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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Fadinglight View Post
    I wouldn't worry about threat, I'd worry about damage, impossible to quest in prot due to the bullshitingly low damage. Honestly if you're interested in tanking end game at level 90, don't level a prot pally.
    Easily the most patently false thing I've read today, and I've been on the internet way too much today. Protpal is perhaps THE most viable tank at 90, easily the most well rounded and incredibly versatile. Please don't spread bad information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Never understood that logic when I was leveling a tank, when a dps pulled something, great, more to tank = faster run. Whats the problem with just picking it up? That being said, especially when I leveled my warrior and druid, the dps never even got a chance to pull. Think dps pulled mobs like once every 20 levels or so.
    I share this mindset as a tank; I can solo pretty much any 90 heroic, so DPS (and heals, to a similar extent) are just a luxury to make the run faster for me. If they want to pull, w/e, it keeps me on my toes. If they're being trolls or pulling a lot of unneccesary shit, then I may let them die...but given that I run very quickly, avoid as much as possible by following my CM pathings, and chain pull stuff, I've accepted that SOMETIMES people accidently body-pull.

    I do the same thing when I heal, if DPS pull threat or run ahead, I don't let them die; instead it's a fun challenge in an otherwise boring/monotonous instance.

    My GF, who heals mainly, but tanks from time to time, is the exact opposite. Will let ANYONE die who does stupid shit, and then mock them after. I get that stance, to a degree, but in my opinion, it takes too much of my time to let them die, explain that they're bad, and rez them. Plus, they likely won't learn anyway...may as well at least be efficient.

    ON TOPIC - Threat at 90 on trash is a bit shit at the moment, compared to a DK and esp to a monk. Keg smash/dizzying haze is SO OP on threat, so don't feel bad losing aggro to a BrM. My co-tank likes to aggro ALL the things, but since the mobs in HoF stun/silence, he usually gets insta-gibbed and I pick up the pieces. From then on, we share the load :P Boss threat is cake, and if you really want to make trash easy, just chain pull to keep that vengeance rolling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
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  2. #22
    Stood in the Fire
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    AOE threat at 90 is terrible. From my experience tanking along side each class, paladins seem to have the worst of the bunch. Druids, DKs and Brewmasters use little to no effort when it comes to AOE threat. Warriors are comparable but still better than paladins IMO. Single target threat is fine.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Scinder View Post
    AOE threat at 90 is terrible. From my experience tanking along side each class, paladins seem to have the worst of the bunch. Druids, DKs and Brewmasters use little to no effort when it comes to AOE threat. Warriors are comparable but still better than paladins IMO. Single target threat is fine.
    I would say Paladins and Warriors are pretty much exactly in the same boat. Only that paladins have a lot of different means to pick up streams of adds. Warriors AoE arsenal is tiny and weak, so yeah. Both classes AoE output and design is miles behind a Death Knight, and a death knight is hardly anything compared to a monk. Balance in this area could be improved.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Scinder View Post
    AOE threat at 90 is terrible. From my experience tanking along side each class, paladins seem to have the worst of the bunch. Druids, DKs and Brewmasters use little to no effort when it comes to AOE threat. Warriors are comparable but still better than paladins IMO. Single target threat is fine.
    Paladins just have to use the old 5 sunders style, they might need a second or two but once they've had that they're glued to you, warriors can have difficulty just holding things, even once they've got vengeance up

  5. #25
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Paladins just have to use the old 5 sunders style, they might need a second or two but once they've had that they're glued to you, warriors can have difficulty just holding things, even once they've got vengeance up
    I agree. The only issues I have with threat is if both tanks are charging in and grabbing adds. If there is 6 or more adds, I usually am lucky to hold onto 1-2 of them when paired with another tank. Kinda annoying and disappointing considering we were once the best AOE threat tanks.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Scinder View Post
    considering we were once the best AOE threat tanks.
    Well technically we still are the best AoE threat tanks, we just don't have the snap AoE that the other tanks have, and we also scale far too well with vengeance

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Well technically we still are the best AoE threat tanks, we just don't have the snap AoE that the other tanks have, and we also scale far too well with vengeance
    No tank has problem with AoE threat after 10s, making it irrelevant which tank makes higher AoE threat after vengeance kicks in.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    No tank has problem with AoE threat after 10s, making it irrelevant which tank makes higher AoE threat after vengeance kicks in.
    Depends on the type of fights, at the beginnings of Wind Lord it can be an issue for DPS classes popping their cooldowns and out AoE threating tanks, or for certain classes having to single target (ie the interrupters) which could end up peeling that mob off some tanks, admittedly thats mostly for some of my guild's lesser geared/more avoidance heavy tanks, but its still something to keep in mind

  9. #29
    If they just fixed consecration to scale with haste it would not be a problem at all.
    Sadly, all paladins have been focusing on "dont nerf our haste" so noone has been forwarding the other issues, like the perma 1.5s GCDs and Cons haste scaling.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by bigfootbigd View Post
    I've leveled a blood DK, prot Warrior, and Brewmaster through dungeons having no problems holding threat for the most part.
    I've started leveling a prot pally (currently level 50) and noticed I'm having much more difficult time holding threat. I use Consecration w/ Glyph > avengers shield > Holy Wrath > and spam HoR. I also have RFury up at all times and switch seal Right & command depending on whether it's a single-target or multiple-target. Any tips would be great
    As some others have indicated, I am not sure you have the basics of paladin tanking down. Are you running the correct rotation? It's all about using CS (or HoR for multi-target) to generate holy power and then using that for ShotR. You don't mention judgement (a ranged HoPo generator that is a good opener) or ShotR. Threat can be a bit iffy on the pull, as we don't get enough holy power to quickly land a ShotR (you'll have one from J and one from CS, but then have to wait a little).

    On AOE, consecration takes a time to tick and both HW and HoR are not that heavy hitters. Unglyphed AS is probably the best thing we have for the typical "cleave" trash encounters in 5 mans. The healing aggro from SoI is rather handy here - I would not bother using any other seal to be honest (with glyph of battle healer, it's amazing).

    One thing that helped me enormously was using the threatplates add-on. Mobs you don't have threat on have bigger nameplates, so it is easier to taunt them or otherwise pick them up. I would also key bind the skull icon (or use a rapid mob marker add-on) if threat is an issue, as having all the dps focus on one add makes your life so much easier (and is also the most efficient way of killing).

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    If they just fixed consecration to scale with haste it would not be a problem at all.
    Sadly, all paladins have been focusing on "dont nerf our haste" so noone has been forwarding the other issues, like the perma 1.5s GCDs and Cons haste scaling.
    I posted this (specifically, the issues about consecrate's interaction with haste, and the GCD inconsistencies) in the part one thread, and it didn't really get any attention. I'm trying to repost now, but I cannot log-in to the official forums to re-post in part II.

    I can re-list the issue in here if someone would be willing to post it on our behalf.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    I posted this (specifically, the issues about consecrate's interaction with haste, and the GCD inconsistencies) in the part one thread, and it didn't really get any attention. I'm trying to repost now, but I cannot log-in to the official forums to re-post in part II.

    I can re-list the issue in here if someone would be willing to post it on our behalf.
    Ye, kinda sad it didn't get so much attention. I saw the post but couldn't post myself on the forum so.
    Think all paladins were busy with the haste thing.

    Would be nice to bring some attention to this now.


    The 1.5GCD thing should be more a bug fix, should be very obvious that they should fix it if we can just raise their eyebrowes that it is actually an issue. Especially with 1 T6 talent scaling with haste and the other 2 not.

    Listing possible fixes to the consecration.

    1. Making the tick speed and duration of consecration scale with haste.
    Pros: We can use consecration normally in our rotation without constantly looking at the duration of the previous one.
    Increased AoE threat in which we are terrible atm.
    Increased AE damage which we still are far behind other tanks

    Cons: Could be some issues in PvP with this, but protadins are not really huge in PvP so really do not see how this would affect it.

    2. Making it possible to overlap consecrations. If I cast another one, the previous one should not be cancelled.

    Almost same results as above

    Pros: We can use consecration normally in our rotation without constantly looking at the duration of the previous one.
    Increased AoE threat in which we are terrible atm.
    Increased AE damage which we still are far behind other tanks
    Less PvP impact than suggestion 1. If that is even an issue.

    Cons: Compared to 1. It gives us less snap AE threat and less intitial AE damage. Which is the departments we are trash in compared to other tanks.


    3. Make it so that consecration deals 66% of the damage on the first half and 33% of the second half. Basically, lets say you deal 60k damage with your consecration. The first 4.5 seconds it would deal 40k damage, and the last 4.5 seconds it would deal 20k damage.


    Pros: We can use consecration normally in our rotation without constantly looking at the duration of the previous one.
    Increased AoE threat in which we are terrible atm.
    Increased AE damage which we still are far behind other tanks
    Still have the issue with overlapping, however the backlash is smaller on us for overlapping. We can reapply a cons that is in the later half of the duration to get a newer one hitting harder.
    If there is a thought that we might get to strong with suggestion 1 and 2, this would increase our snap threat, increase our AE while still not increasing it as much as 1 and 2.
    This can be seen as the compromise if 1 and 2 seems to strong.

    Cons: Well as said earlier, leaves us weaker than suggestion 1 and 2, but still stronger than current and we can use consecration properly in our rotation.


    My personal favorite is 2. ( even though 1 would be the strongest for us, 2 feels better and more of a compromise )
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #33
    Personally, I feel the T6 talents should be OFF the GCD, given that they are supposed to be the big "wow" part of the tree. They already do not scale with haste (for ANY spec), nor generate holy power. I agree that the GCD fix would be a simple bug-fix (or as simple as I can comprehend), but honestly it's quite sad/underwhelming that our big finale talents are even on the GCD in the first place.

    My Suggestions to add to the above post:
    1) Remove T6 talents from GCD
    2) Allow T6 talents to benefit from haste for all spec's (specifically looking at Ret and Execution Sentence here)
    3) Allow T6 talents to generate HoPo. I would personally prefer to see Prism give 1 HoPo, ES generate 3 HoPo, and Light's Hammer generate 1-3 HoPo based on number of targets hit/healed.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 06:45 PM ----------

    Combined Firefly's and my suggestions now that I can finally log in again:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...46?page=14#278
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  14. #34
    Glyph choices can really make a difference in 5 mans, I've found.

    I choose what gives me the most control over groups. If I can slow mobs down, that helps control a complete mess if I'm in a group that loves to pull agro. As long as I can somewhat control/position the mobs in a dungeon to go where I want them to, that's all that matters to me.

    At lower levels, it seems like a popular game people play with the tank is to mess their process up.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Never understood that logic when I was leveling a tank, when a dps pulled something, great, more to tank = faster run. Whats the problem with just picking it up? That being said, especially when I leveled my warrior and druid, the dps never even got a chance to pull. Think dps pulled mobs like once every 20 levels or so.
    Imagine this alternate situation, molded onto your mindless zerg rush through packs. Healer PoV: people zone in, afk a bit, get water, headphones whatever; all of a sudden, you see that the tank dies and a stream of mobs starts wiping your dps and finally the healer.

    What happened, you might ask? Well, for a lack of better wording, the idiot tank, not caring about healer's mana or level of readiness, started to chain pull 2-3 packs and tens of spawning adds, in quest greens gear (thus heavily low in avoidance/parry/block/mastery) and, wait for it, HE DIES! Do you see now the difference in approach versus mine ?

    Also, you don't really seem to be thinking like a tank (which should be "my responsability is to take the big hits off of the weaker friendlies"), more like a rogue or ranged reckless class ("yay, look at me, I'm awesome, I can pull threat from the tank and die like an idiot without using misdirect or other ability in my toolkit"). Yes, for a long time now DBM shows a line in chat when it detects cooldown uses and I'm almost the only one trigerring this so I know when *(s)he* didn't..

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by SirRaven View Post
    Imagine this alternate situation, molded onto your mindless zerg rush through packs. Healer PoV: people zone in, afk a bit, get water, headphones whatever; all of a sudden, you see that the tank dies and a stream of mobs starts wiping your dps and finally the healer.

    What happened, you might ask? Well, for a lack of better wording, the idiot tank, not caring about healer's mana or level of readiness, started to chain pull 2-3 packs and tens of spawning adds, in quest greens gear (thus heavily low in avoidance/parry/block/mastery) and, wait for it, HE DIES! Do you see now the difference in approach versus mine ?

    Also, you don't really seem to be thinking like a tank (which should be "my responsability is to take the big hits off of the weaker friendlies"), more like a rogue or ranged reckless class ("yay, look at me, I'm awesome, I can pull threat from the tank and die like an idiot without using misdirect or other ability in my toolkit"). Yes, for a long time now DBM shows a line in chat when it detects cooldown uses and I'm almost the only one trigerring this so I know when *(s)he* didn't..
    Well, I haven't leveled a tank this expansion. But last time I did, didn't even need a healer. My warrior I could keep myself up with victory rush and cooldowns, even pulling 30-40 mobs just kiting them spreading rend. And really, it is impossible for any dps to pull aggro from a good tank while leveling.

    My responsibility as a tank while leveling is to make the dungeon go faster so we can all get levels faster. Since tank generally do between 60-80% of the damage depending on how good the dpsers are, if a dps goes and dies, that doesn't really matter. That being said, dpsers won't die. If you pull fast enough, you will have aggro on everything and not even give those dpsers time to pull.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  17. #37
    Mechagnome BloodGutter's Avatar
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    5.2 patch notes:
    Protection
    The base damage of Consecration has been increased by 789%, and it now scales less efficiently with attack power by approximately 11%.
    my aggro in heroic 5 mans is decent but in LFR runs with lots of adds i can barely hold shit. i'd have to chain pull groups to keep my vengeance stack high to get my aoe attacks to hit hard and hold threat. the Cons buff should bring it up to par to a Blood DK's DnD

  18. #38
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by BloodGutter View Post
    5.2 patch notes:


    my aggro in heroic 5 mans is decent but in LFR runs with lots of adds i can barely hold shit. i'd have to chain pull groups to keep my vengeance stack high to get my aoe attacks to hit hard and hold threat. the Cons buff should bring it up to par to a Blood DK's DnD
    Losing vengeance scaling is bad for Raid threat. You really shouldn't be having issues with aoe threat. If you are, then unglyph avenger's shield. AS gives huge threat, not sure how people can't keep threat as a prot paladin.

  19. #39
    Mechagnome BloodGutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Losing vengeance scaling is bad for Raid threat. You really shouldn't be having issues with aoe threat. If you are, then unglyph avenger's shield. AS gives huge threat, not sure how people can't keep threat as a prot paladin.
    it is unglyphed. like i said heroic 5 mans are usually fine for me but its the huge trash groups in LFR (like Heart of Fear) that tend to be really hard to keep aggro on. given it is LFR but i always see the other tank classes having little aggro problems on that.

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