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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Megraam View Post
    Last time they fixed Ret abuse-it-or-be-at-bottom it was AW-HA pull. Haven't seen it compensated also it definitely dropped us lower.
    They never really commented on that. They did comment on the pre-pull stuff though.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megraam View Post
    I'd like you to check the current PVE situation (all t14h bosses) and think over your "middle of the pack" sentence once again.
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...14/30/default/
    Keep in mind these are still top 200 logs overall, so people playing these classes know what are they doing. More than that, ret to be competitive relies on some cheesy tricks other classes don't rely on (I can't say mages removing their weapon to prevent proc from invocation and so on as cheesy as using a gear from previous expansion and so on), which will be removed soon thus dropping ret even lower.



    Nah, I've never intended to insult you, or your skills, or your progress. Ad hominem isn't a good strategy, so I've never even opened your armory or anything. It's just the situation is obvious for those who raid themselves and those who don't can assess the situation using logs and simc — the exact solution I've offered you. Other classes, you say? Current ret is better only than hunters, who were amazing in pvp not early ago. Wait for tuning changes, you say? Haha, that's exactly what we're all waiting for since cata launched. And till wotlk launched as well, btw.
    Fair enough, I'll admit I don't look at parses and such, I just have never really had an issue with my own dps being low, but then again I barely ever do any Heroic raiding at all. I prefer to raid with friends who are just not top-notch, prolly 80% of the way there, so they are more of a Normal mode pace. But the problem is right now they really aren't going to do any changes. With the buffing they are doign to PvP though, I wouldn't be surprised if damage is something that is increased, at least sustained.
    That won't come from glyphs, though.

  3. #23
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Fair enough, I'll admit I don't look at parses and such, I just have never really had an issue with my own dps being low, but then again I barely ever do any Heroic raiding at all. I prefer to raid with friends who are just not top-notch, prolly 80% of the way there, so they are more of a Normal mode pace. But the problem is right now they really aren't going to do any changes. With the buffing they are doign to PvP though, I wouldn't be surprised if damage is something that is increased, at least sustained.
    That won't come from glyphs, though.
    dps is based on players who play the class to 110% effectiveness in heroic raids. Your OWN dps vs your raid team doesn't matter because skill can vary widely.

    I can prolly beat 99.9% of the mages/wars/locks in the world but that is just because I'm a better player. Equal footing and gear with a player at my skill level though. You stand no chance unless the fight favor's a gimmic in your class <wind lord burst>

    If the best ret in the world and the best warrior in the world have a massive gap in damage consistetnly on single target then something needs done to bring the ret up or bring the offending class down.

    Do we need Sustained buffs to Censure,mastery,2hspec,seals,tv? Yes we certainly do. Just don't buff hammer or exorcism last thing we need is more rng dps when we are begging for sustained.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-02-02 at 12:21 AM.

  4. #24
    By the way, have they fixed our mastery getting hit by resilience twice yet? The TV gets reduced, and then the mastery attack from it gets hit by resilience again. They mentioned that they would look at it a few months ago, and I haven't heard anything sense.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    I can prolly beat 99.9% of the mages/wars/locks in the world but that is just because I'm a better player. Equal footing and gear with a player at my skill level though. You stand no chance unless the fight favor's a gimmic in your class <wind lord burst>
    Even then, that particular mechanic favors another spec even more-so with burst that is more available.

    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    If the best ret in the world and the best warrior in the world have a massive gap in damage consistetnly on single target then something needs done to bring the ret up or bring the offending class down.
    I hope they do a better job of it all-around, seriously. Being that much behind, sucks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    By the way, have they fixed our mastery getting hit by resilience twice yet? The TV gets reduced, and then the mastery attack from it gets hit by resilience again. They mentioned that they would look at it a few months ago, and I haven't heard anything sense.
    Yeah I'm pretty sure that was fixed.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Ret has few pve problems. It's scaling will just get better with gear, we are middle of the pack, and our T15 set bonuses are looking strong.
    Since when was "every class has a better DPS spec" middle of the pack? The specs the majority of raiders don't use because they are under performing aren't part of "the pack". They're warming the bench.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryve View Post
    Since when was "every class has a better DPS spec" middle of the pack? The specs the majority of raiders don't use because they are under performing aren't part of "the pack". They're warming the bench.
    Not to continue the pointless argument much longer, but considering even that link shows that druids and priests and monks are all pretty much in the same boat as us.. with hunters below us, yeah, pretty much I understand we are in a mediocre spot, but they aren't in the tuning phase of development. Believe me, I can understand being cynical, I've tried to PvP as Ret for 7-7.5 years with all of its ups and downs. That still doesn't change the fact that the post that OP quoted was referencing PvP, and affecting glyphs, which will rarely be flat dps increases without a trade-off.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Not to continue the pointless argument much longer, but considering even that link shows that druids and priests and monks are all pretty much in the same boat as us.. with hunters below us, yeah, pretty much I understand we are in a mediocre spot, but they aren't in the tuning phase of development. Believe me, I can understand being cynical, I've tried to PvP as Ret for 7-7.5 years with all of its ups and downs. That still doesn't change the fact that the post that OP quoted was referencing PvP, and affecting glyphs, which will rarely be flat dps increases without a trade-off.
    I'll agree that monks could do with better DPS, but hunter? BM is doing OK, the fact that a lot of people want SV to be the top doesn't mean the class is struggling. Shadow is falling behind a bit, but since they're shedding a lot of PvP utility their DPS will probably be buffed. Druids are in a similar situation to ret, but for the fact they have a lot more fights where they are able to pull ahead. The problem with ret being the weakest DPS spec is more so that they keep completely changing the spec and leaving it with horrible DPS, over and over.

  9. #29
    Warchief Sett's Avatar
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    I'm scared of buffs. I'm afraid always they'll give us something good but then hotfix it a week later to make it twice as bad as it was before.
    Quote Originally Posted by r03dz View Post
    Also, Jaina and Vereesa going for a rid on their skeleton horses. :P (typo intended)
    Let's look fabulous~. A Paladin transmogrifier item list.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    yeah, pretty much I understand we are in a mediocre spot, but they aren't in the tuning phase of development.
    Please keep in mind that data and numbers are from LIVE, actually you can make a 3 months selection to cover almost all MoP raiding altogether, and you'll see the same result. Patch after patch we hope to go up from the bottom and that doesn't happen. The issue with ret being not easy class to minmax, maybe one of the hardest from melee only adds insult to injury, we really have to do our best to ourdps at least 5-6 people in our raid.

    The ptr situation, at least in our scaled gear looks even worse. Of course, I am waiting for tuning as well, but damn, my limit of begging tier pieces from loot because "it will boost me better" is finished =)

  11. #31
    Pandaren Monk Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    dps is based on players who play the class to 110% effectiveness in heroic raids. Your OWN dps vs your raid team doesn't matter because skill can vary widely.

    I can prolly beat 99.9% of the mages/wars/locks in the world but that is just because I'm a better player. Equal footing and gear with a player at my skill level though. You stand no chance unless the fight favor's a gimmic in your class <wind lord burst>

    If the best ret in the world and the best warrior in the world have a massive gap in damage consistetnly on single target then something needs done to bring the ret up or bring the offending class down.

    Do we need Sustained buffs to Censure,mastery,2hspec,seals,tv? Yes we certainly do. Just don't buff hammer or exorcism last thing we need is more rng dps when we are begging for sustained.
    I agree the best way in my personal opinion to buff our sustain dmg is a simple flat 5% more increase to our sword of light passive + another 5% to our templar verdict because it's our finisher it suppose to be scary strong.

  12. #32
    Herald of the Titans Valarius's Avatar
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    These "ideas" are shit. There's a great thread in the same forum that has some much more interesting and viable solutions:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7811541443

    Still not perfect, and still doesn't address problems such as our extremely pathetic defence game, such as dem 30k WoGs vs 90k crits from just about every class and our complete lack of overall damage reduction tools compared with DK/Warr/Rogue (Enh is arguably in the same boat as on that).

    We don't need a snare on LH; it's still largely useless and something people will just go "oh, better use my disengage/blink/teleport/leap/roll/sprint an get out of it, completely negating a 1minute cooldown of ours.

    We don't *need* the Blessed Life effect; A chance for a HoPo on an actual CC with a 20 second cooldown (so at most, 3/min) is not going to be a big damage or healing boon.

    If they put the Glyph of TV effect on Exorcism ASWELL AS TV, it could be a help vs ranged to take some of the damage off while we play catchup. If they do it INSTEAD OF, say goodbye to predictable, reliable damage reduction, and goodbye to a shred more of our survivability.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    dps is based on players who play the class to 110% effectiveness in heroic raids. Your OWN dps vs your raid team doesn't matter because skill can vary widely.

    I can prolly beat 99.9% of the mages/wars/locks in the world but that is just because I'm a better player. Equal footing and gear with a player at my skill level though. You stand no chance unless the fight favor's a gimmic in your class <wind lord burst>

    If the best ret in the world and the best warrior in the world have a massive gap in damage consistetnly on single target then something needs done to bring the ret up or bring the offending class down.

    Do we need Sustained buffs to Censure,mastery,2hspec,seals,tv? Yes we certainly do. Just don't buff hammer or exorcism last thing we need is more rng dps when we are begging for sustained.
    The fury warrior in my guild and myself and nearly identical in gear, though I may have better stuff then he does, mostly through gold coins. We ar nearly neck at neck, until the boss is in Execute range. Then he just blows me away. And that's a patchwork type fight. There are lots of fights where things get low enough in health that get in Execute range.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    The fury warrior in my guild and myself and nearly identical in gear, though I may have better stuff then he does, mostly through gold coins. We ar nearly neck at neck, until the boss is in Execute range. Then he just blows me away. And that's a patchwork type fight. There are lots of fights where things get low enough in health that get in Execute range.
    He's probably just under-performing. Their sustained is much stronger than Ret, easily enough to overtake after ret CD gains wear off.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryve View Post
    He's probably just under-performing. Their sustained is much stronger than Ret, easily enough to overtake after ret CD gains wear off.
    Yeah they usually end up ~10% higher, all things equal.

  16. #36
    Banned JhanZ's Avatar
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    Ret sustained very low/burst just okay?

    Let's buff utility!

  17. #37
    Make our Burst CDs every 1 min ? who need sustained dmg after that !

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlord Qais View Post
    Make our Burst CDs every 1 min ? who need sustained dmg after that !
    Haha, lower the CD, extend the duration make it so you just need to remember to hit the button.
    -Retribution, the path of the protector or mender brought to it's natural conclusion; destroying evil before the weak need to be shielded from it, and before it can wound the innocent.
    | [MoP]Ret Paladin Guide | Fix My DPS | Fix My Heals | Fix My Tanking |

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  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Megraam View Post
    Not solving any of the ret pve problems at all.
    Spot on...

    These changes solve absolutely NOTHING about the flaws of ret in pvp

  20. #40
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    The fury warrior in my guild and myself and nearly identical in gear, though I may have better stuff then he does, mostly through gold coins. We ar nearly neck at neck, until the boss is in Execute range. Then he just blows me away. And that's a patchwork type fight. There are lots of fights where things get low enough in health that get in Execute range.
    When i was referencing cap out dps that top players in the world perform I wasn't talking about PoV of a Normal mode raiding ret. Not to pick on you but that is the exact experience i said had no relevance in the slightest.

    I notice you also got a Normal Darkmist vortex and 2/2d it. You understand the normal mode version is terrible compared to relic yes? I would assume you had relic or else quoting me is an even bigger folly.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-02-03 at 10:08 AM.

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