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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrth View Post
    Yes, but assuming a mystical or supernatural process because you can't fathom the complexity is another type of ignorance.
    In ancient times, when some cultures started using explosives, they used some on the fields. This was seen by others and at first it was said to be magic. Later on they realized it was not.

    The whole idea behind what I said is that, while now, for us, the idea of a soul might seem like "magic", it may actually be true and be something we don't fully understand yet. Dismissing the idea from the start is ignorant and close-minded.


    And by the way, this is not some random scientists nobody knows about talking about stuff that comes out of their ass. That's why I linked their wiki since I knew people would think that and they'd be too lazy to google them. Penrose had some of his theories expanded by Hawkins even. And no, he's not doing this because he's super religious, he's actually an atheist.
    Hameroff is a professor and reknowned for his theories on the consciousness.
    They both had numerous awards, and quite important ones too.
    Not saying they can't be wrong, but I'm saying you should think more before saying "oh, they're stupid" when both have studied in the field of the theory far more then some of you have lived.
    Last edited by mmoc994dcc48c2; 2013-01-30 at 04:33 PM.

  2. #22
    Epic! Sayl's Avatar
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    I like how the tabloid tried to dredge this up as if it were some new idea (Hameroff and Penrose first presented it in 1996). It's been panned repeatedly for good reason, as the concept is wildly speculative and most of their ideas have already been falsified. This got featured in Through the Wormhole? Oh Morgan Freeman, you disappoint me greatly. The original paper makes no mention of souls or near-death experiences anyway, but people will never understand that if they're reading about it in tabloid media.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 10:34 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnorei View Post
    ...the idea of a soul might seem like "magic", it may actually be true and be something we don't fully understand yet. Dismissing the idea from the start is ignorant and close-minded.
    I don't think it's ignorant or closed-minded to reject ideas which are incompatible with physics.
    Last edited by Sayl; 2013-01-30 at 04:34 PM.

  3. #23
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    I guess 'Quantum physics experts create theory with no evidence that contradicts current psychological experts' wasn't as eye catching.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrth View Post
    It doesn't even have to be that involved. Close your eyes for a second. Do you see total blackness? Or do you see light streaks caused by the blood vessels in your eyelids?
    Well of course i don't see complete darkness, but i didn't know that it was blood vessels.
    But never mind that, my point is that i believe that our brain may create an illusion. Everything that we see, hear, feel and smell and is sent to our brain. From there everything is "being mixed" and create a dreamlike illusion, but it's only a theory that i have.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Haftepaff View Post
    Well of course i don't see complete darkness, but i didn't know that it was blood vessels.
    But never mind that, my point is that i believe that our brain may create an illusion. Everything that we see, hear, feel and smell and is sent to our brain. From there everything is "being mixed" and create a dreamlike illusion, but it's only a theory that i have.
    I don't know if the body "creates an illusion". I do know that at death the body has a tendency to release all of your stored dopamine. The dopamine rush could be an explanation for some of the experiences of near-death.

    EDIT: Again, very hard to get funding for testing
    Last edited by Kalcheus; 2013-01-30 at 05:04 PM.
    You're not allowed to discuss conspiracy theories on mmo-champion, which makes me wonder what they're trying to hide.

  6. #26
    Quantum. This word...
    I don't think it means what they think it means.

    Seriously, people... 'Quantum' is the new religion. Anything you want to be true but isn't true can be explained through quantum. It's hogwash. No; quantum physics isn't hogwash... But the weird spiritual hypotheses people attach to it is.

  7. #27
    Not the time for such ideas, not enough evidence and it goes against one of sciences taboo's, the realms of religion, which many times are sadly dismissed off the bat instead of used as inspiration or side thinking, both things are important as well.

    On the topic itself, maybe just two guys wanting some attention, doesnt seem very credible at this point but then again all new ideas dont seem credible at their inception, i will reserve the right to keep it in mind while questioning its validity till further development.

    Off topic, i sure hope they find it, then we develop tech that harvest souls and we can start worshipping slaneesh muhahaha

  8. #28
    The Insane Kathandira's Avatar
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    It is definitely interesting. The only part that I don't buy is post near death experience, the quantum information moving back to the brain. Once it is released, why would it come back, and how? Is there a force that attracts it? If there is a force that attracts it, what is to stop it from being picked up by another brain? is there a space limitation to how much soul one brain can have? is it one size fits all? If i stand next to a person as they die can i consume their consciousness? If one person has a near death experience next to a person who is dying at the same exact time, would the near death person, when coming to, absorb the dead mans consciousness? how would the quantum information know who's body it was once attached to?

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    It is definitely interesting. The only part that I don't buy is post near death experience, the quantum information moving back to the brain. Once it is released, why would it come back, and how? Is there a force that attracts it? If there is a force that attracts it, what is to stop it from being picked up by another brain? is there a space limitation to how much soul one brain can have? is it one size fits all? If i stand next to a person as they die can i consume their consciousness? If one person has a near death experience next to a person who is dying at the same exact time, would the near death person, when coming to, absorb the dead mans consciousness? how would the quantum information know who's body it was once attached to?
    And thus, Occam's Razor places this theory as more complex than a creator, and thus less likely to be true - in my opinion.

  10. #30
    Legendary! Wikiy's Avatar
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    Sounds like a load of gibberish that only a person who just discovered what quantum mechanics is would say.

    Near death experiences are easily explainable. When you heart stops, your brain still works. Synapses still carry electrical impulses. Lack of oxygen due to no blood circulation causes the brain to enter a state of euphoria and to start hallucinating, which, while unconscious, presents itself as dreams.

  11. #31
    Epic! Sayl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnorei View Post
    And by the way, this is not some random scientists nobody knows about talking about stuff that comes out of their ass. That's why I linked their wiki since I knew people would think that and they'd be too lazy to google them. Penrose had some of his theories expanded by Hawkins even. And no, he's not doing this because he's super religious, he's actually an atheist.
    Hameroff is a professor and reknowned for his theories on the consciousness.
    They both had numerous awards, and quite important ones too.
    Not saying they can't be wrong, but I'm saying you should think more before saying "oh, they're stupid" when both have studied in the field of the theory far more then some of you have lived.
    You shouldn't assume readers are unfamiliar with them (perhaps some are, but I'm certainly not). Penrose, despite his scientific contributions as well as his pedigree, has drawn up some rather nutty ideas as he's aged, and he's drawn significant criticism for it. Hameroff has teamed up with the likes of Deepak Chopra, which should set off every possible warning alarm.

    It doesn't matter how many awards you've won; if you partner with tinfoilers or espouse tinfoil ideas, you're going to catch flak for it, and rightfully so. It would be particularly unwise to put these guys up on a special pedestal just because they say things you find appealing, or that you're impressed by their resumes. In the end, all that matters is whether or not their ideas can withstand the scrutiny and rigor of the scientific method, and in this case they haven't.

  12. #32
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    Funny how people can't accept that there is nothing special about us.

    Silly thing called ego.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnorei View Post
    "A near-death experience happens when quantum substances which form the soul leave the nervous system and enter the universe at large, according to a remarkable theory proposed by two eminent scientists."
    Yea right...

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by chrth View Post
    Yes, but assuming a mystical or supernatural process because you can't fathom the complexity is another type of ignorance.
    While I agree in general, it is just as ignorant to assume we can explain, or comprehend everything. I'm not religious, so i'm not making claims that do we have a soul, but for thousands of years mankind has believed we have, and whether right or wrong it is something that helps explain what science so far can not.

  15. #35
    I've believed something similar to this for a long time "Your body/mind's energy and the path of that energy through you is the definition of your soul" I felt it could help explain ghosts (energy patterns that retain their shape after their conduit is gone) and reincarnation (energy forming similar pathways due to some method of retention) these are just shots in the dark and subject to all kinds of skepticism and not fleshed out in any real form, but the idea is somewhat similar. Who knows for sure what the primal fabric of the universe really looks like?

    For you religious types who feel insulted and think that we diminish belief with science: Understanding how the universe works is not the same as why it works like that. That's where theology comes in.
    "And what's the real lesson? Don't leave food in the fridge."
    -Spike Spiegel

  16. #36
    This hardly seems scientific.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Sayl View Post
    You shouldn't assume readers are unfamiliar with them (perhaps some are, but I'm certainly not). Penrose, despite his scientific contributions as well as his pedigree, has drawn up some rather nutty ideas as he's aged, and he's drawn significant criticism for it. Hameroff has teamed up with the likes of Deepak Chopra, which should set off every possible warning alarm.

    It doesn't matter how many awards you've won; if you partner with tinfoilers or espouse tinfoil ideas, you're going to catch flak for it, and rightfully so. It would be particularly unwise to put these guys up on a special pedestal just because they say things you find appealing, or that you're impressed by their resumes. In the end, all that matters is whether or not their ideas can withstand the scrutiny and rigor of the scientific method, and in this case they haven't.
    I also wanted to add to this that Hawkins has some marvelous streaks of delusions as well. Which he claims are scientifically sound. We just ignore them most of the time, but the truth is: Hawkins is quite delusional. Oh, he's also quite smart in some areas, but rather stupid when it comes to other things. Or at least just delusional.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    While I agree in general, it is just as ignorant to assume we can explain, or comprehend everything. I'm not religious, so i'm not making claims that do we have a soul, but for thousands of years mankind has believed we have, and whether right or wrong it is something that helps explain what science so far can not.
    Yes.. This argument.
    The truth is: Science cán and does explain those things. People merely generally do not want to listen, because they don't like the result.
    Last edited by Stir; 2013-01-30 at 05:30 PM.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    There are plenty of good explanations for near-death experiences that don't need to invoke magic as an explanation
    Where exactly do you see magic come in? It all depends on the level of intelligence in the beholder, what might seem like magic to some is completely logical to others.

    I'm not saying I think these scientists are right, but to call it magic is quite insulting.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    Where exactly do you see magic come in? It all depends on the level of intelligence in the beholder, what might seem like magic to some is completely logical to others.

    I'm not saying I think these scientists are right, but to call it magic is quite insulting.
    I think that was the point. Nobody has ever found a soul. So for a scientist to use that as part of his explanation of a physical event is equivalent to using magic as part of an explanation. Maybe magic is real, but let's keep it out of the explanations of physical processes until we have evidence supporting it.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    Quantum. This word...
    I don't think it means what they think it means.

    Seriously, people... 'Quantum' is the new religion. Anything you want to be true but isn't true can be explained through quantum. It's hogwash. No; quantum physics isn't hogwash... But the weird spiritual hypotheses people attach to it is.
    All quantum means is that there are set values something can have. Like it can only be 1,2,3,4 or 5 and not 1.5, 2.25, 4.1, ect. Quantum physics is a proven system to solve small scale physical events that cant be averaged into continuous systems like in Newtonian physics. Of course the answers are only probabilities which is why I believe it is a transitional theory that will be unnecessary once we can find out how to measure small particles and wave packets without disturbing them; Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

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