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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Eon Drache View Post
    Changes for Rets (Paladins)

    - Devotion Aura: Decrease to 2 minutes. And let it affect physical damage. This spell has felt extremely underwhelming this tier with most fights in HoF being physical damage only. It is also on a long enough CD to make it so most times you only use it once throughout the fight. In PvP, it only covers half the incoming damage for 6 seconds every 3 minutes? Come on.

    - This dispel should be attached to Hand of Salvation or purity. Not a spell that already has a big need in rated PvP. It should be closer to 1 minute CD too, not 2 minutes. We also need to be able to use this on ourselves.

    - Ret needs more sustained or shorter CDs on our burst. Every class will have defensive CDs for our burst and our spell graphics make it so obvious when we are pushing CDs that we are easy targets for CC.

    I also find it annoying that our damage and support can be shut down with either a Disarm or silence. Disarmed? No Holy Power for off healing or damage. Silence? Half or spells shut down and no healing, hands, or support.

    2 of the spec only spells are also other spells or talents. Hand of Freedom is a stronger version of Emancipation but not dispellable. Seal of Justice is a weaker version of Burden of Guilt. They need to figure out what to do with Ret and they need to seperate the spells a bit more into the specs. Bring back Seal of Blood with a new effect so ret has its own seal again.

    Guardian being a 5 minute CD is a joke.
    Really agree with all of this, especially the parts bolded.

    Below is my recent contribution to the PTR thread, taht I wanted to share here since it echoes a lot of sentiments in this thread already:

    I was going to chime in while catching up on reading, but I found this post that pretty much covered my bases. I wanted to touch on a few items, as I think Brutus really covered a lot here.

    1)I also appreciate the acknowledgement that ret is in a bad place in terms of PVP viability, however this change is really nothing in the grand scheme. You offer a 2min CD cleanse, which consequently uses one of our only unique abilities for CC break/smart play (BoSac). Cleanse is something Holy already has, AND it can be self-targetted, while BoSac cannot. So, basically, this helps our own survival zero (or even negative, if you count losing the ability to break out of CC) and yields no new utility over a H Pal. I agree with the suggestion to move this to BoSalv, as the button may as well be off your bars in PVP otherwise. Salv CAN be self cast, and we still retain the utility of BoSac this way.

    1.5) I’d also lobby to have HoF return to the stun break, but perhaps for the Ret ONLY. It’d be nice to have it break stuns on allies, but with clemency I can see this perhaps being QQ-fodder. If you REALLY want to be kind, you could have it work like this: Heart of the Crusader (Ret-only passive skill) – Your Hand of Freedom now removes stun effects on the target. Glyph of Freedom (Ret only) – Your HoF now removes stuns AND fears, but only on yourself (will not remove stuns on allies). That’s a situational and fun choice.

    2) I’d also like to see WoG be more of a real heal, instead of its current incarnation as a “delayer of the inevitable”. This could be done in a few ways, but I think that a return to the cooldown+increased heal idea would be worthwhile. Again, this could be ret only (either by talent/skill or by set-bonus) to have WoG now be granted a 100% increase effectiveness, but now has a 10sec CD. OR: Using WOG now requires 3 HoPo, but does not consume them. This effect cannot occur more than once every 10 seconds. The second option would allow back to back WOGs for 3 HoPo every 10 sec, or WOG -> TV if you don’t need as much healing.

    3) Again, agreeing with the above quote, our sustained (in PVP) is laughable. In PVE, it is competitive, but quite boring. Inquisition is incredibly monotonous, lackluster, and easy in PVE, while hugely cumbersome and inefficient in PVP. Giving DP as baseline COULD solve this issue, and would add variety and spice (and increase the skill-cap) in PVE while allowing better Inq/WOG management in PVP. As it sits now, DP is a terribly boring talent, and is rarely taken by any fairly experienced player in PVP OR PVE, due to our reliance on cooldowns to do any damage. HA is just too good (or SW, if PVE), too reliable and I’d say too fun. I’m not asking for a nerf to SW/HA to make them suck on the same level as DP, but I think that giving DP to the spec (or class) as a whole makes more sense overall and would add in a fun element to the spec. There have been many suggestions on what to replace DP with; personally I’d like to see a PASSIVE item in that slot (cause we don’t need any more cooldown buttons!), like Monk Power Strikes: Holy Fury – One of your abilities (AS for prot, Exo for ret, HS for holy) grants an additional Holy Power on use. This, coupled with a baseline DP would give lots of fun to the class, and give a fun choice of talents in the tier for people who DON’T WANT MORE COOLDOWNS, but do want a more complex rotation.

    4) Yes. Sweet baby Jesus yes. We need more survival. I know that GC has postulated that once warrior D stance is toned down, melee will all be more or less equal, and perhaps that is true. However, even if it is, nearly ALL ranged options (cept for our friends, the ele shams) will have a significantly higher amount of passive dmg redux. Plate used to mean something, before everything was homogenized, in that you took less dmg from melee at the cost of being ranged fodder. Now, we get trained by melee and ranged alike, with really nothing to show for it in terms of counters. Bubble is a DEAD SPELL for rets. It is [nearly] instantly removed when used (since it’s our ONLY reliable source of dmg reduction, it is insanely easy to telegraph) by 2 of the most common classes in PVP, while consequently nerfing our damage if it remains up. DivProt needs a glyph to be of any use in RBGs where there is mixed damage, and even so a 20% cooldown is just barely above what ranged classes have PASSIVELY. Also, silence/stun prevents any use of DivProt. This is where the HoF change I suggested above could at least help. If we ARE meant to be the Holy-Warrior, I’d like to see some sort of Retributive ability returned to the Ret spec. This could be a short CD group buff that redirects a portion of damage taken (a la ret aura/E4aE), or an ability that allows the Paladin and/or group’s damage to passively convert a small % of damage done into healing for a few seconds (a la Ancestra Guidance…call it Guidance of the Light or something).

    5) I know this wasn’t discussed above, but I feel compelled to post this here as it’s an idea that I’ve been mulling over anyway in terms of “things Ret can get that will help PVP without affecting PVE at all”:

    Give TV (and/or DS…not sure, DS may be OP) the denounce debuff that H Pal currently gets. Giving TV a debuff on the target that prevents them from critting heals or damage for 5-8 sec would have ZERO effect in a PVE environment, but in PVP it would allow for some pressure relief when we are getting trained, AND/OR some additional pressure when going for the kill on that healer. It makes sense from a class archetype/lore perspective and would be some useful utility to bring a ret for. We already have to talent for a snare (or give up passive damage), something no other melee has to do. We have no hard CC outside of repent (LOL) to help peel. Given that we have a decently high uptime on target, allowing us to reduce pressure on ourselves or teammates via a crit negating debuff would give us some unique, useful utility that may earn us an RBG spot.
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  2. #22
    Mechagnome kleinlax21's Avatar
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    I really like this buff, but I feel that it's most poignant application will be in 2's and using the talent Clemency. I don't think it will have any impact on Ret getting into RBG's, partly because Holy already does this (the problem with Ret to begin with) and also because it's on such a long cooldown. I think it's a good change, but it's not all the change we need.

    As has been stated several times in this thread, adding the Denounce effect to TV/CS would be a good move. Considering Ret is one of the only melee specs in existence without a mortal strike effect, this would be a great move to combat our vulnerabilities of being a good train target and lacking mediocre sustained pressure on healers. I think several other changes need to be made as well:

    1. Remove Guardian (from Ret only at least) and improve sustained damage. Seriously, I hate the design of this cooldown and how easy it is for it to go to waste. "Oh, hey, check out they screaming, glowing dude that Ret just summoned. Better CC him until its gone!"

    2. Have a glyph that removes the graphical effect of Avenging Wrath. Don't get me wrong, I love pushing that button and seeing 4 wings sprout up on my back, but it also prompts the exact same reaction as Guardian: just CC the Ret and wait out his cooldowns.

    3. Increase the damage of Hammer of Wrath in execute range, but not while under the effects of Avenging Wrath. I would like to see this ability become an actual execute, while still maintaining the awesome gameplay element of its usability during wings. Wings as Ret is my favorite cooldown across all my WoW characters to use, primarily because the rotation is so fast-paced and different during AW. I just would like to see the ability hit hard in execute range, instead of doing comparable damage to CS.

    4. Devotion Aura gives 20% physical damage reduction as well as existing effects when used by a Ret Paladin. This was another change I saw earlier in this thread, but I like it all the same. Gives Ret more of that juicy spec-specific utility we so crave.

    I'd like to see all of these changes happen, especially the ones relating to utility, primarily because our damage (or pack thereof) isn't the limiting factor in why we aren't taken to RBG's.
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  3. #23
    I don't think this change is going to help us that much but at least they are admitting they know there is an issue with Ret in rated pvp. I think if more people send Gc messages through Twitter and the WoW forums with better idea they might consider them.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Baenesur View Post
    Put it in Hand of Purity instead:
    Dispells all magical effects and makes the reciever take 40% less DoT damage for the duration. 45 Sec CD.

    Would that make it worth taking over Clemency vs DoT-teams (Aff lock/boomkin etc) ?
    HoPure will also reduce all damage taken by 10%. That plus the 70% makes it a great raid utility AND BG tool.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by jeanbono View Post
    priests can do that every 15 seconds
    Oh right, I forgot they changed mass dispell to remove all harmful effects instead of 1 harmful effect. They flip flopped so much in beta that I lost track. Lol, I still can't believe shadow has access to something like this as dps. Taking out cleanse away was complete nonsense; only we and shadow could dispell magic from allies, and shadow basically even got to keep theirs.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 06:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kleinlax21 View Post
    I really like this buff, but I feel that it's most poignant application will be in 2's and using the talent Clemency. I don't think it will have any impact on Ret getting into RBG's, partly because Holy already does this (the problem with Ret to begin with) and also because it's on such a long cooldown. I think it's a good change, but it's not all the change we need.

    As has been stated several times in this thread, adding the Denounce effect to TV/CS would be a good move. Considering Ret is one of the only melee specs in existence without a mortal strike effect, this would be a great move to combat our vulnerabilities of being a good train target and lacking mediocre sustained pressure on healers. I think several other changes need to be made as well:

    1. Remove Guardian (from Ret only at least) and improve sustained damage. Seriously, I hate the design of this cooldown and how easy it is for it to go to waste. "Oh, hey, check out they screaming, glowing dude that Ret just summoned. Better CC him until its gone!"

    2. Have a glyph that removes the graphical effect of Avenging Wrath. Don't get me wrong, I love pushing that button and seeing 4 wings sprout up on my back, but it also prompts the exact same reaction as Guardian: just CC the Ret and wait out his cooldowns.

    3. Increase the damage of Hammer of Wrath in execute range, but not while under the effects of Avenging Wrath. I would like to see this ability become an actual execute, while still maintaining the awesome gameplay element of its usability during wings. Wings as Ret is my favorite cooldown across all my WoW characters to use, primarily because the rotation is so fast-paced and different during AW. I just would like to see the ability hit hard in execute range, instead of doing comparable damage to CS.

    4. Devotion Aura gives 20% physical damage reduction as well as existing effects when used by a Ret Paladin. This was another change I saw earlier in this thread, but I like it all the same. Gives Ret more of that juicy spec-specific utility we so crave.

    I'd like to see all of these changes happen, especially the ones relating to utility, primarily because our damage (or pack thereof) isn't the limiting factor in why we aren't taken to RBG's.
    Yeah, I love how Blizzard openly admits that Guardian of Ancient Kings is balanced around it's shiny animation. Ghostcrawler even admits that they won't consider messing with the cooldown because they don't want something so shinny on the screen all the time. They should consider turning it into a defensive cooldown, and giving us damage back in some other form.

    The HoS change might be useful in large scale PvP actually. In a high burst situation such as a 5v5 fight (in arena or a bg) two dispels (via clemency) back to back, from a non-healer, can really give you a massive control advantage. However, only a really coordinated and skilled team would be able to pull it off, your average scrub conquest capping RBG isn't going to have to coordination to make good use of it. I think change actually is a massive buff to 5s arena, it's ok in 3s and rbgs if used well... in 2s however a Ret/Healer team is already damn hard to kill, so our survivability didn't really need a huge buff there (unless playing double dps) for 2s we need more offensive tools.
    Last edited by Tangra; 2013-01-31 at 06:54 PM.

  6. #26
    Mechagnome kleinlax21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    Oh right, I forgot they changed mass dispell to remove all harmful effects instead of 1 harmful effect. They flip flopped so much in beta that I lost track. Lol, I still can't believe shadow has access to something like this as dps. Taking out cleanse away was complete nonsense; only we and shadow could dispell magic from allies, and shadow basically even got to keep theirs.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 06:51 PM ----------



    Yeah, I love how Blizzard openly admits that Guardian of Ancient Kings is balanced around it's shiny animation. Ghostcrawler even admits that they won't consider messing with the cooldown because they don't want something so shinny on the screen all the time. They should consider turning it into a defensive cooldown, and giving us damage back in some other form.

    The HoS change might be useful in large scale PvP actually. In a high burst situation such as a 5v5 fight (in arena or a bg) two dispels (via clemency) back to back, from a non-healer, can really give you a massive control advantage. However, only a really coordinated and skilled team would be able to pull it off, your average scrub conquest capping RBG isn't going to have to coordination to make good use of it. I think change actually is a massive buff to 5s arena, it's ok in 3s and rbgs if used well... in 2s however a Ret/Healer team is already damn hard to kill, so our survivability didn't really need a huge buff there (unless playing double dps) for 2s we need more offensive tools.
    Yeah, I was thinking how great it would be for double DPS 2's comps. It's really applicable anywhere your healers are in need of an extra dispel of course, but IMO the change will really shine when you not only need the dispel and damage transferrance effect to keep somebody alive, but also when you (as Ret) will need to be turreting heals into the same target to keep them up.

    I read the first half of his post and had the biggest smile on my face, expecting all manor of fantastic utility buffs until I saw the change itself, whereupon I immediately just walked away from my PC with my head hanging haha. Like you said though, at least they acknowledge that the problem exists, and that they are willing to take steps to rectify it. Here's hoping they can accomplish that by the start of season 14.
    Last edited by kleinlax21; 2013-01-31 at 07:02 PM.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eon Drache View Post
    HoPure will also reduce all damage taken by 10%. That plus the 70% makes it a great raid utility AND BG tool.
    Not really. There aren't many pure DoT classes, especially right now. Afflic might come back a little, but even boomkins don't do more than 30% of their single target damage as a dot.

    I think HoPurity needs to be changed, at least for Ret. They should make that spell cleanse all magic effects on the target, usable while stunned, 30 sec cd, and give 20% damage reduction, like ironbark for Resto druids. That gives us a 30 second cooldown cleanse, mixed with a defensive group utility. Sac is too long of a CD, and clashes with the actual use of sac. And it doesn't really fit the feel of the spell... how is cleansing someone sacrificing myself? Because if this went live, that's all the spell would be used for.

    The only problem with that is the fact that Holy gets it too, but they could make the talent change based on spec like for Druids. Let Holy and Prot keep the current form, maybe let prot get Purity because they are struggling as FC's, but that would probably make them way too strong in PvE.
    Last edited by Valedus; 2013-01-31 at 07:01 PM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Baenesur View Post
    Put it in Hand of Purity instead:
    Dispells all magical effects and makes the reciever take 40% less DoT damage for the duration. 45 Sec CD.

    Would that make it worth taking over Clemency vs DoT-teams (Aff lock/boomkin etc) ?
    It would be pretty hard for it to beat Clemency in Pvp. The ability to use Hand of Freedom and BoP 2 times before dealing with the Cd is amazing. Not to mention that if they go through with this change we will be able to use the new HoS twice aswell.

    I would like to know why we aren't seeing any changes to "Unbreakable spirit"? It is currently the most useless talent in the tree. Maybe they could revamp it to do something better for Ret?

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Not really. There aren't many pure DoT classes, especially right now. Afflic might come back a little, but even boomkins don't do more than 30% of their single target damage as a dot.

    I think HoPurity needs to be changed, at least for Ret. They should make that spell cleanse all magic effects on the target, usable while stunned, 30 sec cd, and give 20% damage reduction, like ironbark for Resto druids. That gives us a 30 second cooldown cleanse, mixed with a defensive group utility. Sac is too long of a CD, and clashes with the actual use of sac. And it doesn't really fit the feel of the spell... how is cleansing someone sacrificing myself? Because if this went live, that's all the spell would be used for.

    The only problem with that is the fact that Holy gets it too, but they could make the talent change based on spec like for Druids. Let Holy and Prot keep the current form, maybe let prot get Purity because they are struggling as FC's, but that would probably make them way too strong in PvE.
    The obvious problem with that is the other two talents would pale in comparison. It can't be tied to a talent. It has to be a baseline solution.

    And I'm pretty sure Clemency doesn't work the way people think it does... the two Hands are not on separate cooldowns. After you use a Hand the third time, the talent might as well not even exist unless you plan to wait 2 cooldowns.
    Last edited by Reith; 2013-01-31 at 07:32 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    I would like to know why we aren't seeing any changes to "Unbreakable spirit"? It is currently the most useless talent in the tree. Maybe they could revamp it to do something better for Ret?
    I really dig the "changes with regard to your spec" talents. As I mentioned above in my (admittedly longwinded) post, I think that giving DP baseline and would help our sustained and add some variety to the rotation in PVE while allowing better Inq/WOG management in PVP. I’d like to see a passive talent replace DP's spot in that slot, like Monk Power Strikes: Holy Fury – One of your abilities (AvShield for prot, Exoc for ret, Holy Shock for holy) grants an additional Holy Power on use. This, coupled with a baseline DP would give lots of fun to the class, and give a fun choice of talents in the tier for people who DON’T WANT MORE COOLDOWNS, but do want a more complex rotation.

    The reason I bring that up, is I'd like to see Unbreakable spirit done the same way:
    Unbreakable Spirit: Using abilities that consume HoPo (not counting DivPurp) reduce the cooldown on your abilities by 1% per HoPo used. Affected abilities: Protection - DivProt, DivShield, LoH.
    Holy - LoH, Divine Plea, Devo Aura.
    Ret - Wings, GoAK, Hand of Sac/Salv (whatever they end up putting our new toy on).

    Basically leaves prot alone, as this is a beast talent for prot. Makes it more useful for the other 2 spec's and forces ret to consider something else except for ONLY clemency.

    Maybe?
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    I really dig the "changes with regard to your spec" talents. As I mentioned above in my (admittedly longwinded) post, I think that giving DP baseline and would help our sustained and add some variety to the rotation in PVE while allowing better Inq/WOG management in PVP. I’d like to see a passive talent replace DP's spot in that slot, like Monk Power Strikes: Holy Fury – One of your abilities (AvShield for prot, Exoc for ret, Holy Shock for holy) grants an additional Holy Power on use. This, coupled with a baseline DP would give lots of fun to the class, and give a fun choice of talents in the tier for people who DON’T WANT MORE COOLDOWNS, but do want a more complex rotation.

    The reason I bring that up, is I'd like to see Unbreakable spirit done the same way:
    Unbreakable Spirit: Using abilities that consume HoPo (not counting DivPurp) reduce the cooldown on your abilities by 1% per HoPo used. Affected abilities: Protection - DivProt, DivShield, LoH.
    Holy - LoH, Divine Plea, Devo Aura.
    Ret - Wings, GoAK, Hand of Sac/Salv (whatever they end up putting our new toy on).

    Basically leaves prot alone, as this is a beast talent for prot. Makes it more useful for the other 2 spec's and forces ret to consider something else except for ONLY clemency.

    Maybe?
    This. I would love if Ret's only CD was wings with maybe a 1 min CD guardian-like +10% strength no pet included cooldown. Wings 15%, 1.5 min cd. Would really make the class less of a IM A CHRISTMAS TREE CC ME! and much more fun for sustained damage, and they can scale us around that. I like the idea of a passive to give more holy power over time vs a cooldown like zealotry.

    I was also thinking, if they want us to have strong heals as Ret (for a dps) why don't they scrap Selfless Healer (makes it way too hard to balance healing on ourselves, because FOL will always be hitting like a truck on allies) and put something else there, and give Ret something like a 15 second CD Holy Shock? I think it was either Cata beta or MoP beta where they were considering it, and it allows us to choose damage or healing without such a huge downside (wasting 3 HP on a WoG or only being able to cast 2 Flash of Lights)
    Just a thought. The problem is that Selfless Healer is necessary for Ret, while monks(who we are pretty similar to us, a melee hybrid) and Enhance (yeah they aren't in a great spot either) can cast their heals instantly. I almost think instant FoL should be back on Art of War and Selfless Healer replaced. Only Ret uses it, and Ret is required to use it.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by kleinlax21 View Post
    2. Have a glyph that removes the graphical effect of Avenging Wrath. Don't get me wrong, I love pushing that button and seeing 4 wings sprout up on my back, but it also prompts the exact same reaction as Guardian: just CC the Ret and wait out his cooldowns.
    This is a ridiculous suggestion. It's like a frost mage asking for a glyph to make his frostbolts invisible so you can't see where they're coming from.

    If you want Wings harder to counter that isn't the way.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    This is a ridiculous suggestion. It's like a frost mage asking for a glyph to make his frostbolts invisible so you can't see where they're coming from.

    If you want Wings harder to counter that isn't the way.
    Yeah, I agree. Removing animation glyphs would have to exist for every cooldown in the game. The point is that cooldowns are supposed to be obvious and look cool. We gain wings, Warriors grow in size, Druid forms change, etc.

  14. #34
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    This change is good but still not enough for us to be so desirable in RBG. As the other mentioned it will be awesome if they buff our sustain dmg ( I don't mind they nerf our crazy burst as long as we have nice sustain pressure dmg I will gladly accept it) and make freedom remove stuns like it used to be but only for Ret.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Yeah, I agree. Removing animation glyphs would have to exist for every cooldown in the game. The point is that cooldowns are supposed to be obvious and look cool. We gain wings, Warriors grow in size, Druid forms change, etc.
    Kind of pointless, you can get addons that warn you of enemy cooldown use anyway, so ultimately the visibility of the wings has absolutely no impact on serious PvP.

  16. #36
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    Still worst PVP spec in the game. Can't kill healers. Can't threaten DPS. No sustained damage outside of CDs at all and terrible defensive abilities compared to other plate classes. I see Warriors QQ that 15% def stance is terrible and Blood Presence is useless...okay guys give them to us or something similar. Why couldn't we have something like that instead of this completely useless ability?
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  17. #37
    Holy mediocre buffs Batman!!!

    "We are considering some other buffs to Ret still. We don't know yet if we will do any or all of these (they are emphatically not promises) but the kind of thing we are considering:

    - Glyph of Blessed Life -- no longer requires Seal of Insight. You can have any Seal or none active, which puts the glyph in Ret's hands.
    - Glyph of Templar's Verdict -- damage reduction triggered by Exorcism (or both) instead. That way you aren't choosing TV over a heal.
    - Light's Hammer -- also snares targets it damages while in range. This one potentially buffs Holy too, but we're not sure that many Holy paladins would give up Prism to take it."

    Not terrible, but not a single one of these gets me all that excited. Maybe if Light's Hammer also made all allies within it's range immune to snares, it would be interesting. But considering how common AoE snares are, this isn't all that great... not to mention we just lost our AoE snare via SoJ and HotR. Pretty much all of these changes are more like fixes that needed to be in way long ago, they are barely buffs.

    Glyph of Blessed life is complete crap even with the change, 1 Holy power every 20 sec at most, and that's if you are hit with those CCs exactly at the 20 sec mark, and on top of that it's a 50% chance... I seriously doubt this glyph would even average 1 holy power per minute under normal conditions.

    Glyph of TV is also really just a much needed fix... losing one of your main defensive buffs when you are already in trouble and have to heal is really dumb design... it's makes it very difficult ever recover from a loss of momentum.
    Last edited by Tangra; 2013-02-01 at 02:07 AM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    Holy mediocre buffs Batman!!!

    "We are considering some other buffs to Ret still. We don't know yet if we will do any or all of these (they are emphatically not promises) but the kind of thing we are considering:

    - Glyph of Blessed Life -- no longer requires Seal of Insight. You can have any Seal or none active, which puts the glyph in Ret's hands.
    - Glyph of Templar's Verdict -- damage reduction triggered by Exorcism (or both) instead. That way you aren't choosing TV over a heal.
    - Light's Hammer -- also snares targets it damages while in range. This one potentially buffs Holy too, but we're not sure that many Holy paladins would give up Prism to take it."

    Not terrible, but not a single one of these gets me all that excited. Maybe if Light's Hammer also made all allies within it's range immune to snares, it would be interesting. But considering how common AoE snares are, this isn't all that great... not to mention we just lost our AoE snare via SoJ and HotR. Pretty much all of these changes are more like fixes that needed to be in way long ago, they are barely buffs.

    Glyph of Blessed life is complete crap even with the change, 1 Holy power every 20 sec at most, and that's if you are hit with those CCs exactly at the 20 sec mark, and on top of that it's a 50% chance... I seriously doubt this glyph would even average 1 holy power per minute under normal conditions.

    Glyph of TV is also really just a much needed fix... losing one of your main defensive buffs when you are already in trouble and have to heal is really dumb design... it's makes it very difficult ever recover from a loss of momentum.
    It's alright if they do multiple minor changes but we still need a group utility ability.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    It's alright if they do multiple minor changes but we still need a group utility ability.
    Yeah I would say the most obvious choice is to make Ret's Devotion Aura a bit better. It could use the Skull Banner/Stormlash treatment or something... in addition to the current effect, maybe it should have all attacks proc some Holy damage for 6 seconds and instantly heal everyone for 20% of their max health.

  20. #40
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    Kind of pointless, you can get addons that warn you of enemy cooldown use anyway, so ultimately the visibility of the wings has absolutely no impact on serious PvP.
    Which anyone who seriously PvP's will have, at least 90% of serious pvpers. I know for damn sure I use it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 09:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    Holy mediocre buffs Batman!!!

    "We are considering some other buffs to Ret still. We don't know yet if we will do any or all of these (they are emphatically not promises) but the kind of thing we are considering:

    - Glyph of Blessed Life -- no longer requires Seal of Insight. You can have any Seal or none active, which puts the glyph in Ret's hands.
    - Glyph of Templar's Verdict -- damage reduction triggered by Exorcism (or both) instead. That way you aren't choosing TV over a heal.
    - Light's Hammer -- also snares targets it damages while in range. This one potentially buffs Holy too, but we're not sure that many Holy paladins would give up Prism to take it."

    Not terrible, but not a single one of these gets me all that excited. Maybe if Light's Hammer also made all allies within it's range immune to snares, it would be interesting. But considering how common AoE snares are, this isn't all that great... not to mention we just lost our AoE snare via SoJ and HotR. Pretty much all of these changes are more like fixes that needed to be in way long ago, they are barely buffs.

    Glyph of Blessed life is complete crap even with the change, 1 Holy power every 20 sec at most, and that's if you are hit with those CCs exactly at the 20 sec mark, and on top of that it's a 50% chance... I seriously doubt this glyph would even average 1 holy power per minute under normal conditions.

    Glyph of TV is also really just a much needed fix... losing one of your main defensive buffs when you are already in trouble and have to heal is really dumb design... it's makes it very difficult ever recover from a loss of momentum.
    The extra TV glyph uptime is nice. As you said, Blessed Life needs a big buff, but that could make holy too good. 20 seconds is too long.
    Light's Hammer change is alright, I guess. Would be nice if they had instead done something like "For Ret, allies inside of Light's Hammer take 10% less damage" or something. AoE snares already exist. =/

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