up again (30-45 min dps que)and make them work through all the bosses they already spent time fighting. They risk getting a party of bads and they risk loosing because someone else is doing to them what they were doing to us. If you want to take a chance on it you can also find their profile on wows webpage and their guild/guild leader and log onto that server to inform them what their guildie has been doing. Its a shot in the dark but sometimes it works.