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  1. #1
    High Overlord Trisrx's Avatar
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    [Ret] Hand of Sacrifice (5.2 ptr)

    From the desk of Ghostcrawler:

    "- We agree that Retribution does not offer enough benefits to an Arena or Battleground team beyond just taking a Holy paladin. We are going to try a change where Hand of Sacrifice also dispels all harmful magic effects on the target for Ret only."


    What say you ret community?

    I think its great that GC has taken notice of our current situation, but this change isnt that great. Sacrifice already has an important role in pvp. I feel like the spell will have many competing uses for a two minute cooldown. I really love that they want to give us some type of defensive dispel back, I just wish they gave us a little more control over it, perhaps by putting it on hand of salvation instead. And I wouldnt mind being able to cast it on myself once in a while. Either way, this further cements clemency as the proper talent choice. And will this suddenly make RBG teams want us? I doubt it.


    UPDATE
    GC - ""We are considering some other buffs to Ret still. We don't know yet if we will do any or all of these (they are emphatically not promises) but the kind of thing we are considering:

    - Glyph of Blessed Life -- no longer requires Seal of Insight. You can have any Seal or none active, which puts the glyph in Ret's hands.
    - Glyph of Templar's Verdict -- damage reduction triggered by Exorcism (or both) instead. That way you aren't choosing TV over a heal.
    - Light's Hammer -- also snares targets it damages while in range. This one potentially buffs Holy too, but we're not sure that many Holy paladins would give up Prism to take it."
    Last edited by Trisrx; 2013-02-01 at 03:08 AM.

  2. #2
    That's....still something Holy already has.

    What the fuck? Denounce effect on TV. It's not hard.

  3. #3
    Pandaren Monk
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    I think with this change and the healing buffs, we may actually be pretty decent bodyguards for FC's. Being able to sac a healer out of deep freezes and such will be nice, but I agree that it should be salvation. Makes more sense, anyway.
    But I agree that I'm not too sure if I like that it just solidifies Clemency. Hand of Purity still is underwhelming IMO, as its too situational.
    But hey, its a Ret-unique utility. At least they have acknowledged the problem. It also somewhat hints that they are going to have other ideas.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 07:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by laughtrey View Post
    That's....still something Holy already has.

    What the fuck? Denounce effect on TV. It's not hard.
    Denounce effect on TV is too good. It would completely shut down certain specs just for playing against a Ret, unless it only lasted a couple seconds, and then it'd barely be worth it.Also... denounce is something Holy has too.

  4. #4
    So... just to make sure we're clear.

    Ghostcrawler believes that giving Ret paladins dispel with a 2 minute cooldown will somehow make them attractive to RBG teams? Really? For fuck sake.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    I think with this change and the healing buffs, we may actually be pretty decent bodyguards for FC's. Being able to sac a healer out of deep freezes and such will be nice, but I agree that it should be salvation. Makes more sense, anyway.
    But I agree that I'm not too sure if I like that it just solidifies Clemency. Hand of Purity still is underwhelming IMO, as its too situational.
    But hey, its a Ret-unique utility. At least they have acknowledged the problem. It also somewhat hints that they are going to have other ideas.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 07:25 PM ----------



    Denounce effect on TV is too good. It would completely shut down certain specs just for playing against a Ret, unless it only lasted a couple seconds, and then it'd barely be worth it.Also... denounce is something Holy has too.
    Denounce on TV would make Ret attractive for RBGs to kill healers. It's not too strong at all, we're the only melee class without a heal stopper already. It's an 8 second dispellable debuff. Dispel is on an 8 second cooldown. It's almost perfect. You have to TV ever 8 seconds at least too, so that means you can easily get peeled.

    Holy has it, but really shouldn't ever use it over healing.

  6. #6
    High Overlord Trisrx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laughtrey View Post
    That's....still something Holy already has. What the fuck?.
    Heh I guess that is kinda crazy. "Holy is much more attractive than ret, so we have decided to give ret a terrible version of what holy has"

    Denounce on TV would be pretty sweet. I actually think it might make more sense to put it on exorcism, would have less uptime but it could be used more skillfully.

    Either way, they know something must be done for ret. Thank god!

  7. #7
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by laughtrey View Post
    Denounce on TV would make Ret attractive for RBGs to kill healers. It's not too strong at all, we're the only melee class without a heal stopper already. It's an 8 second dispellable debuff. Dispel is on an 8 second cooldown. It's almost perfect. You have to TV ever 8 seconds at least too, so that means you can easily get peeled.

    Holy has it, but really shouldn't ever use it over healing.
    Sure they should, I do it all the time as holy if people are above 80%. It stops a TON of dps. And making spells uncrittable stacks too well with MS, if we are keeping it up tons. I understand we can be peeled, but a rogue and Ret on a healer would flat out drop him. Nerve Strike + MS + plus your heals can't crit. Yeah... no, don't need to get overnerfed after that happens.

    Granted, I think the dispell should be on freedom.

  8. #8
    Scarab Lord Valarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Porkus View Post
    So... just to make sure we're clear.

    Ghostcrawler believes that giving Ret paladins dispel with a 2 minute cooldown will somehow make them attractive to RBG teams? Really? For fuck sake.
    Exactly my thoughts when I read this.

    Are they having a laugh?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    Exactly my thoughts when I read this.

    Are they having a laugh?
    Well, it's less since we have to take Clemency pretty much always now. But yeah, not impressed. Make Ret's Devotion Aura dispel everyone maybe... :P We all know that only mass effects make an impression on RBG leaders.

  10. #10
    A dispell on a 2 min cooldown? Brb, I'll contact my RBG leader and tell him we need a ret come 5.2... lol.

    Edit: Thinking about it, Ret should get their stun removal back on their Hand of Freedom instead of this budget dispell. Add a 25 second cooldown to the stun removal effect, so Rets with Clemeny can't remove stun from the same target twice in a row.
    Last edited by Bonkbonk100; 2013-01-31 at 04:52 AM.

  11. #11
    Scarab Lord Valarius's Avatar
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    They should have seen this coming when the talent tree revamp consisted of 90% ripped Ret baseline abilities.

    Now we're in a situation where we're not dangerous enough to just be a high pressure DD because our damage without cools is middle-pack at best, but we don't have any distinguishing utility over our healing spec.

    This idiotic change doesn't even begin to address the issue, the fact they're being conservative and are like "we're going to *try* this change" only emphasizes how clueless they truly are.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    They should have seen this coming when the talent tree revamp consisted of 90% ripped Ret baseline abilities.

    Now we're in a situation where we're not dangerous enough to just be a high pressure DD because our damage without cools is middle-pack at best, but we don't have any distinguishing utility over our healing spec.

    This idiotic change doesn't even begin to address the issue, the fact they're being conservative and are like "we're going to *try* this change" only emphasizes how clueless they truly are.
    Give them a break! Who could have possibly foreseen that our talent tree consisting of 7 former Ret abilities, 1 Holy, and 1 former Prot prot abilities could possibly screw Ret.

    On a serious note, this HoS change is pretty amazing for 3s and 5s... but it's mehasaurus blehX for 2s and RBGs.
    Last edited by Tangra; 2013-01-31 at 04:58 AM.

  13. #13
    just remember, ret is the easiest train target in the game (still) with this "buff"

    no sustained damage buffs

    no survivability help

    just a pointless magic dispel (on a LONG cooldown) that wont change anything.

    why not just give us cleanse back?

  14. #14
    Scarab Lord Valarius's Avatar
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    I think this just says it all, and someone should point it out on the forum or tweet it.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/tool/tal...!002112!XcaljO

    Scroll down and select Ret, then select to see only "spec*" spells.

    Counting out attacks, which are obviously spec specific what is there? A self-only snare removal, increased healing (not that it matters since they wrecked pvp power for us) and some "standard" melee debuffs (snare/phys/DR)

    It sure is a unique spec.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Porkus View Post
    So... just to make sure we're clear.

    Ghostcrawler believes that giving Ret paladins dispel with a 2 minute cooldown will somehow make them attractive to RBG teams? Really? For fuck sake.
    Ghostcrawler you cant be serious ffs. Really... really...

  16. #16
    Changes for Rets (Paladins)

    - Devotion Aura: Decrease to 2 minutes. And let it affect physical damage. This spell has felt extremely underwhelming this tier with most fights in HoF being physical damage only. It is also on a long enough CD to make it so most times you only use it once throughout the fight. In PvP, it only covers half the incoming damage for 6 seconds every 3 minutes? Come on.

    - This dispel should be attached to Hand of Salvation or purity. Not a spell that already has a big need in rated PvP. It should be closer to 1 minute CD too, not 2 minutes. We also need to be able to use this on ourselves.

    - Ret needs more sustained or shorter CDs on our burst. Every class will have defensive CDs for our burst and our spell graphics make it so obvious when we are pushing CDs that we are easy targets for CC.

    I also find it annoying that our damage and support can be shut down with either a Disarm or silence. Disarmed? No Holy Power for off healing or damage. Silence? Half or spells shut down and no healing, hands, or support.

    2 of the spec only spells are also other spells or talents. Hand of Freedom is a stronger version of Emancipation but not dispellable. Seal of Justice is a weaker version of Burden of Guilt. They need to figure out what to do with Ret and they need to seperate the spells a bit more into the specs. Bring back Seal of Blood with a new effect so ret has its own seal again.

    Guardian being a 5 minute CD is a joke.
    Last edited by Eon Drache; 2013-01-31 at 10:46 AM.

  17. #17
    The good news is that they acknowledged the fact that retribution does not bring enough and cant compete on the same level with others.

    Its to be expected,since so many our Ret's former baseline spells can now be used by all paladin specs or other classes have a improved version of it. The only thing that ret has going for it in a group as a unique spell is the somewhat good offheal.

    This buff will probably change in time, 5.2 is not around the corner and they still have time to test new spells. A 2 min dispell is not a good choice.However bringing back magic dispell for cleanse would probably result in a emancipation nerf or complete removal.

    Imo they should add to our toolkit.

    1 - Give another hand of protection vs magic for RET only
    2- Bake the magic dispell into hand of salvation instead
    3- Make HoF remove stuns,not only that this will add to our survivability but it would help our teammates allot.

    Defense :

    1- Last word back. Its needed and it worked well in Cata. Rewards timing and risk as it only increases the crit chance when below 35%.
    2-Cata Sacred shield back.
    3- A 5% hp heal from TV instead of DS
    4-A 10 to 15% passive damage reduction. For a plate class paladin goes down to easily. Funny since paladin as a class in most games is pretty tanky and defensive.

    Offense :

    1- Lower cooldown on strikes. CS 3,5 sec / Exorcism 10 sec
    2- Increase Censure damage
    3-Increase TV damage
    4- 10 to 15% damage boost on holy power generating abilities
    5- Make HoW a on demand strike. It hits for low damage nowdays. It wont be a issue. If it proves to be OP. Nerf its damage but keep it or even increase its damage ONLY on targets below 20% so it may remain a viable finisher
    6- Divine Purpose baseline with a lower proc chance 10% / 15%. Keep it as a talent with a 25% or 30% proc chance. Yes its higher,but you spend a talent point and it should be worth it. And a talent point for a 30% chance for a extra strike or heal is fair.
    Nerfs : ?

    If the sustained damage buffs would go live. They should reduce Holy avenger to 10% make Wings only benefit Templar's verdict and HoW.

    These are ideas,not all should be implemented at once. Or ret would become to much of a powerhouse. But some would help the spec allot.

  18. #18
    At least we get to be special and will be the only ones who can dispell magic twice in a row (with clemency) without having to wait 8 sec, which could pretty seriously screw up enemy CC... I suppose if used very well this change could be decent.

  19. #19
    priests can do that every 15 seconds

  20. #20
    Stood in the Fire Baenesur's Avatar
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    Put it in Hand of Purity instead:
    Dispells all magical effects and makes the reciever take 40% less DoT damage for the duration. 45 Sec CD.

    Would that make it worth taking over Clemency vs DoT-teams (Aff lock/boomkin etc) ?
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