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  1. #241
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skavau View Post
    No evidence to suggest this guy was harassing, you know. Insulting someone =/= harassment.
    OMG. at least READ the articles before you keep going on with your false claims..

    "A 39-year-old Gateshead man has been arrested on suspicion of racially-aggravated harassment and has been bailed pending further inquiries.''

  2. #242
    Brewmaster Sorensen's Avatar
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    I really wish they would release what he actually did.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If you think your right to free speech allows you to harass someone with racial epithets, then you don't understand what "free speech" is.
    If you think that free speech is restricted speech, then you don't understand what free speech is.

    And I haven't seen anyone argue that the US First Amendment applies overseas, only arguing that it's a good government policy, and at the most have argued that similar limitations on government restriction of speech SHOULD apply everywhere, not that they do. Surely you can distinguish between someone saying something is a certain way and saying it should be a certain way.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 05:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    OMG. at least READ the articles before you keep going on with your false claims..
    "Suspicion of harassment" doesn't tell anyone much. At best it shows they have evidence that none of us can verify.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    "Suspicion of harassment" doesn't tell anyone much. At best it shows they have evidence that none of us can verify.
    Are hurt feelings admissible in court as evidence?

  5. #245
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSageCorban View Post
    I was being sarcastic. Personally I'd rather people say what's on their minds, so i know who I'm dealing with.
    Which is a healthy standpoint, very well applicable for a face to face situation.
    But that changes when it comes to random strangers which you've never seen or heard of before, somewhere online.

    We also need to look at a different angle with a situation like the one at hand....

    On one side we have a public figure. A football star. He's constantly out in the open, out in public. Basically he's a walking target, primed with a bulls eye, and an easy target to attack beyond just words..
    On the other hand, we have some random jerk, who harasses that man online..
    But what do we know about that jerk? Nothing...
    What's his mental profile? We don't know.

    I find it rather comical when we have hundreds of pages of gun related threads where we discuss violence, and criticism is expressed as to why and how the hell mentally disturbed individuals are able to go on shooting rampages..... yet at the same time in here we find people who seriously despise law enforcement for carrying out preventive methods to avoid such possible shootings in the first place?
    To me, someone who harasses someone else online, even with resort to racism, such individual is clearly mentally disturbed enough.
    So well, no... I see nothing wrong with what the law enforcement did there.

  6. #246
    The Lightbringer Rend Blackhand's Avatar
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    this free speech issue has come up in the past and i have given my opinions on other threads but I'm here to offer another view of the situation:

    Is it not just funny to see arseholes get punished?


    Racists are scum and seeing their lives fucked up because of one slightly racist facebook post amuses me in a sort of sick way.

  7. #247
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    If you think that free speech is restricted speech, then you don't understand what free speech is.
    The US restricts a lot of speech, too, is the point. If your argument is that someone can face legal consequences over speech, and thus the nation does not have truly free speech, then the US doesn't have free speech either.

    "Suspicion of harassment" doesn't tell anyone much. At best it shows they have evidence that none of us can verify.


    Don't be deliberately obtuse. Everyone's arrested on "suspicion" of something. That's why they're a "suspect". They're typically charged after arrest, and then the court case determines guilt.

    The only way you can get arrested due to being guilty of committing a crime, is if you were convicted in absentia for some reason.

    He was arrested for harassment.


  8. #248
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    "Suspicion of harassment" doesn't tell anyone much. At best it shows they have evidence that none of us can verify.
    They have evidence, and they apparently had enough evidence that they simply didn't let him go, without bail. Seems like a judge was already involved, and the case was beyond just taking him in to the police station for his statement.
    Now I am quite speculative, but I would not be surprised if we learn down the road that the guy was already a known subject in regards of violent ultras and consorts.. As much as I know the scene in Germany, and if the UK scene isn't that different from it, there may be some clubs forum where the case is discussed as well, since the chances are high for the arrested guy being a fan of another club. And if he does belong to the ultras scene it's known and openly discussed within the PL clubs forums. They may in fact have more details than the news articles we got at hand.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Don't be deliberately obtuse. Everyone's arrested on "suspicion" of something.
    What part of ""Suspicion of harassment" doesn't tell anyone much. At best it shows they have evidence that none of us can verify" was incorrect? I'm only being "deliberately obtuse" in your little world of overreaching and filling in the blanks with fabricated interpretations of what I said.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 05:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsybob View Post
    this free speech issue has come up in the past and i have given my opinions on other threads but I'm here to offer another view of the situation:

    Is it not just funny to see arseholes get punished?


    Racists are scum and seeing their lives fucked up because of one slightly racist facebook post amuses me in a sort of sick way.
    In answer to your possibly rhetorical question, no, I am not enough of a sociopath that I'm eager to give power over my speech to the government so that they can use it to inflict misery on complete strangers.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree
    What's scary about that? It's that way ever since..
    It is scary because if applied objectively it would result in everyone ever being punished by the state in some way. It criminalises the uncouth side of human disagreement.

    correct, and no normal law abiding citizen will ever have the least problem with that..
    Yeah, I'm sure people can live perfectly without ever insulting anyone ever in any context.

    The moment I insult you, I committed an intrusion of YOUR privacy sphere. That moment I violated your peace, and also your human rights.
    I'll speak for my own privacy sphere. I'll speak for my own peace and human rights as well. You insulting me does not intrude my "privacy sphere".

    And again you are wrong... The internet is NOT A lawfree space, and with that said, ANYTHING that's written on any private website is subject to laws.
    I didn't declare the internet law-free, I pointed out the difference between getting kicked off a private premise for stating an opinion and being sanctioned by the state for stating the same opinion.

    If someone for example rambles on here with a flaming hate speech, and possibly formulates a threat against the Presidents life, the posting IS subject to the laws of the USA, and therefore the poster could very well find himself in the situation that the CIA is knocking at his door and arrests him. Or if he's from a non US country the local police shows up.. It's at the discretion of the law enforcement, and whether it's made aware of the incident.
    Making threats actually involve an individual directly calling for the harm of another. They should be cautioned/arrested (depending severity) based on what they might do (as expressed by their words).

    But again, our case resides in the UK, not the USA. Facebook is an US based company, yet still it's European part is located in Europe, and with that the laws of the UK apply to FB UK... that simple. You can face punishment by law for racist harassment, and that's what's at hand. The guy was arrested for that.
    Again, insulting someone on a forum =/= harassment.

    The problem we have is, that - as it shows on page 1 already - you automatically sided with the arrested guy.. Your first post words that we don't know how tame the FB message was. Well, I rather wonder how severe it was. I'm pretty sure it was not tame. The cops don't get active just that easy over every minor and rather tame remark.
    This is the UK. I direct your attention to the following:

    Police track down "choc ice" tweet

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 05:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    OMG. at least READ the articles before you keep going on with your false claims..
    That they call a post or some posts on a forum harassment does not make them harassment. Similar to how being anti-Islamic is considered an extension of racism (yet it isn't). There's a chance that this guy, based on the reading on some articles actually made an anti-Islamic comment rather than a racist one yet they are considered synonymous.

  11. #251
    Deleted
    If he was black and the player was white, nothing would have happened

  12. #252
    Just on your last point "The man was not arrested or interviewed under caution" Very last line of the article. Like I said previously the police have an obligation to investigate potential crimes brought to their attention by members of the public.

  13. #253
    What does religion have to do with racism?

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Activi-T View Post
    Just on your last point "The man was not arrested or interviewed under caution" Very last line of the article. Like I said previously the police have an obligation to investigate potential crimes brought to their attention by members of the public.
    But, but, but, where does it stop? They investigated a complaint from a member of public (which they decided not to pursue further), but next thing you know they will be dragging people down allys and shooting them in the back of the head for thinking racist thoughts!!! /sarcasm off

    People are either not reading the article / peoples response regarding UK law to instigate a non-existant argument about how our right to free speach is being infringed. Paranoia is a terrible thing...

  15. #255
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skavau View Post

    This is the UK. I direct your attention to the following:

    Police track down "choc ice" tweet
    See, you just delivered proof that the law enforcement seems to work just as intended. In your case here, it shows that the police simply just interviewed the guy in question.

    In the case of the thread topic, we have an arrest, and a bail associated with it. Which indicates, a rather more valid reason.

    And remember when I referred to that I don't blame either the law or the law enforcement, but rather blame the people causing the problems?
    In our case, it appears that the UK currently suffers, much like other leagues, from a wave of racism in football stadiums and the surroundings of the sport outside the field too...

    I suppose, that isn't something new to you either, or is it?

  16. #256
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    It should never have got to law enforcement doing anything for something as petty as a "choc ice" tweet, even on suspicion.

  17. #257
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skavau View Post
    It should never have got to law enforcement doing anything for something as petty as a "choc ice" tweet, even on suspicion.
    if it's reported they have no choice but to investigate. Especially due to the fact of the sensitivity of the problem with out of control spiraling racism in stadiums as well.
    It's better to investigate once too much, than not enough at all.
    It pleases me, honestly to see it that way. What if they don't react at all, and one day a player, or a person gets killed by someone?

    I can easily see the outcome....
    Criticism against the law enforcement for not doing anything already before.
    "it was obvious... The killer harassed the victim already online..." "should have been taken care of right there already: etc etc.

    So all in all, it appears that it doesn't matter.. What ever happens, there's always someone crying foul...
    I for myself prefer the early interference. Makes my and everyone else life safer.

  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    if it's reported they have no choice but to investigate. Especially due to the fact of the sensitivity of the problem with out of control spiraling racism in stadiums as well.
    It's better to investigate once too much, than not enough at all.
    It pleases me, honestly to see it that way. What if they don't react at all, and one day a player, or a person gets killed by someone?
    It would be one thing to keep tabs on things that they think could unfold into an actual crime that harms others, but not arrest until they have reason to believe it will happen.

    I can easily see the outcome....
    Criticism against the law enforcement for not doing anything already before.
    "it was obvious... The killer harassed the victim already online..." "should have been taken care of right there already: etc etc.
    Except calling Ashley Cole a "choc ice" does not constitute harassment. Actual harassment is different than just insulting someone.

  19. #259
    Scarab Lord Zhangfei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    I said earlier that hate speech needs to be defended out of necessity, not exactly out of willingness.
    If the action is defensible, it means you support and accept it (unless you're playing the Devil's advocate in a logical or legal debate.)

    And once again, religion is not an eligible topic on these boards.

    Free speech is a right. Hate speech is not part of that, just like libel, defamation, endangerment, incitement to cause violence, conspiracy and slander aren't.
    In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.
    Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.
    This is why people ban guns. Gun supporters don't know what guns are.

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by DakonBlackblade View Post
    How is a facebook coment any diferent from sayng it yourself on "real life" ?
    This is not racial harassment, he said this on a facebook banter page - A page that is made for the 'banter' between sets of fans, this was a comment not aimed at anyone. He just said it, it wasn't sent straight to Demba Ba, so it's not harassment...

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