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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    "use health care or die" isn't a choice. If you really think it is then clearly if I hold a gun to your head and politely ask for your wallet I'm not doing anything wrong since you made a voluntary choice.
    This would only be relevant if you were equating someone with money who could pay for your healthcare - be it an insurance company, any company or any individual who could afford it - not doing so with that person or company taking affirmative action to murder you. "I'm sick/dying and you refused to pay for treatment on my terms" isn't even in the same dimension as "You killed me when I refused to hand over my wallet".

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    This would only be relevant if you were equating someone with money who could pay for your healthcare - be it an insurance company, any company or any individual who could afford it - not doing so with that person or company taking affirmative action to murder you. "I'm sick/dying and you refused to pay for treatment on my terms" isn't even in the same dimension as "You killed me when I refused to hand over my wallet".
    What are you talking about?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    Just because the alternative is undesirable doesn't make it any less voluntary. The concept behind insurance is indeed voluntary: you choose what, if any, policy best suits you, and the insurance decides whether or not to cover you. You agree upon a price in some fashion.
    When you go somewhere besides an ER and they can turn you down for medical attention when you need it, maybe you'll understand the relationship. You're conflating participation in the insurance market, with participation in the health care market. They're intertwined.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    Of course we live in a world where companies standardizing prices and strictly financial arrangements, like insurance which does NOT provide healthcare, are stupidly interpretted as corporations forcing circumstances upon us.
    Look, I'm right with you on insurance companies. I fucking hate them. But that's the only way to get quality care here in the states. Our collective nation is too government-hating to do anything but become victims of this industry. So we bitch about the current situation, and bitch about the government's attempt at fixing it. The bitching is getting old. It is what it is, deal with it, I say. But be sure to give a "fuck you" anytime you talk to your insurance company.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    Man, there really should have been an Xzibit cameo in Inception.

  4. #164
    Wow so you think they are going to lower rates once it kicks in.

    Cool deal, which side of Mount Rushmore is it now?
    The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    Wow so you think they are going to lower rates once it kicks in.

    Cool deal, which side of Mount Rushmore is it now?
    You do know you're blaming a bill for stuff before its even taken effect right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Slummish View Post
    My husband and I have medical, dental, vision, AD&D and $250,000 each in life insurance policies. We pay a little extra for a plan that lets us see our preferred doctors rather than ones dictated to us by the system. This coverage costs us exactly $141.00 per month in total through a major American firm. That's $1,700.00 per year.
    I'm pretty sure you pay out of pocket for most of your services.

    The IRS is assuming what they call Bronze coverage, which probably means insurance will pay for most of your expensive treatments (eg. cancer).

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    Wow so you think they are going to lower rates once it kicks in.

    Cool deal, which side of Mount Rushmore is it now?
    They will HAVE to lower rates to be able to compete. Sigh, take some elementary economics courses.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    You do know you're blaming a bill for stuff before its even taken effect right?
    Provisions of Obamacare have been in effect since it passed.

    You know that of course and are being intentionally obtuse.
    The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities.

  9. #169
    Scarab Lord aikoyamamato's Avatar
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    Orem, UT
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    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    Imagine how much better it would have been if they just went and did proper universal healthcare without the "Socialism is the devil!" rhetoric.
    "Socialism" is considered worse than many obscenities in my workplace. I almost lost my job when one of my coworkers complained after a debate we had.

    ...I live in Utah.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosse88 View Post
    The IRS, by nature of failed wording in the ACA, has no provision to cover those that cannot afford these rates. That is FACT and they are worried about it (all levels, both parties).
    Lol. You'd think any politician with brains would solve this problem BEFORE passing it. But no, have to have that bill to brag to your money-grabbing constituents about, and of course something to blame on the Republicans.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    Man since this debacle of a bill was passed I've watched the health care cost on insurance I have jump and jump and jump. It's probably going to cost even more than this when all is said and done.
    Mine went down. Booyah!
    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    Man, there really should have been an Xzibit cameo in Inception.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    Provisions of Obamacare have been in effect since it passed.

    You know that of course and are being intentionally obtuse.
    And prices were rising for decades prior to Obamacare coming into effect.

    I won't assume you actually knew that though.

    So let's recap. You're blaming a bill that hasn't even taken full effect yet for something that started happening decades ago.

    Right on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodninja View Post
    They will HAVE to lower rates to be able to compete. Sigh, take some elementary economics courses.
    In your imaginary world.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 06:02 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    And prices were rising for decades prior to Obamacare coming into effect.

    I won't assume you actually knew that though.

    So let's recap. You're blaming a bill that hasn't even taken full effect yet for something that started happening decades ago.

    Right on.
    I'm blaming a bill that accelerated the rising cost with it's partial implementation and likely will make them skyrocket further once it does.
    The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    You do know the bill hasn't even fully kicked in right?
    Insurance companies are already preparing for the increase in their rolls from people they previously could exclude (college kids, high-risk, etc.) and as such are increasing rates.

    I'm in a self-pay insurance plan and they've been sending notices since Obamacare passed as law and have been dramatically increasing rates since then. Many states limit the rate of increase per year or per quarter so they need to increase NOW to get prices where they need them by 2016. My plan has TRIPLED in price in just the last few years. The insurance company just sends out notices repeatedly "Because of the coming changes due to the blah blah blah". I have Blue Cross, probably one of the best health insurers in the US so it's not some backwoods company.

    Again, my insurance which was previously a few hundred dollars per month will soon cost more than my mortgage...I guess I will be paying the $2000 penalty to the IRS and I'll be uninsured. Fantastic.

  15. #175
    High Overlord
    Join Date
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    You deserve to look exactly as much a fool as you are for listening to CNS.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodninja View Post
    They will HAVE to lower rates to be able to compete. Sigh, take some elementary economics courses.
    Because when a population loses the option to opt out of a purchase, the price goes down?

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Tornainbow View Post
    Insurance companies are already preparing for the increase in their rolls from people they previously could exclude (college kids, high-risk, etc.) and as such are increasing rates.

    I'm in a self-pay insurance plan and they've been sending notices since Obamacare passed as law and have been dramatically increasing rates since then. Many states limit the rate of increase per year or per quarter so they need to increase NOW to get prices where they need them by 2016. My plan has TRIPLED in price in just the last few years. The insurance company just sends out notices repeatedly "Because of the coming changes due to the blah blah blah". I have Blue Cross, probably one of the best health insurers in the US so it's not some backwoods company.

    Again, my insurance which was previously a few hundred dollars per month will soon cost more than my mortgage...I guess I will be paying the $2000 penalty to the IRS and I'll be uninsured. Fantastic.
    Shocking, a for-profit company is intentionally gouging their customers and then blaming it on something else.
    "But uh, says on your chart that you're fucked up. You talk like a fag and your shit's all retarded!"

    On Parole from Retard Rehabilitation since June 6, 2014.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    You do know you're blaming a bill for stuff before its even taken effect right?
    So let's recap. You're blaming a bill that hasn't even taken full effect yet for something that started happening decades ago.
    Make up your mind.
    The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities.

  19. #179
    Insurance companies are already preparing for the increase in their rolls from people they previously could exclude (college kids, high-risk, etc.) and as such are increasing rates.
    Insurance companies are thrilled right now because they're going to be getting nice checks from the government to insure poor people. We're handing them customers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    Because when a population loses the option to opt out of a purchase, the price goes down?
    When you also control the ability of those same medical insurance companies to take more than 15% profit, then yes, it certainly has the potential to go down.

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