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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Go look at some of the laws in the UK (and a lot of other western countries) or just keep believing that if you wish. It's hardly uncommon to be tried for something because they WANTED to get you for some other reason. They have no reason to chase down everyone who breaks every minor law that shouldn't exist, because that's just how the legal system is. Overbearing. If you tried to enforce everything all the time you would run your country into the ground and be a mini north korea while you're at it.
    Pretty much. Most of us have done something that would warrant the authorities to hold you atleast for a brief period. It's just that they don't have the resources to enforce every little law, and we are usually not even aware of breaking the laws.

    Normally laws prevent the authorities from arresting you without probable cause, but when you have so many laws that you can't avoid breaking them, these rights against unlawful arrest become redundant. The police can arrest anyone at anytime because we've all unwittingly committed some petty crime.

  2. #102
    Scarab Lord Zhangfei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    Please read up on how defamation laws work. They do not apply when some random nobody says nasty things about a public figure.
    Please read up how hate speech laws work. They apply when people perform a racist act that could incite violence or proclaim it in and of itself.

    Free speech is alive and well, it just doesn't mesh with people who want to defend racists... which begs the question, why?

    Something being "bad" doesn't mean it should be illegal or criminal.
    Yet it is, and for good reason - racists end up causing damage to individuals and society.

    Hate speech is bad, but it's not against freedom of speech
    Yes it is. You do not get to define "free speech."
    In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.
    Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.
    This is why people ban guns. Gun supporters don't know what guns are.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    Please read up how hate speech laws work. They apply when people perform a racist act that could incite violence or proclaim it in and of itself.

    Free speech is alive and well, it just doesn't mesh with people who want to defend racists... which begs the question, why?



    Yet it is, and for good reason - racists end up causing damage to individuals and society.



    Yes it is. You do not get to define "free speech."
    Talking is not a racist act.

    And you don't get to define free speech anymore than anyone else.

  4. #104
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    Please read up how hate speech laws work. They apply when people perform a racist act that could incite violence or proclaim it in and of itself.
    I didn't know a distasteful comment on indirect feed on facebook (akin to a fan forum) could incite violence in any realistic case.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    Hate speech is bad, but it's not against freedom of speech. In countries with civil liberties the courts do not recognize hate speech.

    Only if you're encouraging people to do harm to the player, or threatening to do it yourself, might the authorities get involved. Lacking that, people who say stupid things are punished by social sanctions. Like when an employer fires you for saying nasty stuff like that, or your friends abandon you.

    Racism isn't social ok, just like being an alcoholic isn't socially ok. But it's not and should not be illegal in civilized countries.
    I can't agree with this too much. Especially the social sanctions, a power/right that everyone seems to forget they have and instead turn to an oppressive, top-down approach.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    That's what I'm saying for one, and two, hate speech and incitement to violence has to be against a specific group present and under threat. The Bible and Qu'ran are aggressive against people who no longer exist, so that's a bad analogy.

    Racist thoughts lead to racist actions, so it's good to crack down on it.
    Aggressive against people who no longer exist? There are tons of "unbelievers" in this world so I am not sure why you think bible and quran talk about people who no longer exist. The crusaders went on a holy wars to cleanse unbelievers (based on aggressive passage against people that no longer exist). The middle east terrorists are also on a holy war to kill the unbelievers (based on aggressive passages against people that no longer exist). Both of them justified their actions with their book. Would promoting this idea be ok to you?

    So what if the person posted a facebook post "only if hitler were alive today, this world would be a better place" or "only if (some other dead racist) were alive today, this world would be a better place"? Their actions are history but the underlying message is there. Would this then be ok to you?

    I agree with the noble desire to make this world a better place but sadly we will never have an utopia. This is the exact reason why law exist and law needs to be blind and fair. We can do our best to tweak it but it needs to be well defined otherwise someone can abuse law to jail many others.
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    they're moving they're table over they're
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  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    I can't agree with this too much.
    Does this mean you agree or disagree with me? :P (litteral interpretation would mean you agree with me, but it's a bit of an uncommon phrase).

  8. #108
    Scarab Lord Zhangfei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorensen View Post
    Talking is not a racist act.

    And you don't get to define free speech anymore than anyone else.
    Making racist comments IS a racial act.

    And I agree. So I'm going to leave it to my represented government to make laws to define it, ergo, it's not free speech.

    I didn't know a distasteful comment on indirect feed on facebook (akin to a fan forum) could incite violence in any realistic case.
    It's not a one-to-one correlation. Even if it's one to ten-thousand correlation, that's too much.

    Both of them justified their actions with their book. Would promoting this idea be ok to you?
    While I think your examples are very poor, this forum has banned religious talk. Can we skip this over and/or find a comparative example that doesn't involve religion?

    So what if the person posted a facebook post "only if hitler were alive today, this world would be a better place" or "only if (some other dead racist) were alive today, this world would be a better place"? Their actions are history but the underlying message is there. Would this then be ok to you?
    What do you mean ok to me? I'm not the police. I didn't make the law. Of course I find it repugnant - but is it incitement? No. Supporting Hitler is, frankly, a bit of a waste of time in political theory right now given he's dead.
    Last edited by Zhangfei; 2013-01-31 at 09:17 PM.
    In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.
    Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.
    This is why people ban guns. Gun supporters don't know what guns are.

  9. #109
    Bloodsail Admiral KunkkaTheAdmiral's Avatar
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    Im not sure who mentioned that every little law has to be enforced with tons of resources ?

    Great Britain certainly does enforce the tracking and arresting of seemingly racist people and I think it's nothing bad in the first place, nothing more, nothing less.
    "Why do we fight? To protect home and family, to preserve balance and bring harmony. For my kind the true question is, what is worth fighting for?"

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    Please read up how hate speech laws work. They apply when people perform a racist act that could incite violence or proclaim it in and of itself.

    Free speech is alive and well, it just doesn't mesh with people who want to defend racists... which begs the question, why?
    Free speech is not alive and well in the UK. Just have a look at how their press is censored by so called "injunctions", where the press isn't allowed to talk about a particular subject and they can't even say that they've been ordered not to talk about it.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    Making racist comments IS a racial act.

    And I agree. So I'm going to leave it to my represented government to make laws to define it, ergo, it's not free speech.



    It's not a one-to-one correlation. Even if it's one to ten-thousand correlation, that's too much.



    While I think your examples are very poor, this forum has banned religious talk. Can we skip this over and/or find a comparative example that doesn't involve religion?
    So is speaking in a language a racial act. Because when I'm playing a video game on a NA server and people are speaking anything other than english it incites violence in me.

  12. #112
    Scarab Lord Zhangfei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    Free speech is not alive and well in the UK.
    Yes it is. You just don't like the fact we protect people.

    So is speaking in a language a racial act. Because when I'm playing a video game on a NA server and people are speaking anything other than english it incites violence in me.
    No, but I would argue you sound very racist in this hypothetical example in that you don't like hearing foreign languages and it incites violence in you being the key problem.
    In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.
    Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.
    This is why people ban guns. Gun supporters don't know what guns are.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    Yes it is. You just don't like the fact we protect people.
    Throw everybody who doesn't like footballers in jail, that is terrible protection.

  14. #114
    Scarab Lord Zhangfei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorensen View Post
    Throw everybody who doesn't like footballers in jail, that is terrible protection.
    Says who? I think if you break the law you deserve prison, but I'm old fashioned.
    In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.
    Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.
    This is why people ban guns. Gun supporters don't know what guns are.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    Yes it is. You just don't like the fact we protect people.



    No, but I would argue you sound very racist in this hypothetical example in that you don't like hearing foreign languages and it incites violence in you being the key problem.
    I personally don't like how you use the government to tell me what I can and can't say. Leave it to society's discourse to figure out what's popular and what should be shunned (i.e. racism). But why get the jails involved with this? Let their punishment be the free speech of others. You will, in time, see that you're fastening your own shackles by promoting the censoring and criminalization of speech.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    Yes it is. You just don't like the fact we protect people.
    Oh look, you're from the UK. No wonder you will defend your government's infringement upon freedom of speech.

    Protecting people from getting offended is ridiculous and impossible to enforce fairly.

    Also what are you going to do when I post racist hate speech against people in your country? What are you going to do when I do something that with "one in a thousand correlation" causes racist violence?

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    Says who? I think if you break the law you deserve prison, but I'm old fashioned.
    That's right you are old fashioned. I'd even call you a conservative when you say something like this.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangfei View Post
    Yes it is. You just don't like the fact we protect people.



    No, but I would argue you sound very racist in this hypothetical example in that you don't like hearing foreign languages and it incites violence in you being the key problem.
    It just makes me send zerglings in their base more.

    but seriously league of legends needs Latin american servers.
    Last edited by Sorensen; 2013-01-31 at 09:26 PM.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    Oh look, you're from the UK. No wonder you will defend your government's infringement upon freedom of speech.

    Protecting people from getting offended is ridiculous and impossible to enforce fairly.

    Also what are you going to do when I post racist hate speech against people in your country? What are you going to do when I do something that with "one in a thousand correlation" causes racist violence?
    If you can find a causal relationship in social psychology, all my professors would be very pleased. Because as of yet, just about no one has actually demonstrated that this is anything more than a correlation.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    If you can find a causal relationship in social psychology, all my professors would be very pleased. Because as of yet, no one has actually demonstrated that this is anything more than a correlation.
    I was making fun of what he said :P

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