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  1. #201
    People keep focusing on the Regulos kill and ignoring their Matriarch exploit. Even if Trion didn't consider their "creative use of game machanics" an exploit on Regulos they still would be guilty of exploiting a prior encounter required to even access Regulos. LoS'ing a boss to negate all tank/raid damage so the mob just stand there and doesn't attack is a textbook example of exploiting.

    I would also like to note, since some people seem to misunderstand the thread title. The NQ kill was not world first, it was NA first and the only reason there is even a distinction is because Rift doesn't patch NA and EU at the same time.

    They exploit then taunt the community with trolls and griefing then get butthurt when the community demands action be taken. They made their bed and Trion is making them lie in it.
    Last edited by AddictVioarr; 2013-02-01 at 07:31 PM.

  2. #202
    The Lightbringer Tarien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by domey22 View Post
    Im just gonna go ahead and say that one of the Alpha testing guilds reported the issue of pets being immune to cleaves, Trion said they were looking into it, and they did nothing to fix it.

    No Quarter didnt beta test either.
    There was no external testing of Regulos, so that wouldn't have been reported, and there are plenty of other Alpha testers confirming they saw NQ members in Alpha, so.... you're wrong on both counts.
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  3. #203
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    I'm inclined to agree with you. I don't know that I find it disgusting
    It's not just this incident. Without naming and shaming, there are mobs of these knights forming behind every developer who is dropping the ball. It's one thing to have respect for a company (like Trion or Blizzard) but to go out of your way to turn everyone who criticizes them, points out their flaws, shows holes in the game into villains, lazy people, and so on is what is disgusting.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Your analogy doesn't really translate well to the situation at hand
    No kidding. Especially, given the analogy, that in a raiding perspective it's everyone's job to try and get the wallet. So we should blame the person who received their wallet from it being dropped, but not those that physically mug the owner for it? If they used a trained parrot to lift the wallet out of the pocket, are they now exploiting by using their pet?

    I mean...pickpocketing parrots are creative use of mechanics for sure.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 02:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by AddictVioarr View Post
    People keep focusing on the Regulos kill and ignoring their Matriarch exploit. Even if Trion didn't consider their "creative use of game machanics" an exploit on Regulos they still would be guilty of exploiting a prior encounter required to even access Regulos. LoS'ing a boss to negate all tank/raid damage so the mob just stand there and doesn't attack is a textbook example of exploiting.
    And most people who are arguing how stupid calling using a pet an exploit would agree with you on that. I agree with that. Using a pet is not equal to bugging a boss out to literally not do anything.

    As an aside...it's really funny how many people from the Rift boards needed to create accounts here just to continue blasting this point from either side.
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  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    It's not just this incident. Without naming and shaming, there are mobs of these knights forming behind every developer who is dropping the ball. It's one thing to have respect for a company (like Trion or Blizzard) but to go out of your way to turn everyone who criticizes them, points out their flaws, shows holes in the game into villains, lazy people, and so on is what is disgusting.
    In relation to this thread I once again ask you to show me where anyone is white knighting or turning on people who are pointing out the flaw. All of us here are in agreement. Trion dropped the ball. They fucked up. They missed something really simple that should have been caught. Especially seeing as it was pointed out on other bosses in the same raid, they should have checked all bosses. No one here is calling the people pointing that out villains. There is complete agreement on that part.

    What is being debated is the fact that 2 wrongs do not make a right. Trion screwed up, yes, but NQ did not have to take advantage of it.

    No kidding. Especially, given the analogy, that in a raiding perspective it's everyone's job to try and get the wallet. So we should blame the person who received their wallet from it being dropped, but not those that physically mug the owner for it? If they used a trained parrot to lift the wallet out of the pocket, are they now exploiting by using their pet?

    I mean...pickpocketing parrots are creative use of mechanics for sure.
    No, the object was never to take someone else's wallet, the object was simply to earn money and put gas in my car. By stealing it from someone who made a mistake instead of getting a job, I committed a crime.
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  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    In relation to this thread I once again ask you to show me where anyone is white knighting or turning on people who are pointing out the flaw.
    He isn't gonna do that, it's counter productive to his repetitive argument that relies on ignoring all evidence to the contrary. Some peoples little worlds would collapse if they had to admit the truth
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  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Slipmat View Post
    Unfortunately today's "gamers" are nothing to what proper MMO gamers were "back in the day", yes i'm that old

    This goal to get to see virtual, different looking pixels first before anyone else would have Sigmund Freud writing thesis after thesis on the psychology of what drives these people, but from the past ten years on, nearly all MMO's have suffered kool kids trying to find any possible exploit or "clever use of game mechanics"

    Even the big elephant in the room, WoW wasn't immune, a whole Guild got banned for exploiting C'thun by using an exploit to make the floors above his chamber bug out and they could drop right down to boss and ignore nearly all the trash/other bosses right up to when a lot of the top Guilds got a week's ban from exploiting loot drops in the LFR system.

    We'll just have to wait and see what Trion does, a week's ban, lifetime ban? who knows or who will care is probably the best question

    You mean gamers like the ones exploiting the walls in WoW vanilla to get world firsts?

    Gamers always tried to exploit any game with a sort of achihevemtn to do it first, since they were created.

    Its not about today's gamers, its a problem of top competitive gamers. They dont care how, they just want to win the competition.

    It also doesnt happen in games only. Sports is a greate xample, with people trying to break the rules for an advantage in every single discipline out there.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Its not about today's gamers, its a problem of top competitive gamers. They dont care how, they just want to win the competition.
    What competition? It's only in MMOs where, for some bizarre reason, people think killing a boss first is some big deal. You don't see CoD forums filled with people claiming to be world first to beat the game. When a new Mario game comes out, you don't see people rushing to be the first to beat the first boss. Even with WoW, no one really care who beats a boss first except for a small group of the player base. Johnny Average Player isn't going to care who beat the new raid boss first.

  8. #208
    Elemental Lord Baar's Avatar
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    Ok, will someone explain this to me.


    Say I got my guild to come from wow and raid here. We go along clearing bosses and try to have a pet tank one of the bosses. Since our goal is to make the fight as easy as possible.


    How would we know we are exploiting. What are we exploiting? If you say it's because I'm making the fight easier well isn't that the goal?


    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    What's considered an exploit in one game might not be considered an exploit in another. Trion considers pet tanking Regulos an exploit. That doesn't mean that using a pet to tank a raid boss in WoW would necessarily be considered an exploit. Like I keep saying the term exploit is relative and not some set standard objective term like some people in this thread are claiming.
    I understand trion might not want this to happen, but again they should make it not able to happen. Removing pets from boss mobs threat table would be the easiest fix. I don't care if trion flat out called it a hacking cheat. It's not.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    In relation to this thread I once again ask you to show me where anyone is white knighting or turning on people who are pointing out the flaw.
    That's naming and shaming, which is against forum rules, so I doubt it will happen. He's correct though, if you look at any game there are fans that will defend "their game" and the developers no matter what. It's an issue but sadly I doubt much will be done to address it.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    That's naming and shaming, which is against forum rules, so I doubt it will happen. He's correct though, if you look at any game there are fans that will defend "their game" and the developers no matter what. It's an issue but sadly I doubt much will be done to address it.
    It is true, but even staunch defenders of Trion in this particular thread are admitting and saying Trion made an oversight. That's not the argument at hand. The argument at hand is whether or not knowingly abusing that oversight is cheating, which Trion has said it is.
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  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 02:36 PM ----------

    And most people who are arguing how stupid calling using a pet an exploit would agree with you on that. I agree with that. Using a pet is not equal to bugging a boss out to literally not do anything.

    As an aside...it's really funny how many people from the Rift boards needed to create accounts here just to continue blasting this point from either side.
    Not sure why it's funny when members of this community posted on the Rift forums asking people to join and participate in this thread.

  12. #212
    So I guess I can ask again..

    Rift has been out long enough, now. Why are pets even able to taunt bosses? Surely there have been bosses previous to this one where Pet Tanking would be an easy way to finish a boss? Did Trion leave Pet Tanking bosses in the game after those particular instances?

  13. #213
    Bloodsail Admiral Chrispotter's Avatar
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    The pet tanking thing seems like clever use of game mechanics. But i dont play rift so IDK.

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by AddictVioarr View Post
    Not sure why it's funny when members of this community posted on the Rift forums asking people to join and participate in this thread.
    That is exactly why.

    Rally to me children! Protect my opinion so we may win it to be true and just and right! Regardless of what opinion you hold. It's like some odd internet battle spilling into foreign lands. I like debating as much as the next person on here, but to think of using my rally (Rift humor, lol) to call my mates to the battle...it's quite humorous to me.
    Last edited by Kelimbror; 2013-02-01 at 08:56 PM.
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  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaley View Post
    So I guess I can ask again..

    Rift has been out long enough, now. Why are pets even able to taunt bosses? Surely there have been bosses previous to this one where Pet Tanking would be an easy way to finish a boss? Did Trion leave Pet Tanking bosses in the game after those particular instances?
    I do not believe this has happened in Rift before due to all bosses also dealing ST damage as well as an AoE and it is only AoE damage that pets take little/no damage from. I could be wrong as I was late to the Rift party, but either way, it happened. It was a mistake on Trions part and NQ abused that mistake.
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  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaley View Post
    So I guess I can ask again..

    Rift has been out long enough, now. Why are pets even able to taunt bosses? Surely there have been bosses previous to this one where Pet Tanking would be an easy way to finish a boss? Did Trion leave Pet Tanking bosses in the game after those particular instances?
    Honestly, I don't see why that's possible, it shouldn't be the case. There are too many potential issues (like the ones being discussed in this thread) that arise when you allow pets to tank bosses.

  17. #217
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarien View Post
    Yes but why were pets given those abilities? Was it to make them viable in raids, or to tank raid bosses? If you like the above poster cannot use a little common sense and see that this use of pets was clearly unintended, then again I suspect you're just here to provoke people.



    Except that doing so gave no personal gain in your example. NQ on the other hand have used this loophole to beat a boss they otherwise couldn't have beaten, and earn loot/titles/whatever they otherwise would not have gotten. They've then gone on to use this loophole to take the server first achievements on a number of other servers, taking even more that again they are not entitled to and depriving others.

    Time to accept that what NQ did was wrong, people.
    Actually, not losing raid members on the tight enrage V&T had WAS a huge advantage. Bring 2-3 priests and you instantly gain that much more in saved lives.

    But to put it more simply for you, Majordomo Staghelm was once tankable by pets. It mitigated huge, unruly amounts of AoE damage and made the fight much easier.

    Blizzard, using reasonable judgement, recognized that the pets were designed that way, so it wasn't an exploit, but they didn't intend for that to be possible. So they FIXED it.

    Common sense and a decent moral compass is enough to see what they did was in the parameters of acceptable play, whether Tirion intended it or not. Instead of crucifying this guild, the whiners here need to just accept that Tirion made a mistake.

    Now, as for their other "exploits?" Well, those seem like clear violations because it couldn't be done with NORMAL play. Using a pet is normal play, blame Tirion for allowing it to happen the same way blizzard is at fault for Majordomo.

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  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    That is exactly why.

    Rally to me children! Protect my opinion so we may win it to be true and just and right! Regardless of what opinion you hold. It's like some odd internet battle spilling into foreign lands. I like debating as much as the next person on here, but to think of using my rally (Rift humor, lol) to call my mates to the battle...it's quite humorous to me.
    This is predominantly a WoW forum, why is it funny to ask people that actually play Rift to come post to counteract the wealth of people noting that they don't even play Rift? You imply that the hypothetical opinion is incorrect and requires support from people that you seem to believe are not welcome here. I would argue that some people are afraid of another perspective penetrating their bubble. The hostility toward people some view as invaders and treat like they somehow do not belong on a MMO forum for a game they play is not something I find "funny." If you want to be a part of a community that is exclusive then perhaps you should create one that is private. You haven't even been a member of this community for a year, who are you to talk down to people for being new here.

  19. #219
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    Honestly, I don't see why that's possible, it shouldn't be the case. There are too many potential issues (like the ones being discussed in this thread) that arise when you allow pets to tank bosses.
    I would think so as well. If the are so against having pets tank bosses that they want to label it an exploit, then they shouldn't have it be possible at all.

    Other games would never have a boss do pure AOE's b/c their pets are similarly resilient. In fact, you can use the hunter/ranger to heal whatever modicum of damage they do take, effectively freeing a tank healer for a dps and the tank for a dps. I don't see this issue in any other games.

    The fact that there are numerous ways to fix the issue and none of them were done is pretty lame. I love Trion and their development, but they are clearly the ones at fault for this boss and if that guild hadn't exploited anything else I would have had a very different view of the company as a whole.
    BAD WOLF

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    Instead of crucifying this guild, the whiners here need to just accept that Tirion made a mistake.
    I may get in trouble for this, but I ask again, who is not accepting Trion made a mistake. They did. They clearly did and have basically admitted as much. The thing is, when someone makes a mistake, someone else taking advantage of it is plain wrong.

    I do not see any of the people saying the guild should be punished, with varying degrees of punishment ranging from perma-bans to simply taking away rewards achieved in this manner, saying Trion did not make a mistake. Just people saying that while Trion did in fact make a mistake, NQ took advantage of the mistake in an inappropriate way.
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