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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    "Marginally"?
    Their tanks barely deal 50k dps. Having a dps soak the cleave (or at least ask the deathknight to equip dps gear) you could gain 50k-100k.
    With their highest dps doing 100k and rest around 50-80k
    Do you really think they would double or triple the dps by equipping some dps gear ?

    Hint. its not a gear issue.

  2. #22
    A rogue is an excellent soaker. We gained 50k+ by having our prot paladin going ret instead of tanking, it was that simple.

    2 tanks (BM monk, rogue)
    2 healers (druid, disc)
    6 dps(fury, retri, warlock, mage, hunter, spriest).

    It hasn't been a problem since our first kill, guess we overgear it by now.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    With their highest dps doing 100k and rest around 50-80k
    Do you really think they would double or triple the dps by equipping some dps gear ?

    Hint. its not a gear issue.
    I do 100k+ dps tanking it in dps spec.
    I don't know how much I would deal in tank spec, but 50k looks like a good guess.
    So, yeah, I think you can double your dps as a tank if you tank in dps spec.

    Even in tank spec, their dk should probably be able to gain dps by being capped and haste/crit, especially haste. Mastery is not that good on this fight anyway (useless while kiting, and superfluous for soaking cleaves.)

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    I do 100k+ dps tanking it in dps spec.
    I don't know how much I would deal in tank spec, but 50k looks like a good guess.
    So, yeah, I think you can double your dps as a tank if you tank in dps spec.

    Even in tank spec, their dk should probably be able to gain dps by being capped and haste/crit, especially haste. Mastery is not that good on this fight anyway (useless while kiting, and superfluous for soaking cleaves.)
    I think you missunderstood me completely.
    Didnt mean tank dps cant get that high, i manage it myself, but judging from the log, he's atleast 10-20k dps short already, equipping dps gear wont double or triple that.
    From 50k to 150k ?

    Lets ignore the top parse for blood on 10man normal is 101k
    Last edited by santa666; 2013-01-31 at 12:36 PM.

  5. #25
    Bloodsail Admiral Saegno's Avatar
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    To those suggesting a rogue soak swipe with feint, that doesn't work anymore. The attack is not considered AoE so the only reduction you get baseline is armor and can reduce it by 30% more with Elusiveness(imp feint). The days of rogues taking 1/2 damage from it are gone, they just get wrecked by it now.

    Besides, it's better to have a rogue on the legs/body.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
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  6. #26
    Just from your specs it's pretty apparent you raiders don't care. Demo, fire, surival? Sure those specs work on a few fights, but afflic, arcane and BM are all far better. Your DPS are bad. On your longest attempt that hunter did 46k. I did 55k DPS as a Disc Priest on our last heroic kill

    Some random Garalon tips:
    -make sure everyone uses a healthstone if they are <50% HP when a crush is landing.
    -paladin can bubble or bop the other healer so they can continue healing during crush stun
    -tanks should definitely kite, and consider a healer kiting first during bloodlust if DPS is a problem. On heroic we use a rotation of 8 kiters on 10 man, so everyone is capable of doing it

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Saegno View Post
    To those suggesting a rogue soak swipe with feint, that doesn't work anymore. The attack is not considered AoE so the only reduction you get baseline is armor and can reduce it by 30% more with Elusiveness(imp feint). The days of rogues taking 1/2 damage from it are gone, they just get wrecked by it now.

    Besides, it's better to have a rogue on the legs/body.
    Can anyone confirm this? We will be putting in some attempts tonight and we used to have a rogue soak with feint but we haven't attempted it in about 3-4 weeks.

  8. #28
    Have melee stand in buff circle and cleave have ranged focus the body.

    We just have anyone kite. Usually ranged dps and or a healer. We use 4 kiters and switch at 20 stacks.

    Also we have our tanks use dps gear iirc.
    Last edited by lockedout; 2013-01-31 at 02:36 PM.
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Saegno View Post
    To those suggesting a rogue soak swipe with feint, that doesn't work anymore. The attack is not considered AoE so the only reduction you get baseline is armor and can reduce it by 30% more with Elusiveness(imp feint). The days of rogues taking 1/2 damage from it are gone, they just get wrecked by it now.

    Besides, it's better to have a rogue on the legs/body.
    It doesn't? Funny, we did it four days ago with two healers so I guess it was patched this week. We don't need more dmg on the legs, they die more or less instantly.

    According to wowhead the furious swipe does 300k in 10man normal (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=122735)
    Our rogue took on average 168k dmg from swipes(http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/n...?s=1163&e=1480)
    Our BM monk took on average 174k dmg from swipes (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/n...?s=1163&e=1480)

    So I'd still say that if you need more dmg, having a rogue/plate dps tank to free up a tank slot is well worth it. Also running two healers, sure it's stressful but a shorter fight means less time for mistakes.
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  10. #30
    We have a rogue soak for the second pheremone pass, since we wanted to leave the pools around the outside of the room and the tanks can't get too far away from the boss. Just last night, as a matter of fact. It seems to work for the 30 seconds he has to do it, although the healer has to babysit him the whole time and we all breathe a sigh of relief when he gets out from in front of the boss without accidentally hitting his shadowstep button again.

    Your rogue may be telling you it doesn't work any more because he doesn't want to do it... I understand it's quite nerve wracking and frustrating, especially when the active legs are the ones behind the boss.

  11. #31
    Bloodsail Admiral Saegno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninotchka View Post
    We have a rogue soak for the second pheremone pass, since we wanted to leave the pools around the outside of the room and the tanks can't get too far away from the boss. Just last night, as a matter of fact. It seems to work for the 30 seconds he has to do it, although the healer has to babysit him the whole time and we all breathe a sigh of relief when he gets out from in front of the boss without accidentally hitting his shadowstep button again.

    Your rogue may be telling you it doesn't work any more because he doesn't want to do it... I understand it's quite nerve wracking and frustrating, especially when the active legs are the ones behind the boss.
    I am the rogue, I was taking 220K+ hits with feint up. It seems it may or may not work, as others have reported issues with it. The only thing I can think of is the damage is figured as soon as the attack starts, requiring feint up before he starts his animation, not when it lands.

    That or he is just one buggy bug.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    If you're semi-hardcore or semi-casual what's the other half? To me, they're both the same thing.
    Canicus - 577 - Arcane Mage - US Mal'Ganis Horde - 12/14H T16

  12. #32
    I think the simple basic fact is that your raid DPS is not good enough. You really need 2-3 people minimum who are pushing 100k on this fight and it doesn't look like you're that close. It sucks. My guild was there too. Your overall raid DPS on this fight is 455k. You need about 515k raid dps to beat the enrage timer. You need to find that extra dps somewhere and probably the easiest way is to replace your weakest dps with someone else. My guild was on this guy for several weeks due to the same issue. The first night we got him we had actually picked up a replacement whose dps was a bit better than our regular player and it pushed our overall DPS to the point where we could kill him. Prior to that night, we had discussed changing strats, one tanking, etc etc etc, but what it came down to was that we just needed more dps.

    Also, make sure you're getting stam buff with runescroll of fortitude.

    There are a ton of strats our there, but for reference, our strategy is 3 heal 2 full tanks. Kiting goes healer1 -> tank1 -> tank2 -> healer2 -> healer3 -> healer 1

  13. #33
    Your Survival hunter should be BM for this fight, BM is a very good spec for Garalon, especially with Blink Strike.

  14. #34
    Dreadlord Outofmana's Avatar
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    What we did was have all 3 healers kiting + 1 hunter @ 20 stacks, only then could our casual guild reach the enrage timers

    Oh the relief when I didn't have to kite in my new guild and just spam some heals...

  15. #35
    How many attempts have you guys made?

    Like someone else said, get the mechanics of the fight down and see if you can reach enrage with no deaths. From there, tweak DPS as necessary.

    If you're getting close to 100 attempts, then things are horribly wrong...something tells me this is not the case.

    (btw, 30 attempts is NOTHING...if your raiders get snappy with anything below 100 tries...its a personnel issue)

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  16. #36
    Ok, approach it how we did it for heroic, from a math standpoint. I'll show you the requirements of this fight.

    Garalon - 218M
    Garalon's leg (3% of boss HP) - 6.5M
    Enrage: 7 minutes/420 seconds
    Garalon casts Mend Leg roughly every 31-32 seconds, meaning that the number of legs you can attack and kill are 12 mended legs (last killable one spawning at ~6:30) + 4 original legs.
    16 legs * 6.5M is about 104M total damage to legs, leaving 114M damage that MUST be done to the boss.

    Since there are a static amount of legs, that means that it is not about "how fast we can kill each leg," even though it's intuitive to think that our DPS is better by killing legs faster. It does not matter how fast we kill legs as long as we do not waste a Mend Leg (and ideally we don't want to have too many legs up). Basically that's just a long winded way of saying we want as few people on legs as necessary and you are being detrimental if you are attacking legs when outside of the circle. Back to numbers.

    Since each leg has 6.5M and a leg spawns every 31 seconds, allowing for 6 seconds of any ramp-up time and reaching the circle/leg (you should NEVER DPS a leg out of the circle), this leaves 25 seconds to kill the leg. 6.5M/25 seconds = 260K DPS. Since you get double damage in the circle, this is 130K real leg DPS. This should be doable by 2 people (65K each). Remember that I accounted for ramp-up time and time to reach the leg. Tanks can also handle the inner leg or you can just always leave that up if that doesn't mess up kiting.

    You want people on the legs that can reach the leg quickly and have little ramp-up time. The obvious choice is melee since you don't want melee kiting Pheremones. Your monk seems to be on legs already, I recommend one of your hunters or if you bring another melee, have him also helping the monk. Nobody should ever DPS a leg outside of that leg's circle, and ideally, after the initial burn, have only your 2 designated players hit the legs, or tanks can hit the front legs that might be hard for melee to reach.

    This leaves boss DPS. If you kill the 16 legs, you have 114M damage that must be done to the body. To beat the enrage you need about 271K body DPS. If you 2 heal the fight, each body DPSer (I counted the tanks as half a body DPS each) needs to pull 54K DPS to the body. If you 3 heal it, that brings the requirement up to 68K body DPS. Remember this includes kiting time and time spent DPSing the legs in the beginning.

    Hope this helps the DPS, which seems to be the main problem.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    I think you missunderstood me completely.
    Didnt mean tank dps cant get that high, i manage it myself, but judging from the log, he's atleast 10-20k dps short already, equipping dps gear wont double or triple that.
    From 50k to 150k ?

    Lets ignore the top parse for blood on 10man normal is 101k
    There are TWO tanks.
    My statement was "if your two tanks were in dps spec, they could do 100k dps each", thus an increase of 100k dps.
    But even if they don't want to swap spec, the dk tank should be in dps gear, he has nothing to do in tank gear on this fight.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Outofmana View Post
    What we did was have all 3 healers kiting + 1 hunter @ 20 stacks, only then could our casual guild reach the enrage timers

    Oh the relief when I didn't have to kite in my new guild and just spam some heals...
    This is how we got around the enrage timer early in the tier, we used our healers to kite (2 tanks, 3 healers, 5 dps). Ended up beating the enrage timer with time to spare.

    It's also worth mentioning that if you can't cleave and there are people who CAN cleave in your raid, then you should NOT be dpsing legs after the start of the fight where you kill teh first 4, you should leave the legs to the cleavers and just single target the bosses body - you're lowering the raids dps by dpsing legs.

    In terms of beating Garalon, your raiders simply need to be doing more damage, not all of the specs are optimal (demo, survival), but that's not the issue. Each of those specs is capable of shifting far higher dps than they are, getting them to go practice on a dummy or read up on their rotation (class sections of MMO champion should suffice) would do more help than anything. You're missing numbers more than anything.

    In terms of RLing.

    "we have people yelling at each other" - over TS / Vent etc? If so, stomp that out for a start, unless they have something important to say (Like saying they need to pass pheremones off etc), they have no reason to be speaking if they're not the RL and are just going to be mouthing off at people. If anyone needs telling to stop doing stupid, they can whisper the RL and they can sort it out - it's not their job and they're just causing problems. You do not want un-necesary chatter over TS getting in the way of important stuff and throwing people off game, if it's in raid chat, then they should have better things to be doing with their fingers than throwing a tantrum in raid chat.

    Also, make sure you're sticking with your tactics for a decent amount of time before switching, unless it's obvious that things are not going to work. Nothings more disruptive than swapping tactics each pull, find what you need to do to meet the enrage timer, then stick with it until people get it right.

    If you're struggling with the enrage, I'd 3 heal it with healers kiting, 2 tank it with tanks using dps flasks and possibly trinkets, then just get your dps to concentrate on what they should be doing, not having ranged dpsing legs over cleave dps etc.

  19. #39
    Just went in and killed this last night. Our rogue didn't seem to be taking any more damage than usual. We were not able to kill it before but had no problems tonight. Likely gear I guess or played better. Either way we didn't seem to have any troubles with the rogue.

  20. #40
    Congratulations! Sometimes it's an off night and there's nothing you can do on the day, but going in fresh makes all the difference.

    As for rogues - we now have a Garalon ready check that involves asking our rogue whether he's taken Killing Splat and Shadowstep off of his keybinds before we pull the boss.

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