People's fascination with MOBA games

[Wildmoon]

Being fast up to a certain point is useful but at a certain point, easily achievable by anyone with the time to practice a bit, precision is what becomes far, far more important.

Being fast in SC without messing up your game is hard and not easily achievable by anyone. Non korean pros couldn't even do that properly.

Press building hotkey, press unit and/or upgrade X amount of times. It's really not that difficult to macro. Keeping track of all the macro is what's hard.

To keep track of everything you have to be fast and good at multitasking aka good mechanic.

I...know? I was directly implying decision making is the hard part.

and I think we are talking about mechanic here.

So if there's a game that requires you to get 150 APM, no other requirements, you can just do absolutely anything anywhere.
There's another game where APM doesn't matter but you get points for precisely clicking in certain spots with penalties applied if you're too inaccurate.
Which one requires more mechanical skill?

The comparision would be legit of you don't have push buttons with precision too in StarCraft. Both games you have to push buttons with precision but in SC you have far more to push.

[Remilia]

Just to poke something about the APM thing. APM means crap.
For me, highest I think I've gotten to was Diamond 1st season for SC2. Something like that. Don't really care to play competitively but it was fun for what it is.

Why I say it's crap. Just cause you have high APM doesn't mean your actions mean anything. You see people both in SC and DotA / LoL spamming their right click just to move their character / units where they want. Potentially they could've gone with less actions in total and more effective uses per action. I'd find someone doing 100APM with 99% effectiveness better than someone going 200 APM with most of them being unnecessary actions.

[Wildmoon]

Just to poke something about the APM thing. APM means crap.
For me, highest I think I've gotten to was Diamond 1st season for SC2. Something like that. Don't really care to play competitively but it was fun for what it is.

Why I say it's crap. Just cause you have high APM doesn't mean your actions mean anything. You see people both in SC and DotA / LoL spamming their right click just to move their character / units where they want. Potentially they could've gone with less actions in total and more effective uses per action. I'd find someone doing 100APM with 99% effectiveness better than someone going 200 APM with most of them being unnecessary actions.

It's not crap if you can utilize it. If you can ultilize 80% of 200 APM then you will have huge advantage against 100 APM.

I don't know about Dota but in SC I encourage people to spam even if it's mindless spamming. Spamming is not useless like many people seems to think. They are really really useful. If you always spam when you are playing then it will help you get used to the level of speed which at that time you will not be able to utilize. One day when you get better, you will be able to take full advantage of all those spamming. Playing slowly will only make you use to slow play in StarCraft.

[Deleted]

You only have to control 1 Unit, so its fucking easy as shit, compared to real Games like SC2. DotA-Clones are made for Casuals and most people are Casualscrubs, thats why so many people play that shit.
The problem is that gaming sadly has become mass-media, look how easy all Games have become. Try again some SNES Games and compare them to the Casualbullshit that new Games are. Even things like Bioshock Infininite with 1999-Mode are fucking easy as shit compared to older Games.

[Repefe]

Thing is this epeen smashing has nothing to do with how fun the games are. Most ppl have games as leisure activities they do after they are done with the real work, in real life. Chasing high APM in game with lot's of mechanics and little action ... for most it's not as fun as games with strong mechanics and lots of action.

[Wildmoon]

Thing is this epeen smashing has nothing to do with how fun the games are. Most ppl have games as leisure activities they do after they are done with the real work, in real life. Chasing high APM in game with lot's of mechanics and little action ... for most it's not as fun as games with strong mechanics and lots of action.

Where did you get that from? Strong mechanic for Dota games? That's funny. I won't bother arguing which one is more fun because that's purely subjective but the part about mechanic is objective and you are wrong.

[Repefe]

Where did you get that from? Strong mechanic for Dota games? That's funny. I won't bother arguing which one is more fun because that's purely subjective but the part about mechanic is objective and you are wrong.

It's not objective. Those SC2 mechanics are very shallow when looking at them separately. Building an unit is a mechanic but it does not require "skill" ... it's not really amazing. So you multiply by 10 or 20 or 30 ... only then does it start to matter. Those great SC2 mechanics only emerge when you mass them together. In MOBA games proper positioning, last hitting, harassing, roaming, build ... those mechanics can stand on their own. Just one action alone can be amazing .... you can't say that about macro in SC2. That's boring mechanical snorefest that happens on your background if you fight your opponent ... but often you don't.

And that's how MOBAs came to be ... remove the macro background that is eventless and focus on the micro that is more fun and mechanics in which are much stronger.

[Wildmoon]

It's not objective. Those SC2 mechanics are very shallow when looking at them separately. Building an unit is a mechanic but it does not require "skill" ... it's not really amazing. So you multiply by 10 or 20 or 30 ... only then does it start to matter. Those great SC2 mechanics only emerge when you mass them together. In MOBA games proper positioning, last hitting, harassing, roaming, build ... those mechanics can stand on their own. Just one action alone can be amazing .... you can't say that about macro in SC2. That's boring mechanical snorefest that happens on your background if you fight your opponent ... but often you don't.

And that's how MOBAs came to be ... remove the macro background that is eventless and focus on the micro that is more fun and mechanics in which are much stronger.

Sry, but positioning,micro exist in StarCraft and you don't micro 1 unit. Splitting against banelings is harder than anything Dota has to offer micro wise. Positioning in StarCraft is also crucial. There are unit that are purely designed based on positioning such as tanks or Brood Lord. In StarCraft, you harrass your opponent all over the map. That's ridiculuosly demanding on mechanic. You do all of these while macroing in the background. You are rewarded more for being mechanically good in SC than in Dota. There's no way to argue against that.

I won't argue with you about what is boring and what is not. Also, where did you get the idea that macro is the only part that made SC mechanically much harder than Dota?

[Deleted]

Today I learned half the mmo-c-community are in fact skilled enough for pro-tier DotA but they just don't like the game.

[Duronos]

Today I learned half the mmo-c-community are in fact skilled enough for pro-tier DotA but they just don't like the game.

My thoughts exactly.

Remember guys, all you have to do is put effort in. <--- Most bullshit thing I've ever heard in my life, majority of people will never put effort in because they are to lazy too. Even I suffer from laziness, I have to force myself to go the gym and even then I still don't go. It takes someone who has the mindset of a winner to try and keep on moving forward when failing instead of letting the mental pressure beat you and quitting.

[Repefe]

Sry, but positioning,micro exist in StarCraft and you don't micro 1 unit. Splitting against banelings is harder than anything Dota has to offer micro wise. Positioning in StarCraft is also crucial. There are unit that are purely designed based on positioning such as tanks or Brood Lord. In StarCraft, you harrass your opponent all over the map. That's ridiculuosly demanding on mechanic. You do all of these while macroing in the background. You are rewarded more for being mechanically good in SC than in Dota. There's no way to argue against that.

I won't argue with you about what is boring and what is not. Also, where did you get the idea that macro is the only part that made SC mechanically much harder than Dota?

You consider splitting against banelings or Brood Lord positioning ... hard ? The only thing that makes it hard is that you have to macro on the background. And I can give you that SC2 is mechanically harder than MOBAs, but it goes back to it's not that fun for most because the mechanics are dry ... thus the reason why MOBAs are gaining more and more followers while standard RTS are on the decline. Just look at the situation in Korea how fast they jumped the wagon in what used to be RTS heaven once LoL launched there. As of this year BW or SC2 does not break top 10 there. The saving grace of SC2 is that is still rather popular in EU and US.

[Deleted]

You're not very good in analyzing games and their flow/progress pattern.
I assume that you look on a professional view, in terms of analyzing the games success despite things you percieve as "issues".
If you're just a player, try to find a game you like and move on.

Here are my views on your questions:

I've even been forcing myself to play Dota2 for the past few days, trying to get a good view at how this became so popular...

You're starting WAY to late. DotA is around WAY longer than DotA2 and LOL. You should try to get a view on the whole Warcraft 3 modding szene.
Most of the mechanics are actually imposed by engine limitations in WC3 or "programmer limitations" of the original set of authors.
The whole last hitting mechanic is its own core loop, and tends to be rewarding in its own, yet was not "designed".
Creep blocking, killing the ranged creep first to push lanes, etc, springs from AI-limitations. Most of the special moves of the heroes are recycled Hero moves of the original game. Get to understand the whole development first.

one game session is way too long and the first half of it is basically getting the last shot on the creeps (speaking Dota2 here), which imo is extremely boring. Then there's PvP, sure, that can be fun, but again it mostly boils down to who grinded the most last shots, bought the best gear and learned the abilities of others. As for the actual combat.. not very appealing due to slow pace and click to move - strategy type of game - movement.

You are not getting session length in that aspect. You actually play 3 sessions, always in the same succession. Early, mid and late game are clearly distinct in their goals, their playstyle and their pace. Mobas are core games, whatever other people tell you. People expect a session succession. Like in movies, you switch between action and story in a way that your audience likes. DotA took YEARS to get that right with balancing. (in terms of xp progression)
The plot twist in that case is that the sessions are not equal desireable, as you already mentioned.
Early game is, indeed not as rewarding as late games, mainly because of the speed increase in killing other, weaker heroes. Players prefer late game.
If they "perform" well in the early and mid sessions, they can induce themselfes (this is the important part) a switch into a subsequent phase of the game, and play an entirely different phase of the game, a bit earlier then others.

Casual games usually have a "cooling down phase" between sessions, in Mobas this is replaced by a reward phase and a switch into a different play style.

I know everyone has their own taste in games and I'm one of the people that try A LOT of games and I'm really really not picky - so I thought I'm sure I'll be able to notice at least what others see in MOBA games... but I didn't.

Neither do I understand how this genre became a standard for "pro gaming", looking at what used to be the standard (Quake 3, CS, etc). Sure it takes some skill to play, but it's mostly knowledge. It's knowing the ability of your hero and the abilities of your enemies. But that is knowledge, not skill (I count hand motorics, reflexes, etc as skill) - IMO.

I was always able to notice what made games popular, even if I didn't find the game good myself. But this time I'm giving up, I do not understand how MOBA is so popular. I'm going to just put my MOBA popularity theory as "casualization", due to the way MOBAs are played in the sense that they require more knowing and less skilling.

Actually mobas are more core then CS or Quake. Also they are far better developed. While CS just tests reflexes and has a very long and boring stalking phase and a extremely short combat phase its far less rewarding. Also way less options. If you like the "who clicks a rectangle first" playstyle, you're definetely a casual player.
Mobas are far more developed in terms of options, "combat lore" (learning all the heroes and their development over time) and game options and phases then most of the esports games ever will be.
Because everything fits so well (and was refined over a long amount of time) people like it. If mid-game would be a little bit shorter, or early game would not include the "last hit chore" or towers would be placed differently or the increase of creep-power would be different, it would not be successful on a large scale.

If you want to learn how to do this, get your hands on a old dota-map repositiory and their patch notes. This is very scattered over the internet, but its still there.
Have a look on all the balancing changes and ask yourself what impact they have on the game.

Good day

And to you good sir.

[Wildmoon]

You consider splitting against banelings or Brood Lord positioning ... hard ? The only thing that makes it hard is that you have to macro on the background. And I can give you that SC2 is mechanically harder than MOBAs, but it goes back to it's not that fun for most because the mechanics are dry ... thus the reason why MOBAs are gaining more and more followers while standard RTS are on the decline. Just look at the situation in Korea how fast they jumped the wagon in what used to be RTS heaven once LoL launched there. As of this year BW or SC2 does not break top 10 there. The saving grace of SC2 is that is still rather popular in EU and US.

hmm you think splitting against baneling is not hard? The move has so many layers to it that you can never do perfectly.

I have never said positioning of any kind is hard mechanically. Positioning is not something hard to pull of with your hands but it's something you need to do smartly. I just reponsed to you that you talked only about macro then brought up positioning up as the argument for mechanic of Dota.

Also, having to do macro in the background doesn't make micro in SC hard. It just makes it even harder. I don't think you can get that far in marine split challange custom map where you don't have to do anything but splitting marine. Is there any micro in Dota that is hard to perform individually though?

I have won the argument. The popularity of the genres has nothing to do with the argument.

[Eats Compost]

Because they're a team game, and because the variety of heroes/champions/whatever gives the games variety. There certainly isn't a very high individual skillcap the way that arena shooters and the like may have, but it's quite common to see quick thinking and team synergy result in big game-swinging plays that it's hard not to get excited by - provided that you understand the game enough to see how significant it is, of course.

I find that SC2, while it certainly involves more skill where micro is concerned, just isn't very interesting as a spectator sport due to the lack of variety, lack of team interaction and general dryness of the whole thing. On the contrary, I was rather entertained by DoTA 2's International 2013 despite not even knowing a single thing about any of the teams, nor having anyone to root for. Team gameplay, in particular, offers a whole new level of entertaining triumphs - and blunders - that aren't really present in things like Starcraft 2, at least in typical 1v1 competitive matches.

Fighters are also a good spectator sport, for both similar and different reasons. The big rosters help out for variety, whereas the short game duration makes them easy to watch and the density of activity ensures that you're actually seeing something happen.

You could argue that DoTA 2 (as an example) is boring or slow-paced, but things often get very aggressive very quickly in competitive games, and the game is largely built on an arms race that lasthits, denies and ganks all fuel. It's a part of the state of the game, and watching the advantage pass back and forwards from mistakes and successes and failures from both sides is something I like watching.

I don't really think as highly of LoL thanks to how predictable it is, but some of the principles remain the same there.

[jasdasm]

You consider splitting against banelings or Brood Lord positioning ... hard ? The only thing that makes it hard is that you have to macro on the background. And I can give you that SC2 is mechanically harder than MOBAs, but it goes back to it's not that fun for most because the mechanics are dry ... thus the reason why MOBAs are gaining more and more followers while standard RTS are on the decline. Just look at the situation in Korea how fast they jumped the wagon in what used to be RTS heaven once LoL launched there. As of this year BW or SC2 does not break top 10 there. The saving grace of SC2 is that is still rather popular in EU and US.

Starcraft became the Game it is because it was more or less "free 2 play". Im sure SC2 would be huge too.. Other Problem was the Release right in the time of Moba Hypes

[The Jester]

Idk, personally ever since I started to get much better in RTS, I couldn't take MOBA seriously anymore. (Personal opinion)

[Repefe]

hmm you think splitting against baneling is not hard? The move has so many layers to it that you can never do perfectly.

I have never said positioning of any kind is hard mechanically. Positioning is not something hard to pull of with your hands but it's something you need to do smartly. I just reponsed to you that you talked only about macro then brought up positioning up as the argument for mechanic of Dota.

Also, having to do macro in the background doesn't make micro in SC hard. It just makes it even harder. I don't think you can get that far in marine split challange custom map where you don't have to do anything but splitting marine. Is there any micro in Dota that is hard to perform individually though?

I have won the argument. The popularity of the genres has nothing to do with the argument.

What was the argument.

- - - Updated - - -

Starcraft became the Game it is because it was more or less "free 2 play". Im sure SC2 would be huge too.. Other Problem was the Release right in the time of Moba Hypes

Some say the problem was that SC was much more 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 oriented while SC2 focused mostly on 1v1. With more players you get much more of the social interaction which is also part of the fun.

[Wildmoon]

What was the argument.

Which game is harder mechanically,depth of mechanic,which game reward you more for being good at mechanic.

[Repefe]

Which game is harder mechanically,depth of mechanic,which game reward you more for being good at mechanic.

Yeah, but my argument is that mechanics are hard and deep and rewarding enough in MOBA games. The only reason why you would want to go for SC2 is if you want bigger volume of mechanics and didn't care about all the other stuff that MOBA games offer.

[Wildmoon]

Yeah, but my argument is that mechanics are hard and deep and rewarding enough in MOBA games. The only reason why you would want to go for SC2 is if you want bigger volume of mechanics and didn't care about all the other stuff that MOBA games offer.

It's simply matter of taste. People who like RTS will go for RTS game. I have no argument about which game is more fun. That's purely subjective but MOBA is certainly more popular than RTS.