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  1. #181
    The Lightbringer Tarien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baar View Post
    Can you explain how this IS an exploit? What did they do that isn't normally allowed by mechanics?
    Avoided all damage for a good chunk of a fight.
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  2. #182
    when a few millions of damage just.. dont happen, yeah BOOM, exploit

    Stacking powerstones was also an exploit, as was using flames back on RKM/Grugonim, or dueling to negate the hit requirements on akylios etc etc etc

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Baar View Post
    That doesn't make it an exploit. It might trivialize the fight, but again that is on Trion for not planning ahead.



    Can you explain how this IS an exploit? What did they do that isn't normally allowed by mechanics?
    It is an exploit because it was not intended by the developers. That is the definition of exploit after all. The use of game mechanics in a way not intended by the developers. Trion not planning ahead? It was a simple oversight. These things happen. The fight was intended to have tanks and tank healers, not extra DPS in their spot because a pet takes no damage.

    I also just want to point out. Noone is sitting here saying Trion did not make a mistake. Clearly they did. They let this into the game, possibly knowing about, they at least knew about it on all the other bosses, so when that learned that they probably should have done a quick check on the untested bosses. That is not what is in question here AT ALL. The fact that they took advantage of the mistake on Trion's part IS what is in question. NQ clearly took advantage of something that was an oversight.
    Last edited by Lathais; 2013-02-01 at 05:13 PM.
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  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    It is an exploit because it was not intended by the developers. That is the definition of exploit after all. The use of game mechanics in a way not intended by the developers.
    It's more "intentionally breaking game rules". You can totally come up with some creative strategies for bosses that developers didn't intend for, but still function well within the normal rules of the game. It's breaking the rules of the game (negating/bypassing an entire mechanic, bugging buffs from another fight to remain on you for a fight they weren't intended for ect.) that leads to issues. If the boss is supposed to use an ability that does big AoE damage, but you find a way to bypass it with no negative effects, that's "breaking" the encounter. If there's the negative effect of the boss soft enraging temporarily, that's not really breaking it.

    I know of more than a few fights that probably weren't done the "intentional" way when I was raiding in BC on my prot pali, but we never bypassed any mechanics or abused any outside buffs that weren't meant for the fight.

    It's in Trions court for not fixing the issue if it was reported during testing. They need to make sure to deal with these potential problems. But it's also in the guilds court to use their noggins to realize that, "Hey, this might be overstepping the 'creative use of in-game mechanics' line a bit too much, we should get clarification if we're going to try this to avoid any issuse".

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    It's more "intentionally breaking game rules". You can totally come up with some creative strategies for bosses that developers didn't intend for, but still function well within the normal rules of the game. It's breaking the rules of the game (negating/bypassing an entire mechanic, bugging buffs from another fight to remain on you for a fight they weren't intended for ect.) that leads to issues. If the boss is supposed to use an ability that does big AoE damage, but you find a way to bypass it with no negative effects, that's "breaking" the encounter. If there's the negative effect of the boss soft enraging temporarily, that's not really breaking it.

    I know of more than a few fights that probably weren't done the "intentional" way when I was raiding in BC on my prot pali, but we never bypassed any mechanics or abused any outside buffs that weren't meant for the fight.

    It's in Trions court for not fixing the issue if it was reported during testing. They need to make sure to deal with these potential problems. But it's also in the guilds court to use their noggins to realize that, "Hey, this might be overstepping the 'creative use of in-game mechanics' line a bit too much, we should get clarification if we're going to try this to avoid any issuse".
    In this case, pet was not intended to tank boss. That is the exploit. Yes, there are other creative ways that may hove not been intended, by the definition of the word as it relates to videos games those can be considered exploits as well, though not all exploits are created equal just as all crimes are not created equal. Take Jay Walking and Stealing for example. Jay Walking gets you a warning at best most of the time. There is a busy road here that people Jay Walk on all the time, as cops are driving by, but nothing happens because it's not a big deal. However, take that same cop and have him watch someone steal something, different story. By literal definition of the term though, both are exploiting, one is just not punishable.

    As has been stated in this thread, it was reported on other bosses, this boss was not tested, or at least not that we know of and the people testing it did not report this. I agree with most of what you are saying, but it's hard to have a discussion when people are using the term exploit differently, so by using the wikipedia definition of the word as it applies to video games, it is an exploit.

    An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1]
    Whether an exploit is considered a cheat, or all exploits are cheats, is a matter of widespread debate that varies between genres, games, and other factors
    The pet was used by a player, to their advantage, in a manner not intended by the devs. So it is an exploit. In this case, I personally, though others may choose to disagree(you do not by what you said) it is also a cheat.
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  6. #186
    I never said that it wasn't an exploit, as it was clearly already labeled as such by the developers on earlier fights (Not sure why pets can even taunt bosses).

    I was simply saying that exploits aren't necessarily simply something "unintended" by developers (such as a strat they didn't forsee), but things that break the rules/mechanics of the fight or things like bringing in fight specific buffs to a fight they aren't supposed to work on.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    I never said that it wasn't an exploit, as it was clearly already labeled as such by the developers on earlier fights (Not sure why pets can even taunt bosses).

    I was simply saying that exploits aren't necessarily simply something "unintended" by developers (such as a strat they didn't forsee), but things that break the rules/mechanics of the fight or things like bringing in fight specific buffs to a fight they aren't supposed to work on.
    As per the definition of exploit, as related to video games, if it was not intended it is an exploit. Whether or not it is a cheat is an entirely different matter.
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  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    As per the definition of exploit, as related to video games, if it was not intended it is an exploit. Whether or not it is a cheat is an entirely different matter.
    That's in more directed at restricted games (i.e. single player games for the most part, especially linear single player games). In MMO's developers can't predict every single strategy that will be used on a given fight. There are going to be numerous strategies that are created that the developers never though of or "intended", but are perfectly legitimate as they don't bypass/break any of the fights mechanics.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    That's in more directed at restricted games (i.e. single player games for the most part, especially linear single player games). In MMO's developers can't predict every single strategy that will be used on a given fight. There are going to be numerous strategies that are created that the developers never though of or "intended", but are perfectly legitimate as they don't bypass/break any of the fights mechanics.
    Funny that when you say it is aimed at single player, yet when typinf Exploit into wikipedia the link I clicked is online games and one of the examples further down the page is WoW. They are legitimate in the fact that they are not cheating, yes, I agree with you there. However, we are now simply arguing semantics, which is really not helping anyone.
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  10. #190
    I don't play Rift, but this thread keeps popping up in the "Recent" threads at the top of MMO-C.

    edgecrusher suggests, "developers can't predict every single strategy that will be used on a given fight". Isn't it pretty common practice by now that pets should not be able to tank boss fights?

    Even Blizzard makes those mistakes still, so it isn't unheard of. Using a pet to tank something like adds on Heroic Nefarian is fair game. But people who used a pet to tank say, Ultraxion, are in violation. Why didn't Trion just make pets unable to taunt bosses? That seems like a common sense thing?

  11. #191
    What's considered an exploit in one game might not be considered an exploit in another. Trion considers pet tanking Regulos an exploit. That doesn't mean that using a pet to tank a raid boss in WoW would necessarily be considered an exploit. Like I keep saying the term exploit is relative and not some set standard objective term like some people in this thread are claiming.

    Blizzard just recently put out a very informative watercooler on their blog about raid tuning, exploits, and creative use of game mechanics actually. The blog post was very detailed and went in depth into different things that people were doing in current raid content that was not expected by the developers. There was certainly a much more nuanced view of the situation than a picture of a duck saying if it feels like an exploit it is an exploit.

    To throw out a few examples of things that were considered exploits in other games:

    1.) Kripp was perman-banned(ban was later rescinded) from GW2 for streaming an exploit. The exploit he was punished for streaming? He bought some items from a vendor, crafted something, then vendored the crafted item for a profit. Arenanet considered that an exploit because he was making too much profit off that item.

    2.) During SWTOR launch, multiple players were warned(people claimed they got banned for it, though I never saw proof of that) for exploiting the AH by buying lots of cheap items and then relisting them for higher prices.


    Different companies have different views on the situation and just because one company considers something an exploit does not mean people won't disagree that assessment.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaley View Post
    Why didn't Trion just make pets unable to taunt bosses? That seems like a common sense thing?
    We're starting to come into some strange age where developers can do no wrong as their fearless champions white knight for them without being put on the payroll. I don't know how we 180 so quickly to villainize players when developers are at fault. It's a trend evidinced very strongly in other games recently too.

    It's pretty disgusting.
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  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    1.) Kripp was perman-banned(ban was later rescinded) from GW2 for streaming an exploit. The exploit he was punished for streaming? He bought some items from a vendor, crafted something, then vendored the crafted item for a profit. Arenanet considered that an exploit because he was making too much profit off that item.
    That was an item that was being sold for well under what it should have been, and was clearly a bug. Kripp and many others were abusing the miss-priced item by buying it, breaking it down and then selling the broken down components for dramatic profits on the Black Lion Market. It was fairly obvious that the pricing on the item (A 2H sword sold for Karma) was a bug and well under what it should have been selling for, so all those who engaged in actively purchasing tons of them to gain massive profits got banned. The ban was later rescinded on anyone who contacted ArenaNet about it and deleted their ill-gotten gains.

    Again, blame lies in both parties. ArenaNet should have caught he error in pricing, and players should have been aware enough to realize that was an incorrect price. It was pretty obviously an exploit.

    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    2.) During SWTOR launch, multiple players were warned(people claimed they got banned for it, though I never saw proof of that) for exploiting the AH by buying lots of cheap items and then relisting them for higher prices.
    If that did happen (I read the GM response about farming trololol), that's beyond foolish. SWTOR is unique in many ways, and this would be them continuing their streak of being...unique.


    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    Different companies have different views on the situation and just because one company considers something an exploit does not mean people won't disagree that assessment.
    Totally agree, but there are many times where it's not even a question of whether it's an exploit or not. I can think of numerous fights in WoW that were exploited where there is no way you could think of the strategies/tactics used as anything other than an exploit (LK first downing with the bombs keeping the side platforms up).

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    That was an item that was being sold for well under what it should have been, and was clearly a bug. Kripp and many others were abusing the miss-priced item by buying it, breaking it down and then selling the broken down components for dramatic profits on the Black Lion Market. It was fairly obvious that the pricing on the item (A 2H sword sold for Karma) was a bug and well under what it should have been selling for, so all those who engaged in actively purchasing tons of them to gain massive profits got banned. The ban was later rescinded on anyone who contacted ArenaNet about it and deleted their ill-gotten gains.
    Kripp wasn't banned for the karma weapon thing. He was streaming a method he found to sell some cooked food for a decent profit.

  15. #195
    The Lightbringer Tarien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    We're starting to come into some strange age where developers can do no wrong as their fearless champions white knight for them without being put on the payroll. I don't know how we 180 so quickly to villainize players when developers are at fault. It's a trend evidinced very strongly in other games recently too.

    It's pretty disgusting.
    Lol, this post makes me laugh.

    Trion can do plenty wrong, I have a bunch of complaints/suggestions but at the end of the day they're not the ones exploiting obviously unintended mechanics to bypass the hardest raid content for personal gain, nor are they using this exploit to steal server firsts for every other shard nor are they lying through their back teeth about what they are doing and then bragging about it when exposed - that's all on NQ.

    Your grip on what has actually happened is practically non-existent, if you had read any of the posts on the official forums and were even marginally aware of NQ's behavior both past and present you would understand why people are taking the stance that they are.
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  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    We're starting to come into some strange age where developers can do no wrong as their fearless champions white knight for them without being put on the payroll. I don't know how we 180 so quickly to villainize players when developers are at fault. It's a trend evidinced very strongly in other games recently too.

    It's pretty disgusting.
    Noone said developers can make no mistakes. Please, show me where that was said. What has been said, repeatedly, is that yes, Trion made a mistake. It happens. It was a simple oversight. Now when players choose to take advantage of that mistake is where it becomes an exploit.

    Fault is not what is at question here, both sides are guilty of being at fault, however, one is understandable and the other is not.

    Say I am walking behind someone and I see them drop their wallet. If I pick up the wallet and max out their credit card.

    Who is at fault? The person for dropping their wallet or me for picking it up and using it? Both. However, who committed the crime? Me.

    I see noone White Knighting in this thread saying that Trion can do no wrong. I do see people saying they messed up, but it is understandable. In a game this huge where so many different things that different people are in charge of interact in different ways, oversights happen. Yes, Trion fucked up. Yes, NQ took advantage of that fuck up. Both sides made mistakes and both sides look bad.
    Last edited by Lathais; 2013-02-01 at 07:18 PM.
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  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    We're starting to come into some strange age where developers can do no wrong as their fearless champions white knight for them without being put on the payroll. I don't know how we 180 so quickly to villainize players when developers are at fault. It's a trend evidinced very strongly in other games recently too.

    It's pretty disgusting.
    I'm inclined to agree with you. I don't know that I find it disgusting, but I absolutely find it to be baffling that some people are out for blood from No Quarter while excusing the huge oversight from Trion on this one. Obviously the players were wrong for using this and not bug reporting it as soon as they noticed, but Trion really dropped the ball on this one.

    People can argue about the definition of an exploit all they want. If just doing something within the rules of the game's mechanics that wasn't intended by developers is an exploit, then about half the bosses in every MMO ever have been exploited and a lot of what becomes "THE" way of doing a piece of content in MMOs is an exploit.

    Now, back in say WoW when that guild edited a game file to bypass half of a raid, that was an exploit. That was something that a person knowingly and willingly had to exploit. If you pull a group of mobs 7 rooms away from where they spawn and it causes them to bug out and allows you to skip content, exploit. If you find a way to dupe an item or get rewarded from a boss twice, exploit. Figuring out that your pet can do exactly what it's designed to do and this enables you to make a boss fight easier because it wasn't tested properly? Well ...

    I mean Trion can call it an exploit and that's fine, but right about now they're kicking themselves because they know, or hopefully they know, that this was a huge oversight on their part. If you program pets to be immune to types of damage, and then you don't make sure that said pets can't be used to tank a fight that relies on that kind of damage, that's a really big oversight.

    If you don't properly test your content and your content is delivered to highly motivated individuals competing for world firsts and such, they WILL find a way to break it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Noone said developers can make no mistakes. Please, show me where that was said. What has been said, repeatedly, is that yes, Trion made a mistake. It happens. It was a simple oversight. Now when players choose to take advantage of that mistake is where it becomes an exploit.

    Fault is not what is at question here, both sides are guilty of being at fault, however, one is understandable and the other is not.

    Say I am walking behind someone and I see them drop their wallet. If I pick up the wallet and max out their credit card who is at fault? The person for dropping their wallet or me for picking it up and using it? Both. However, who committed the crime? Me.
    Your analogy doesn't really translate well to the situation at hand, but that aside ... I'd say it's more understandable for a group of highly motivated and creative players to find creative ways, with the tools that they're given in-game, to figure out the tactic and put it to use. Especially when you consider that another MMO had a similar issue, there is really no understanding how Trion let this one slip by.

  18. #198
    The Lightbringer Tarien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Say I am walking behind someone and I see them drop their wallet. If I pick up the wallet and max out their credit card who is at fault? The person for dropping their wallet or me for picking it up and using it? Both. However, who committed the crime? Me.
    Good example.
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  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    Kripp wasn't banned for the karma weapon thing. He was streaming a method he found to sell some cooked food for a decent profit.
    Ah, that was a second banning. I only remembered him being banned for the Karma weapon thing. Learned about the other banning and yeah, that's super shady on ArenaNet's part. Do not like that kind of behavior as there's no indication that behavior isn't intended : /

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    I'm inclined to agree with you. I don't know that I find it disgusting, but I absolutely find it to be baffling that some people are out for blood from No Quarter while excusing the huge oversight from Trion on this one. Obviously the players were wrong for using this and not bug reporting it as soon as they noticed, but Trion really dropped the ball on this one.
    Im just gonna go ahead and say that one of the Alpha testing guilds reported the issue of pets being immune to cleaves, Trion said they were looking into it, and they did nothing to fix it.

    No Quarter didnt beta test either.

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