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  1. #1

    Disparity between Tier Set Bonuses

    I searched and saw nothing about this, though I imagine it's been brought up before.

    What is the deal with the T14 set bonuses being so good for BM and such relative crap for SV? For SV, I get just over 2k dps from the two bonuses combined, whereas with BM, I get about 2k dps from each one.

    The numbers on the T2 are obviously off. I recognize that SV gets off more ES's than BM gets KC's because of LnL, but not THAT much more. ES and KC come pretty close for me in terms of damage done per cast, but I know I don't get 3x as many ES's off; it'd be impossible with the CD on LnL. ES should get more like 10% from the 2 piece.

    I know this post probably made more sense 3 months ago. At least T15 seems like it is closer to benefiting each spec more evenly.

  2. #2
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    It could be a throwback to say Mage T5. The 4 piece was essentially Arcane only where as the 2 piece was more for all three specs. Blizzard may have decided that a 4 Piece bonus won't always affect each spec of a class the same way.

    Of course, that seems a bit off from what we have seen in the past, but who knows.... That could be it.


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  3. #3
    The funny thing is that it boosts MM the most - and yet it still sucks

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    The funny thing is that it boosts MM the most - and yet it still sucks
    and people think the pity change of AiS in 5.2 will matter when marks basically loses 10% haste losing the t14 set bonus

  5. #5
    Where are you getting your numbers from? Would you mind possibly linking a source?

    Edit: my bad I misread the OP. Ignore my post please.
    Last edited by Tehstool; 2013-01-31 at 12:08 AM.

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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    and people think the pity change of AiS in 5.2 will matter when marks basically loses 10% haste losing the t14 set bonus
    Not that I'm saying your wrong, but DAMN... do you post anything positive?

  7. #7
    I haven't rolled on any tier token in T14 because it's so bad and prefer to see it on the other protector classes. Often the tier bonus isn't even enough to make up for the terrible secondaries/gem slot/gem bonus.

    For instance I had normal zor'lok chest+normal wind lord shoulders. I also have normal tier chest + shoulders from accidental token drops and it was a dps decrease if I'd have switched to the tier pieces.
    It won't be much better in T15 (the absolute increase is higher on T15 gear but our total dps will greatly increase so relatively bad dps increase again) but we'll have to see what secondaries and gem slots come on tier pieces.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by StijnDP View Post
    I haven't rolled on any tier token in T14 because it's so bad and prefer to see it on the other protector classes. Often the tier bonus isn't even enough to make up for the terrible secondaries/gem slot/gem bonus.

    For instance I had normal zor'lok chest+normal wind lord shoulders. I also have normal tier chest + shoulders from accidental token drops and it was a dps decrease if I'd have switched to the tier pieces.
    It won't be much better in T15 (the absolute increase is higher on T15 gear but our total dps will greatly increase so relatively bad dps increase again) but we'll have to see what secondaries and gem slots come on tier pieces.
    are you a monk??? cause the t14 set bonuses for hunters are actually pretty good, and for BM they are outstanding.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by StijnDP View Post
    I haven't rolled on any tier token in T14 because it's so bad and prefer to see it on the other protector classes. Often the tier bonus isn't even enough to make up for the terrible secondaries/gem slot/gem bonus.

    For instance I had normal zor'lok chest+normal wind lord shoulders. I also have normal tier chest + shoulders from accidental token drops and it was a dps decrease if I'd have switched to the tier pieces.
    It won't be much better in T15 (the absolute increase is higher on T15 gear but our total dps will greatly increase so relatively bad dps increase again) but we'll have to see what secondaries and gem slots come on tier pieces.
    You are kidding, right? The tier bonuses are an upgrade. Our stat budget isn't that convoluted. A warrior's stat budget is way different compared to ours being that they go all out on and they still go for the 4 piece with offset pieces without crit. You have got to be simming your stuff wrong. Please don't spread misinformation. If you even took a lot at all the combinations of 4 set + offset piece you can see that it is a more than a fair trade for all 3 specs and even more for BM/MM. The set bonuses are well worth the stat change.

    Edit: With no upgrades at all (conversely with upgrades the gap would be bigger in favor of the tier bonuses and stats of the tier set) you actually lose agility just by using all off set piece and the tier gloves because the stats are better than the offset (crit/hit vs haste/mastery). You lose 80 agility. So your false assumptions are just gimping you and your guild. You shouldn't have been so ignorant and should've researched before making your decisions.

    Link to comparison.

    Just for demonstration purposes, the hit from the tier set and the expertise on the offset (set) cancel each other out and leave 68 hit left. There is mastery on the tier set and haste on the offset. The mastery is much better than the haste, but it leaves 44 rating left in favor of mastery. The 80 agility already beats out the crit. So you'd have more stats and the tier bonuses. The tier is unquestionably better.
    Last edited by Tehstool; 2013-01-31 at 04:34 PM.

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  10. #10
    Yeah, I have a hard time buying that normal tier wouldn't beat out normal offset pieces regardless of itemization and gem slots, if we're talking about the diff in getting a set bonus. I subbed out a 496 chest and 489 shoulders for 483 tier of each and gained 300 dps as SV and 1k as BM.

  11. #11
    Set bonuses are designed to give roughly a 5% DPS increase when you have 2 piece and another 5-10% increase at 4 piece. Depending on set pieces, off pieces and such as well. But that's roughly where Blizz tries to aim.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Tastic View Post
    Set bonuses are designed to give roughly a 5% DPS increase when you have 2 piece and another 5-10% increase at 4 piece. Depending on set pieces, off pieces and such as well. But that's roughly where Blizz tries to aim.
    1.5-2.5% per bonus seems to be more common. 5% is creeping into the overpowered-and-has-to-be-nerfed-so-people-take-the-next-tier realm, and 10% is completely unheard of.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    You are kidding, right?
    If you're SV and have 2monks, a war and 2shaman in your 10man, no I'm not kidding at all how much of a selfless jerk I'd be to roll on tier tokens.

    You are the ignorant one. You talk about BiS sets which 0.00% of people have during progression.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by StijnDP View Post
    If you're SV and have 2monks, a war and 2shaman in your 10man, no I'm not kidding at all how much of a selfless jerk I'd be to roll on tier tokens.

    You are the ignorant one. You talk about BiS sets which 0.00% of people have during progression.
    I think you are just trying to stick with what you said, when it is indeed wrong and ignorant and only trying to enforce your statement will only dig you a deeper hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by StijnDP View Post
    I haven't rolled on any tier token in T14 because it's so bad and prefer to see it on the other protector classes. Often the tier bonus isn't even enough to make up for the terrible secondaries/gem slot/gem bonus.

    For instance I had normal zor'lok chest+normal wind lord shoulders. I also have normal tier chest + shoulders from accidental token drops and it was a dps decrease if I'd have switched to the tier pieces.
    It won't be much better in T15 (the absolute increase is higher on T15 gear but our total dps will greatly increase so relatively bad dps increase again) but we'll have to see what secondaries and gem slots come on tier pieces.
    You yourself mentioned that the set bonus is bad and it often doesn't make up for the terrible secondaries/gems and gem bonuses. Which means you were talking about these hypothetical sets and when you were proven wrong you called me ignorant when the info was right there in your face and you chose not to listen to it. You are the ignorant one my friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by StijnDP View Post
    no I'm not kidding at all how much of a selfless jerk I'd be to roll on tier tokens.
    You are a selfless jerk because you aren't rolling on tier pieces. You also wouldn't be selfish (which is what I think you meant to say, selfless is in fact the opposite of selfish fyi.) because it isn't being selfish, it's for the best of the raid, you are gimping your raid by not having those tier pieces. The tier bonuses benefit you just as much as the other classes benefit from it and the stats are in fact better on the tier set when compared to going with full offset pieces. There is no question about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by StijnDP View Post
    have 2monks, a war and 2shaman
    Ok Mr/Mrs Celuna, that still isn't a valid reason to not grab your set bonuses. It appears that your monks, warrior and shaman all have at least their 2 set. You should probably try getting yours.

    You can sit here and keep trying to argue your point, but trying to insult me will show that you have nowhere else to resort, so you are just digging your hole deeper and deeper.


    TL ; DR
    tier bonuses + better stats > offset pieces with no tier bonuses and worse stats

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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    I think you are just trying to stick with what you said, when it is indeed wrong and ignorant and only trying to enforce your statement will only dig you a deeper hole.



    You yourself mentioned that the set bonus is bad and it often doesn't make up for the terrible secondaries/gems and gem bonuses. Which means you were talking about these hypothetical sets and when you were proven wrong you called me ignorant when the info was right there in your face and you chose not to listen to it. You are the ignorant one my friend.



    You are a selfless jerk because you aren't rolling on tier pieces. You also wouldn't be selfish (which is what I think you meant to say, selfless is in fact the opposite of selfish fyi.) because it isn't being selfish, it's for the best of the raid, you are gimping your raid by not having those tier pieces. The tier bonuses benefit you just as much as the other classes benefit from it and the stats are in fact better on the tier set when compared to going with full offset pieces. There is no question about that.


    Ok Mr/Mrs Celuna, that still isn't a valid reason to not grab your set bonuses. It appears that your monks, warrior and shaman all have at least their 2 set. You should probably try getting yours.

    You can sit here and keep trying to argue your point, but trying to insult me will show that you have nowhere else to resort, so you are just digging your hole deeper and deeper.


    TL ; DR
    tier bonuses + better stats > offset pieces with no tier bonuses and worse stats
    just ignore him, hes another prime example of why blizzard doesn't work on hunters, too much of the hunter population is like this guy and they simply do not understand how terrible they are.

  16. #16
    The set bonuses are amazing. Too bad I can't get my last item for my 4 piece...... Damn you RNG!

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    ...
    Maybe your sim works better
    trinket1=relic_of_xuen,id=79328,stats=1030agi,upgrade=2
    hands=raven_lords_gloves,id=85831,stats=2590armor_979agi_1469sta_573haste_700crit,gems=80a gi_160crit_60agi,enchant=170haste,reforge=haste_hit,upgrade=2
    neck=choker_of_the_unleashed_storm,id=86166,stats=682agi_1022sta_500crit_377mastery,reforg e=mastery_hit
    finger2=painful_thorned_ring,id=86200,stats=682agi_1022sta_388exp_494mastery,reforge=maste ry_hit
    shoulders=wingslasher_pauldrons,id=86204,stats=3030armor_1363sta_829agi_584crit_536mastery ,gems=160agi_60agi,enchant=200agi_100crit,reforge=mastery_hit
    feet=monstrous_stompers,id=86214,stats=2777armor_829agi_1363sta_567haste_559crit,gems=80ag i_160crit_120haste,enchant=140agi,reforge=haste_hit
    trinket2=terror_in_the_mists,id=86332,stats=1152agi
    main_hand=taoren_the_soul_burner,id=86889,stats=1751sta_1081agi_758mastery_697haste,gems=5 00agi_160agi,enchant=lord_blastingtons_scope_of_doom,reforge=mastery_exp,weapon=gun_3speed _8956min_16633max,upgrade=2
    wrists=stonemaw_armguards,id=87014,stats=1848armor_776agi_1164sta_533crit_492haste,enchant =170agi,reforge=haste_exp,upgrade=2
    waist=fetters_of_death,id=87034,stats=2375armor_1553sta_863agi_683mastery_470hit,gems=80ag i_160crit_80agi_160hit_320agi_120hit,reforge=mastery_crit,upgrade=2
    back=arrow_breaking_windcloak,id=87044,stats=1163armor_1081sta_720agi_529exp_399haste,ench ant=180crit,reforge=haste_hit
    chest=zorloks_fizzing_chestguard,id=87824,stats=4039armor_1835sta_1063agi_795mastery_635ex p,gems=320agi_80agi_160crit_120agi,enchant=80all,reforge=mastery_crit
    head=hawkmasters_headguard,id=89291,stats=3208armor_1719sta_906agi_570hit_680crit,gems=agi le_primal_80agi_160hit_180agi,reforge=hit_haste
    legs=sword_dancers_leggings,id=89830,stats=3535armor_1835sta_1063agi_540exp_850haste,gems= 160agi_80agi_160hit_120agi,enchant=285agi_165crit,reforge=exp_crit
    finger1=fengs_seal_of_binding,id=89932,stats=776agi_1164sta_525crit_504mastery,reforge=mas tery_exp,upgrade=2
    trinket1=relic_of_xuen,id=79328,stats=1030agi,upgrade=2
    shoulders=yaungol_slayers_spaulders,id=85294,stats=3030armor_829agi_1363sta_650exp_452hast e,gems=80agi_160hit_60agi,enchant=200agi_100crit,reforge=haste_hit
    chest=yaungol_slayers_tunic,id=85298,stats=4039armor_1063agi_1835sta_775crit_695mastery,ge ms=320agi_160agi,enchant=80all,reforge=mastery_hit
    hands=raven_lords_gloves,id=85831,stats=2590armor_979agi_1469sta_573haste_700crit,gems=80a gi_160crit_60agi,enchant=170haste,upgrade=2
    neck=choker_of_the_unleashed_storm,id=86166,stats=682agi_1022sta_500crit_377mastery,reforg e=mastery_hit
    finger2=painful_thorned_ring,id=86200,stats=682agi_1022sta_388exp_494mastery,reforge=maste ry_hit
    feet=monstrous_stompers,id=86214,stats=2777armor_829agi_1363sta_567haste_559crit,gems=80ag i_160crit_120haste,enchant=140agi,reforge=haste_exp
    trinket2=terror_in_the_mists,id=86332,stats=1152agi
    main_hand=taoren_the_soul_burner,id=86889,stats=1751sta_1081agi_758mastery_697haste,gems=5 00agi_160agi,enchant=lord_blastingtons_scope_of_doom,reforge=mastery_crit,weapon=gun_3spee d_8956min_16633max,upgrade=2
    wrists=stonemaw_armguards,id=87014,stats=1848armor_776agi_1164sta_533crit_492haste,enchant =170agi,upgrade=2
    waist=fetters_of_death,id=87034,stats=2375armor_1553sta_863agi_683mastery_470hit,gems=80ag i_160crit_80agi_160hit_320agi_120hit,reforge=mastery_crit,upgrade=2
    back=arrow_breaking_windcloak,id=87044,stats=1163armor_1081sta_720agi_529exp_399haste,ench ant=180crit,reforge=haste_hit
    head=hawkmasters_headguard,id=89291,stats=3208armor_1719sta_906agi_570hit_680crit,gems=agi le_primal_80agi_160hit_180agi,reforge=hit_exp
    legs=sword_dancers_leggings,id=89830,stats=3535armor_1835sta_1063agi_540exp_850haste,gems= 160agi_80agi_160hit_120agi,enchant=285agi_165crit,reforge=haste_crit
    finger1=fengs_seal_of_binding,id=89932,stats=776agi_1164sta_525crit_504mastery,reforge=mas tery_haste,upgrade=2
    My sim shows 600dps increase which
    1) is less compared to other dps classes in my raid team, both in theory and in practice.
    2) will only be reached with 100% perfect use of ES which is impossible for a human and also unwanted or impossible on some fights.

    Place yourself into how most people raid. I'm still in the top 10% with 6/6 2/6HC. 90% of the hunter population has 'worse' conditions.
    When you raid 10m HC 2days/week you don't have time to clear everything every week and at the end of the tier maybe 2 or 3 people will have 4set HC gear. I'm hope you wouldn't take such insignificant bonuses either over other people.
    Will I let tokens be disenchanted? Off course not. But after 4months we still haven't disenchanted any tokens and the raid gets geared quicker by me focusing on non-set items instead of spreading the few tokens to so many people.

    So no I'm not ignorant, jumping in a hole, gimping my raid or trying to insult you. I however wish you could consider not everyone is you with your raid and your gear. Then you wouldn't have to jump on people all the time in this forum and make them hate "those damn elitist hc raiders that should be removed from wow".

  18. #18
    It's amazing to be able to reach that level of ignorance and arrogance.. That takes real commitment..
    All the pro hunters in the top guilds in the world think this way ? With definitive proof through math and theorycrafting ? Ha! fuck those idiots, I'm right! huzzah!

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 09:06 AM ----------

    You talk like someone is putting a gun to your head and making you play SV.. Since you seem to care that much about gearing up the raid equally, i'm guessing your goal is to progress as efficiently as possible since you only raid 2 days a week.. So you wouldn't wanna waste the raid's time right ? Well, why the hell don't you go BM for the single target fights then ? The 4 pc alone for which is ~3k dps boost in decent gear.. You're deluding yourself into thinking by forgoing tokens you're doing the raid a favor.. You're not. You'd do it a favor if you went for the tokens, and played the right spec for the fight..

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    just ignore him, hes another prime example of why blizzard doesn't work on hunters, too much of the hunter population is like this guy and they simply do not understand how terrible they are.
    He's right. This tier Hunter started off rather slow but the changes that we got, notably SrS/Flat 5% damage increase, we are on par with many classes, and better than many as well.

    Now Nemesis if you were to try and argue that next tier we could, potentially, be in a bit of trouble then I could at least agree. Unless Blizzard has truly found a way to prevent scaling getting out of control then Hunters will slowly start to float down to the bottom. But saying that Hunters were bad this tier, especially to not get your 4p (Or the very least your 2p), is ignorance.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Saoron View Post
    It's amazing to be able to reach that level of ignorance and arrogance.. That takes real commitment..
    All the pro hunters in the top guilds in the world think this way ? With definitive proof through math and theorycrafting ? Ha! fuck those idiots, I'm right! huzzah!

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 09:06 AM ----------

    You talk like someone is putting a gun to your head and making you play SV.. Since you seem to care that much about gearing up the raid equally, i'm guessing your goal is to progress as efficiently as possible since you only raid 2 days a week.. So you wouldn't wanna waste the raid's time right ? Well, why the hell don't you go BM for the single target fights then ? The 4 pc alone for which is ~3k dps boost in decent gear.. You're deluding yourself into thinking by forgoing tokens you're doing the raid a favor.. You're not. You'd do it a favor if you went for the tokens, and played the right spec for the fight..
    Well said.

    Quote Originally Posted by StijnDP View Post
    Maybe your sim works better



    My sim shows 600dps increase which
    1) is less compared to other dps classes in my raid team, both in theory and in practice.
    2) will only be reached with 100% perfect use of ES which is impossible for a human and also unwanted or impossible on some fights.

    Place yourself into how most people raid. I'm still in the top 10% with 6/6 2/6HC. 90% of the hunter population has 'worse' conditions.
    When you raid 10m HC 2days/week you don't have time to clear everything every week and at the end of the tier maybe 2 or 3 people will have 4set HC gear. I'm hope you wouldn't take such insignificant bonuses either over other people.
    Will I let tokens be disenchanted? Off course not. But after 4months we still haven't disenchanted any tokens and the raid gets geared quicker by me focusing on non-set items instead of spreading the few tokens to so many people.

    So no I'm not ignorant, jumping in a hole, gimping my raid or trying to insult you. I however wish you could consider not everyone is you with your raid and your gear. Then you wouldn't have to jump on people all the time in this forum and make them hate "those damn elitist hc raiders that should be removed from wow".
    I'm not jumping on you. I know you don't raid as much as me or have killed as many Hcs by your first post talking about normal gear. This so called "hardcore elitist" (me) was only trying to help you and inform you about what you posted was wrong and provided information to support my statement. I also suggested that you may be simming it improperly if it is showing a dps loss. What you linked only reinforces my statement. You are comparing two 496s and the 2 piece against a 517 and a 496 which is a 21 ilvl difference and it is still favoring the 2 piece. What that sim should have told you was that the 2 piece was very powerful that it still beats out after 21 ilvl loss and some bad stats on the shoulders. Not that you should necessarily switch to it. In equal item levels that number would increase significantly. You also did try insulting me when you called me ignorant. That is an insult in this context need I remind you.
    You are just digging that hole deeper. Here is YOUR wow-heroes.

    Now, let's pick one that you ranked high on (<100)

    Blade Lord Teriyaki (Ta'yak, I had to.)

    Now with equal gear levels and better stats (remember my comparison? 80 more agility too) from the set bonus pieces, you could see something like this:
    Explosive Shot damage: 6,516,514 (19279.6272189 dps)

    Explosive Shot damage with the 2 piece: 6,842,339.7 (20243.6085799 dps)

    A 963.981361 gain for getting tier set gear. (just approximate, the stat difference would be too hard to factor)

    Now, you said yourself you can't do a perfect rotation, so we can't use that as a reference. Here is one of my feng logs that I ranked ~30 SV hunter at the time. Keep in mind the AoE lowers the ES damage ever so slightly.

    Look at this

    Explosive Shot damage with the 2 piece: 7976001 (26150.8229508 dps)

    Explosive shot damage without the 2 piece: 7577200.95 (24843.2818033 dps)

    A 1307.5411475 dps difference.

    So if you go with the tier pieces over offset pieces it will yield a dps gain and better stats. You can't argue with that logic saying that they aren't better for you. You also shouldn't call them insignificant either, because under the same conditions of your sims, the other classes' set bonuses can seem abysmal if you delude the results to show so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arktem View Post
    He's right. This tier Hunter started off rather slow but the changes that we got, notably SrS/Flat 5% damage increase, we are on par with many classes, and better than many as well.

    Now Nemesis if you were to try and argue that next tier we could, potentially, be in a bit of trouble then I could at least agree. Unless Blizzard has truly found a way to prevent scaling getting out of control then Hunters will slowly start to float down to the bottom. But saying that Hunters were bad this tier, especially to not get your 4p (Or the very least your 2p), is ignorance.
    Maybe if this was the start of the expansion, but our tier bonuses weren't what caused our damage to suffer. Now what they claim is just ignorant.
    Last edited by Tehstool; 2013-02-01 at 04:11 PM.

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