when a few millions of damage just.. dont happen, yeah BOOM, exploit
Stacking powerstones was also an exploit, as was using flames back on RKM/Grugonim, or dueling to negate the hit requirements on akylios etc etc etc
I also just want to point out. Noone is sitting here saying Trion did not make a mistake. Clearly they did. They let this into the game, possibly knowing about, they at least knew about it on all the other bosses, so when that learned that they probably should have done a quick check on the untested bosses. That is not what is in question here AT ALL. The fact that they took advantage of the mistake on Trion's part IS what is in question. NQ clearly took advantage of something that was an oversight.
Last edited by Lathais; 2013-02-01 at 05:13 PM.
I know of more than a few fights that probably weren't done the "intentional" way when I was raiding in BC on my prot pali, but we never bypassed any mechanics or abused any outside buffs that weren't meant for the fight.
It's in Trions court for not fixing the issue if it was reported during testing. They need to make sure to deal with these potential problems. But it's also in the guilds court to use their noggins to realize that, "Hey, this might be overstepping the 'creative use of in-game mechanics' line a bit too much, we should get clarification if we're going to try this to avoid any issuse".
As has been stated in this thread, it was reported on other bosses, this boss was not tested, or at least not that we know of and the people testing it did not report this. I agree with most of what you are saying, but it's hard to have a discussion when people are using the term exploit differently, so by using the wikipedia definition of the word as it applies to video games, it is an exploit.
The pet was used by a player, to their advantage, in a manner not intended by the devs. So it is an exploit. In this case, I personally, though others may choose to disagree(you do not by what you said) it is also a cheat.Whether an exploit is considered a cheat, or all exploits are cheats, is a matter of widespread debate that varies between genres, games, and other factors
I never said that it wasn't an exploit, as it was clearly already labeled as such by the developers on earlier fights (Not sure why pets can even taunt bosses).
I was simply saying that exploits aren't necessarily simply something "unintended" by developers (such as a strat they didn't forsee), but things that break the rules/mechanics of the fight or things like bringing in fight specific buffs to a fight they aren't supposed to work on.
I don't play Rift, but this thread keeps popping up in the "Recent" threads at the top of MMO-C.
edgecrusher suggests, "developers can't predict every single strategy that will be used on a given fight". Isn't it pretty common practice by now that pets should not be able to tank boss fights?
Even Blizzard makes those mistakes still, so it isn't unheard of. Using a pet to tank something like adds on Heroic Nefarian is fair game. But people who used a pet to tank say, Ultraxion, are in violation. Why didn't Trion just make pets unable to taunt bosses? That seems like a common sense thing?
What's considered an exploit in one game might not be considered an exploit in another. Trion considers pet tanking Regulos an exploit. That doesn't mean that using a pet to tank a raid boss in WoW would necessarily be considered an exploit. Like I keep saying the term exploit is relative and not some set standard objective term like some people in this thread are claiming.
Blizzard just recently put out a very informative watercooler on their blog about raid tuning, exploits, and creative use of game mechanics actually. The blog post was very detailed and went in depth into different things that people were doing in current raid content that was not expected by the developers. There was certainly a much more nuanced view of the situation than a picture of a duck saying if it feels like an exploit it is an exploit.
To throw out a few examples of things that were considered exploits in other games:
1.) Kripp was perman-banned(ban was later rescinded) from GW2 for streaming an exploit. The exploit he was punished for streaming? He bought some items from a vendor, crafted something, then vendored the crafted item for a profit. Arenanet considered that an exploit because he was making too much profit off that item.
2.) During SWTOR launch, multiple players were warned(people claimed they got banned for it, though I never saw proof of that) for exploiting the AH by buying lots of cheap items and then relisting them for higher prices.
Different companies have different views on the situation and just because one company considers something an exploit does not mean people won't disagree that assessment.
It's pretty disgusting.
Again, blame lies in both parties. ArenaNet should have caught he error in pricing, and players should have been aware enough to realize that was an incorrect price. It was pretty obviously an exploit.
Trion can do plenty wrong, I have a bunch of complaints/suggestions but at the end of the day they're not the ones exploiting obviously unintended mechanics to bypass the hardest raid content for personal gain, nor are they using this exploit to steal server firsts for every other shard nor are they lying through their back teeth about what they are doing and then bragging about it when exposed - that's all on NQ.
Your grip on what has actually happened is practically non-existent, if you had read any of the posts on the official forums and were even marginally aware of NQ's behavior both past and present you would understand why people are taking the stance that they are.
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Fault is not what is at question here, both sides are guilty of being at fault, however, one is understandable and the other is not.
Say I am walking behind someone and I see them drop their wallet. If I pick up the wallet and max out their credit card.
Who is at fault? The person for dropping their wallet or me for picking it up and using it? Both. However, who committed the crime? Me.
I see noone White Knighting in this thread saying that Trion can do no wrong. I do see people saying they messed up, but it is understandable. In a game this huge where so many different things that different people are in charge of interact in different ways, oversights happen. Yes, Trion fucked up. Yes, NQ took advantage of that fuck up. Both sides made mistakes and both sides look bad.
Last edited by Lathais; 2013-02-01 at 07:18 PM.
People can argue about the definition of an exploit all they want. If just doing something within the rules of the game's mechanics that wasn't intended by developers is an exploit, then about half the bosses in every MMO ever have been exploited and a lot of what becomes "THE" way of doing a piece of content in MMOs is an exploit.
Now, back in say WoW when that guild edited a game file to bypass half of a raid, that was an exploit. That was something that a person knowingly and willingly had to exploit. If you pull a group of mobs 7 rooms away from where they spawn and it causes them to bug out and allows you to skip content, exploit. If you find a way to dupe an item or get rewarded from a boss twice, exploit. Figuring out that your pet can do exactly what it's designed to do and this enables you to make a boss fight easier because it wasn't tested properly? Well ...
I mean Trion can call it an exploit and that's fine, but right about now they're kicking themselves because they know, or hopefully they know, that this was a huge oversight on their part. If you program pets to be immune to types of damage, and then you don't make sure that said pets can't be used to tank a fight that relies on that kind of damage, that's a really big oversight.
If you don't properly test your content and your content is delivered to highly motivated individuals competing for world firsts and such, they WILL find a way to break it.