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  1. #261
    Scarab Lord Zhangfei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    I said earlier that hate speech needs to be defended out of necessity, not exactly out of willingness.
    If the action is defensible, it means you support and accept it (unless you're playing the Devil's advocate in a logical or legal debate.)

    And once again, religion is not an eligible topic on these boards.

    Free speech is a right. Hate speech is not part of that, just like libel, defamation, endangerment, incitement to cause violence, conspiracy and slander aren't.
    In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.
    Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.
    This is why people ban guns. Gun supporters don't know what guns are.

  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by DakonBlackblade View Post
    How is a facebook coment any diferent from sayng it yourself on "real life" ?
    This is not racial harassment, he said this on a facebook banter page - A page that is made for the 'banter' between sets of fans, this was a comment not aimed at anyone. He just said it, it wasn't sent straight to Demba Ba, so it's not harassment...

    Awesome signature by JustintimeSS

  3. #263
    Pandaren Monk Lora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KunkkaTheAdmiral View Post
    It's racism in the end, even if it happened through the media called facebook.

    If its up to me racists should be punished as hard as possible, there is no excuse for being a racist of any sort.
    You have the right to hate, not to hurt. Words mean nothing unless one allows them to mean something. Not saying racism is a good thing because it mostly isnt but if they are just running their mouth then let them. If they take action on their words or threaten violence, that is a separate matter.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 07:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    If the action is defensible, it means you support and accept it (unless you're playing the Devil's advocate in a logical or legal debate.)

    And once again, religion is not an eligible topic on these boards.

    Free speech is a right. Hate speech is not part of that, just like libel, defamation, endangerment, incitement to cause violence, conspiracy and slander aren't.
    Free speech is not limited to the speech that we like and nothing else. You need to grasp the bigger picture. You can't be for freedom of speech and yet want to make hate speech banned. It's a necessary evil, if you will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thedead241 View Post
    I'm a prostitute. Men like to tell me secrets. And women.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robozerim View Post
    Also....my condolences to whoever is Lora's lover. You got matched up with a madman, regardless of his alignment.

  4. #264
    Legendary! Tommo's Avatar
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    The only reason you get arrested for racial abuse on the internet is if you get reported by hundreds of people until the police have to intervene. Obviously whatever this guy said must have offended a few hundred idiots. Regardless take responsibility for your actions, just cause its the internet doesnt mean your allowed to be racist, not that it really harms anyone if you make a comment.

    Also yeah we here in Britain get whipped on the street for dare speaking up against our gov'nahs! Get a fucking grip people, theres a difference between free speech and hate speech.

  5. #265
    Scarab Lord Zhangfei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lora View Post
    Free speech is not limited to the speech that we like and nothing else. You need to grasp the bigger picture. You can't be for freedom of speech and yet want to make hate speech banned. It's a necessary evil, if you will.
    Then I call you a hypocrite for saying conspiracy to murder, as free speech, is illegal.

    Same argument applies.

    The bigger picture is racism is a much greater problem and causes far more harm than banning hate speech does.
    In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.
    Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.
    This is why people ban guns. Gun supporters don't know what guns are.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    The only reason you get arrested for racial abuse on the internet is if you get reported by hundreds of people until the police have to intervene. Obviously whatever this guy said must have offended a few hundred idiots. Regardless take responsibility for your actions, just cause its the internet doesnt mean your allowed to be racist, not that it really harms anyone if you make a comment.

    Also yeah we here in Britain get whipped on the street for dare speaking up against our gov'nahs! Get a fucking grip people, theres a difference between free speech and hate speech.
    So if somebody is like "I hate sourkraut" they get arrested for that?

  7. #267
    Pandaren Monk Lora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    Then I call you a hypocrite for saying conspiracy to murder, as free speech, is illegal.
    I've been called a hypocrite many a times and I call myself one, doesn't invalidate my words in any way. Obviously there are rules for saying out loud that you are going to kill someone because at that point whether it's true or not, you are a public threat. That's the same reason you don't yell fire in a movie theater, it causes public panic and people will think irrationally and could incite a riot or violence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thedead241 View Post
    I'm a prostitute. Men like to tell me secrets. And women.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robozerim View Post
    Also....my condolences to whoever is Lora's lover. You got matched up with a madman, regardless of his alignment.

  8. #268
    Scarab Lord Zhangfei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lora View Post
    I've been called a hypocrite many a times and I call myself one, doesn't invalidate my words in any way. Obviously there are rules for saying out loud that you are going to kill someone because at that point whether it's true or not, you are a public threat. That's the same reason you don't yell fire in a movie theater, it causes public panic and people will think irrationally and could incite a riot or violence.
    Right. And I think if you're saying racist things then it leads to discrimination and harassment. That's illegal too. Obviously free speech doesn't mean that much to you if you're ok with banning what you think is bad.
    In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.
    Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.
    This is why people ban guns. Gun supporters don't know what guns are.

  9. #269
    Legendary! Tommo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorensen View Post
    So if somebody is like "I hate sourkraut" they get arrested for that?
    Is this a real comment? Are you for real?.....

  10. #270
    Pandaren Monk Lora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    Right. And I think if you're saying racist things then it leads to discrimination and harassment. That's illegal too. Obviously free speech doesn't mean that much to you if you're ok with banning what you think is bad.
    Please point out where I said something was bad and wanted it banned? Don't put words in my mouth that I did not say. If you're not grown up enough to understand the concept of free speech and how hate speech needs to be defended then just ask for an explanation, don't resort to saying someone said something that was not uttered.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thedead241 View Post
    I'm a prostitute. Men like to tell me secrets. And women.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robozerim View Post
    Also....my condolences to whoever is Lora's lover. You got matched up with a madman, regardless of his alignment.

  11. #271
    Herald of the Titans Nadev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    Is this a real comment? Are you for real?.....
    Well if enough people are offended and report the comment, yes.
    Men!

    Quote Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
    I picked Biden because he may throw Obama into the Death Star's reactor core, restoring balance to the Force.

    Now having a ball on SWTOR!

  12. #272
    Scarab Lord Zhangfei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lora View Post
    Please point out where I said something was bad and wanted it banned? Don't put words in my mouth that I did not say. If you're not grown up enough to understand the concept of free speech and how hate speech needs to be defended then just ask for an explanation, don't resort to saying someone said something that was not uttered.
    I do understand it. I just don't think you do - you defend free speech by applying a boo-hurrah theory of morality while ignoring the rational argument that hate speech is not free speech, the very same argument that is applicable to other limitations on free speech to protect people.

    Well if enough people are offended and report the comment, yes.
    Which group or individual would it be an attack on? It's not hate speech if it's not intrinsically tied to an individual or a group.

    Sauerkraut is just goddamn delicious. Pickled cabbage has no rights.
    In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.
    Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.
    This is why people ban guns. Gun supporters don't know what guns are.

  13. #273
    Legendary! Tommo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davendwarf View Post
    Well if enough people are offended and report the comment, yes.
    But hes confusing hate speech (about ethnicity/race) with the fact he hates cabbage... Im not too sure If I should report him for trolling.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    But hes confusing hate speech (about ethnicity/race) with the fact he hates cabbage... Im not too sure If I should report him for trolling.
    Hate is hate whether its cabbage or people. If you want to say hating food or whatever is not hate, its still hate.

    If you hate a man because he slept with your wife is that not hate. If you hate getting wet when it rains is that not hate. If somebody cuts you off at an intersection and you hate him for that is that not hate. Hate is more than just racist stuff ok.
    Last edited by Sorensen; 2013-02-01 at 07:49 PM.

  15. #275
    Pandaren Monk Lora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    I do understand it. I just don't think you do - you defend free speech by applying a boo-hurrah theory of morality while ignoring the rational argument that hate speech is not free speech, the very same argument that is applicable to other limitations on free speech to protect people.
    Hate speech is one thing but a hate crime is another. If you call someone a nigger or a faggot then you either hate the targeted group or you are using the words in a jokingly fashion. Words and dialect are different for everyone and something that may be obscene to one person is harmless to another because they realize that WORDS have no meaning unless you allow them to. If however you call someone a nigger or a faggot and then try to physically harm them, that is a crime. Shouting fire in a theater will cause anxiety, panic, and irrational thoughts. People can be offended all they want, that doesn't mean you can ban the words. Words are harmless. Action isnt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thedead241 View Post
    I'm a prostitute. Men like to tell me secrets. And women.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robozerim View Post
    Also....my condolences to whoever is Lora's lover. You got matched up with a madman, regardless of his alignment.

  16. #276
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lora View Post
    Free speech is not limited to the speech that we like and nothing else. You need to grasp the bigger picture. You can't be for freedom of speech and yet want to make hate speech banned. It's a necessary evil, if you will.
    None of this is true. As can easily be seen by the many nations of the world that have laws protecting freedom of speech, and at the same time have laws banning hate speech.

    "Free speech" was never without limits. Not even in the US. That's what you're using to argue against hate speech laws, and it's a false premise. Speech has always had limitations beyond which it was not legal to go. Hate speech is merely another limitation. You can't argue that it's "wrong" because it limits speech, not unless you also argue that verbal harassment to every possible degree, verbal fraud, slander, incitement to riot, sedition and treason, and any other form of currently-illegal speech are also unconscionable restrictions on freedom of speech, that all of those should be seen as "necessary evils" as well.

    The fact is, many people in the world disagree that there's anything "necessary" about that evil, and thus legislate against it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 02:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lora View Post
    Hate speech is one thing but a hate crime is another. If you call someone a nigger or a faggot then you either hate the targeted group or you are using the words in a jokingly fashion. Words and dialect are different for everyone and something that may be obscene to one person is harmless to another because they realize that WORDS have no meaning unless you allow them to. If however you call someone a nigger or a faggot and then try to physically harm them, that is a crime. Shouting fire in a theater will cause anxiety, panic, and irrational thoughts. People can be offended all they want, that doesn't mean you can ban the words. Words are harmless. Action isnt.
    And this may be the problem, right here.

    The issue is that you don't understand what "hate speech" is. Here's a hint; the use of a racial epithet isn't "hate speech". You can commit hate speech crimes without ever saying a word that would get you bleeped on a children's show.

  17. #277
    Scarab Lord Zhangfei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lora View Post
    Hate speech is one thing but a hate crime is another. If you call someone a nigger or a faggot then you either hate the targeted group or you are using the words in a jokingly fashion. Words and dialect are different for everyone and something that may be obscene to one person is harmless to another because they realize that WORDS have no meaning unless you allow them to. If however you call someone a nigger or a faggot and then try to physically harm them, that is a crime. Shouting fire in a theater will cause anxiety, panic, and irrational thoughts. People can be offended all they want, that doesn't mean you can ban the words. Words are harmless. Action isnt.
    Nobody is banning the words. Satire is protected under free speech. Nobody is banning thoughts. The only thing happening is people are banning the actions of racism. I don't see how this goes against "free speech."

    And if words are harmless, why do we have libel, slander, conspiracy to commit murder, incitement etc? If people in a cinema are so thick that screaming fire causes a panic, don't they deserve to die? It's not the screamer's fault after all.
    In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.
    Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.
    This is why people ban guns. Gun supporters don't know what guns are.

  18. #278
    Pandaren Monk Lora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    Nobody is banning the words. Satire is protected under free speech. Nobody is banning thoughts. The only thing happening is people are banning the actions of racism. I don't see how this goes against "free speech."

    And if words are harmless, why do we have libel, slander, conspiracy to commit murder, incitement etc? If people in a cinema are so thick that screaming fire causes a panic, don't they deserve to die? It's not the screamer's fault after all.
    To answer the libel and slander etc part, greed and corruption. That goes to the whole Thomas Hobbes vs John Locke debate. If there is no fire and someone shouts fire when you are in a crowded movie theater, you are only doing so to provoke and incite panic. Theaters aren't confined to one room and we all know how regulations with them aren't always up to date. Look at Aurora and their violations. If there is a fire, then people will get the fuck out of dodge and won't be pissed they got worked up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcqHSAwMHO8
    Last edited by Lora; 2013-02-01 at 08:04 PM. Reason: wrong tense of word
    Quote Originally Posted by Thedead241 View Post
    I'm a prostitute. Men like to tell me secrets. And women.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robozerim View Post
    Also....my condolences to whoever is Lora's lover. You got matched up with a madman, regardless of his alignment.

  19. #279
    Said it earlier and I'll say it again... you DON'T and SHOULDN'T have the right to not be offended. It is a simple as that.


  20. #280
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lora View Post
    To answer the libel and slander etc part, greed and corruption. That goes to the whole Thomas Hobbes vs John Locke debate. If there is no fire and someone shouts fire when you are in a crowded movie theater, you are only doing so to provoke and incite panic.
    And yet, hate speech is banned for nearly identical reasons in those nations with laws against it, yet you for some reason believe there is a categorical difference between that and these "correct" limitations on speech.

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