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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    One of those I don't like this game but I am so expert about it pros don't know what they are talking about. Pro players often mention that when they take a break from the game they lose their touch at very fast rate. They don't lose their "knowledge" of the game ... they just become rusty. Their mechanical skill deteriorate and you can't play without it. And LoL is often mentioned as the most spectator friendly MOBA game because it's quite clear what's going on in the game even to somebody who never played the game. Not to mention thanks to the variety that MOBA games have every game is different unlike for example SC2 or CS where the variety is pretty minimal. That makes it even more suited for spectating.
    This isn't really true though. I currently am playing a lot of Dota 2 and SC2. I would consider myself quite good at both games and I enjoy both games, obviously or I wouldn't be playing them. But, Dota, and I would assume other MOBA games as well since Dota 2 is said to be the hardest, is not as hard as SC2. It's not even close really.

    Dota do require skill and quite a bit off it. Teamfights are down to timings and coordination, playing against other heroes is down to knowledge about them, pushing is down to coordination.

    If you play late game protos your main army might have Vortex, storm and guardian shields as spells and you have to worry about splitting, position, keeping up production, maybe drop harassing and drop microing units. A tech switch from your opponent needs to be immediately answered and his harass squashed. It's really not comparable. SC 2 is notorious for being hard to play and that's also why its following is smaller.

    MOBA games are more beginner friendly and thus have larger communities and viewer base.

    I'm not bashing MOBA games, I think they are great, but even though there is definitely skill involved in playing them, that's not where they get their popularity from and it is not harder then SC2.

    Saying that LoL games are more varied then SC2 games are also false. They might look a like on the surface but I dare you to find two SC2 games at the pro level where cheesing is not involved which are exactly the same.

  2. #42
    Stood in the Fire Some Random Guy's Avatar
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    yeah. this has been on my mind since most of my friends started playing LoL or DOTA2. I gave LoL a try, I really wanted to like it, but it was so slow paced, all you did was grind the first 30 min, scoring an occasional kill. I never really got into the genre because of this.

    I did however, manage to get some of them to play Bloodline Champions, another F2P game that's MOBA like, only you remove the lanes, the creeps and the shop, basically stripping it down to 3v3/5v5 arena. A game takes a maximum of like 10 min, it's fast paced and skill based. Well, maybe it's not very MOBA like, but it feels MOBAish atleast, in it's spells and movement. I can really recommend it

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Grable View Post
    For quite some time I've been trying to understand what is up with the popularity of MOBA games and why are they so popular and mostly, how did this become the most played/popular genre for eSports.

    I've even been forcing myself to play Dota2 for the past few days, trying to get a good view at how this became so popular... And yet I still do not see it or understand it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's a bad game or something, or that it can't be fun but this popular? I can't imagine how - the slow pace, one game session is way too long and the first half of it is basically getting the last shot on the creeps (speaking Dota2 here), which imo is extremely boring. Then there's PvP, sure, that can be fun, but again it mostly boils down to who grinded the most last shots, bought the best gear and learned the abilities of others. As for the actual combat.. not very appealing due to slow pace and click to move - strategy type of game - movement.

    I know everyone has their own taste in games and I'm one of the people that try A LOT of games and I'm really really not picky - so I thought I'm sure I'll be able to notice at least what others see in MOBA games... but I didn't.

    Neither do I understand how this genre became a standard for "pro gaming", looking at what used to be the standard (Quake 3, CS, etc). Sure it takes some skill to play, but it's mostly knowledge. It's knowing the ability of your hero and the abilities of your enemies. But that is knowledge, not skill (I count hand motorics, reflexes, etc as skill) - IMO.

    I was always able to notice what made games popular, even if I didn't find the game good myself. But this time I'm giving up, I do not understand how MOBA is so popular. I'm going to just put my MOBA popularity theory as "casualization", due to the way MOBAs are played in the sense that they require more knowing and less skilling.

    Good day
    If you want to know how MOBA games are all this succesful, dont start with DOTA 2 or HoN. Those are the two less friendly to new players of all the MOBA. Start with the old DOTA or with LoL.

    And the answer is pretty simple, they are well balanced games that do not introduce stupid things like dailies to ruin themselves.

    Also, not all the genre's can turn into eSports, MOBA can, and they are easier to follow than Korean SC2 players that end a whole game in 5 minutes with dozens of units...

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    If you want to know how MOBA games are all this succesful, dont start with DOTA 2 or HoN. Those are the two less friendly to new players of all the MOBA. Start with the old DOTA or with LoL.
    What. WC3 Dota and Dota2 are literally the same game, except one of them has a god awful UI and horrible spell effects
    I would never recommend WC3 Dota over Dota2, except if you want to play the heroes that are not ported over yet
    Quote Originally Posted by icylock View Post
    Gamon spends more time of his knees and back than haris pilton...

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by blib View Post
    This isn't really true though. I currently am playing a lot of Dota 2 and SC2. I would consider myself quite good at both games and I enjoy both games, obviously or I wouldn't be playing them. But, Dota, and I would assume other MOBA games as well since Dota 2 is said to be the hardest, is not as hard as SC2. It's not even close really.

    Dota do require skill and quite a bit off it. Teamfights are down to timings and coordination, playing against other heroes is down to knowledge about them, pushing is down to coordination.

    If you play late game protos your main army might have Vortex, storm and guardian shields as spells and you have to worry about splitting, position, keeping up production, maybe drop harassing and drop microing units. A tech switch from your opponent needs to be immediately answered and his harass squashed. It's really not comparable. SC 2 is notorious for being hard to play and that's also why its following is smaller.

    MOBA games are more beginner friendly and thus have larger communities and viewer base.

    I'm not bashing MOBA games, I think they are great, but even though there is definitely skill involved in playing them, that's not where they get their popularity from and it is not harder then SC2.

    Saying that LoL games are more varied then SC2 games are also false. They might look a like on the surface but I dare you to find two SC2 games at the pro level where cheesing is not involved which are exactly the same.
    You say that what I say is not true and then go on to talk about something else as an explanation. If you read carefully I am not comparing SC2 to LoL. The whole comparing skill required between games is pretty useless in my opinion. What matters is for casual gamer the skill cap in LoL is sky high. To get to diamond league you have to invest awful lot of time in practice. So why does it matter that there are other games with even higher skill caps. You can't reach it anyway. You can argue that the skill curve is not steep enough for you, but in the end even if it is not steep enough you still can't get to the top. And if you are looking for bigger challenge you can always pick champ that requires it. I have seen some jaw dropping nidalee and tf plays for example.

    And that SC2 games are not exactly the same, well after watching more than a few they all feel the same. With just 3 factions, no map objectives and few viable strategies there is not much room for combinations. But I still do watch SC2 from time to time.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 04:53 PM ----------

    More important for the streaming is with MOBA games the streamer can go on and on about different match ups, builds, what's going on, explain mistakes ... SC2 steamers they usually play in silence so their macro does not slip.
    Last edited by Repefe; 2013-02-01 at 03:53 PM.

    What's the worst that can happen to you ...

  6. #46
    It is very easy to understand, so, these arguments are correct:
    Quote Originally Posted by juzalol View Post
    1. It's popular because it's team based, competitive and relatively easy to grasp the basics of it. You won't play
    two identical games ever in your life. Especially if you random your hero, play single draft or all random. 3-5 players
    per team supports the idea of having a group of friends playing games perfectly and if you compare it to something like
    Counter Strike it's far more forgiving to new players[in term of game mechanics, not community].

    2. It's the standard of "Pro Gaming" because it's popular. Casual community is the backbone of
    all e-sports as you need a large playerbase to be interested in the game to watch the gaming events.
    High viewer count will attract sponsors which will bring money to the scene which will bring pro players.

    I personally don't like watching pro matches of moba games as I honestly don't think there is much individual
    skill involved. When I see people play moba games at the "highest level" It's usually just team coordination,
    communication and player synergy instead of being extremely skilled and polished player.
    + it's fast paced competetive gaming
    + you can chose from many very diffrent champions/heroes, LoL has got champions, each of them unique
    + itemization and "grinding gear" is very fast, you feel the progress instantly
    + teamplay and competition, it gives alot of fun, you are not fighting booring scripts, you are fighting "almost" random 3-5 players, almost always those are players you have never meet before, each of them has got unique gameplay style, so almost every game you discover new opponents, this is veeery exciting
    + you can play any time you want, even against bots for some chill
    + champions are easy to learn, hard to master (well, some are easy to master but still require alot of tacticial thinking)
    + you can freelry talk and do other stuff while playing it, for instance, I talk on the phone or with others irl, moba very occassinaly requires 100% attention, also...matches are fast, up to 55min (I have never had LoL match longer than ~55min) but normally 30-40min.
    + spectacors can (LoL mainly) clearly see what is going on and enjoy it
    + many more great reasons.

    For me, LoL is the one and only "online game" for now and will be for a while, it gives me all I want and I don't have to grind for weeks to be aple to compete with others or enjoy the content, so because of LoL I am not interested in any mmorpg besides Path of Exile which I play when I wanna chill. Of course I will play SC2, Counter-Strike:Source and single players games, but still, moba games are the king of the hill.
    Last edited by Slaughty8; 2013-02-01 at 04:04 PM.

  7. #47
    I simply cannot understand the appeal of LoL. I find the game horrendous, in every possible way. Dota\Dota2 i actually find fun, but on a very casual, big group of friends mocking each other on comms during a game, kind of game. All the e-Sport 'vibe' just feels wrong on that kind of game, plus, i find watching them through streams to be absolutely uninteresting.

    To each his own .

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    You say that what I say is not true and then go on to talk about something else as an explanation. If you read carefully I am not comparing SC2 to LoL. The whole comparing skill required between games is pretty useless in my opinion. What matters is for casual gamer the skill cap in LoL is sky high. To get to diamond league you have to invest awful lot of time in practice. So why does it matter that there are other games with even higher skill caps. You can't reach it anyway. You can argue that the skill curve is not steep enough for you, but in the end even if it is not steep enough you still can't get to the top. And if you are looking for bigger challenge you can always pick champ that requires it. I have seen some jaw dropping nidalee and tf plays for example.

    And that SC2 games are not exactly the same, well after watching more than a few they all feel the same. With just 3 factions, no map objectives and few viable strategies there is not much room for combinations. But I still do watch SC2 from time to time.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 04:53 PM ----------

    More important for the streaming is with MOBA games the streamer can go on and on about different match ups, builds, what's going on, explain mistakes ... SC2 steamers they usually play in silence so their macro does not slip.
    I wouldn't say it's sky high. It's there but I do think it's reachable for anyone who have a minimum requirement of skill and a lot of time which they put into improving them-self, and practicing mechanics. Casual is the main difference here I believe. I usually start off by playing SC2 when I'm more alert and awake because the game demands so much of me, playing in top masters, and then switch to a moba when I'm getting tired. It's more casual and I can still play on a fairly high level without straining myself. This is a great strength for the game and why it will always be more popular then SC2, it simply requires less of you.

    SC 2 is the harder game while mobas, while retaining a fairly high skill cap, is very casual friendly. Both appeal to different audiences, which is nothing but a good thing. There should be a game for everyone ratter then trying to shoehorn everyone into one format, the way WoW does.

    I'm sure tehy do, and like I said, on the surface they are fairly similar but that's the thing with SC2, positioning and every last unit in your comp, build order and so on matters so much that even when you have two games where both players are going for the exact same build there will be differences that will drastically change the outcome.

    As for variety, I play Zerg, and against protos my current build pool includes, 2 base roach rush, banelings bust, mass slowling, roach/ling max, 2 base muta, three base muta, two base infestor, three base infestor, standar spine/ling/infestor into brood, hydra/infestor into brood, roach/hydra/corruptor, infestor/baneling/ultralisks. That's just the blueprint differences not even taking into account adjustments for opponent's build and engagements.

    When it comes to the stream you have a completely fair point, which again goes back to the overhanging theme of casual. To really get a lot out of SC2 streams you need to understand the game on a detailed level. Not the same for LoL.

  9. #49
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Honestly it doesn't need to be overly complicated. These are the 3 reasons.

    1) Free
    2) PvP that appeals to the the CoD generation
    3) Variety
    BAD WOLF

  10. #50
    Dreadlord KunkkaTheAdmiral's Avatar
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    Please elaborate how the PvP that happens in DotA from 2004 appeals to something like the "CoD" generation @ Kittyvicious, im curious.

    I for myself like DotA and other "MOBA" games, though I dislike the name Moba heavily, its fun, its never the same, you play versus other players. Shooters are not mine, but this definently is.
    "Why do we fight? To protect home and family, to preserve balance and bring harmony. For my kind the true question is, what is worth fighting for?"

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Honestly it doesn't need to be overly complicated. These are the 3 reasons.

    1) Free
    2) PvP that appeals to the the WoW generation
    3) Variety
    Fixed 10 chars

  12. #52
    Its a rage/trend. It'll wash over sooner or later.

    Also, given I see every sport as a game no matter if it is hockey, soccer, chess, or Scrabble the comment "MOBA became the standard of pro-gaming" is pretty damn laughable. E-sport, perhaps.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  13. #53
    youtube(DOT)com/watch?v=GX7jIKoDdzo Now tell me how this is not skill.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Slaughty8 View Post
    For me, LoL is the one and only "online game" for now and will be for a while, it gives me all I want and I don't have to grind for weeks to be aple to compete with others or enjoy the content,
    Sure you don't have to grind for weeks to get the runes and buy the best champions and lvl 30.
    Don't even tell me you can compete without all that vs someone with equal skill... wait you can, because they just release champions as fast as they humanly possible to make more money and care little about balance, just gotta buy them new champions with your hard earned money and keep telling yourself its worth it because you're having "fun", but why not just shoot up some crack? sounds more fun and healthy than a moba in terms of brain rotting.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Trizack View Post
    youtube(DOT)com/watch?v=GX7jIKoDdzo Now tell me how this is not skill.
    Yeah... no.

  16. #56
    Pandaren Monk Marthenil's Avatar
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    Because the so called "competitive scene" (Read that in a 15 yo annoying puberty -possibly bracers too- voice) is so cool right now and everyone playing said competitive games are uberl33t. Moba's are easier to pick up and "shine" so people feel special.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Daraiki View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Honestly it doesn't need to be overly complicated. These are the 3 reasons.
    1) Free
    2) PvP that appeals to the the WoW generation
    3) Variety
    Fixed 10 chars
    DotA(First ARTS) is older than WoW. It's neither CoD nor WoW generation it appeals to.

  18. #58
    Pandaren Monk barackopala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Honestly it doesn't need to be overly complicated. These are the 3 reasons.

    1) Free
    2) PvP that appeals to the the CoD generation
    3) Variety
    It's mindboggling you mind to consider CoD being appealing to that generation, it's a complete different genre which most of my friends liked (the MOBA one) due to it's fast paced combat and subtle rpg elements that could be taken in consideration for casual play.





    Quote Originally Posted by Skadovsk View Post
    Sure you don't have to grind for weeks to get the runes and buy the best champions and lvl 30.
    Don't even tell me you can compete without all that vs someone with equal skill... wait you can, because they just release champions as fast as they humanly possible to make more money and care little about balance, just gotta buy them new champions with your hard earned money and keep telling yourself its worth it because you're having "fun", but why not just shoot up some crack? sounds more fun and healthy than a moba in terms of brain rotting.
    Easy: Newer champions are hardly developed by the players, if you don't know about them you barely know which items are nieche in their space itself, even relatively new champios are barely even played (like Viktor for example) and that's because players don't manage to embrace the champion itself and study what is it good at, newer champions are a setback for most players due to that (other players simply don't pick them because they don't see progamers using it, thus making it a "BADPICK HUEHUEHUEHU", you'll always be on the edge if you know how to play properly and not to overextend, runes and masteries do help but those helps once you're post-20 and already know how to play a bloody champ, so no, you'll end up punishing yourself for trying new champs without any knowledge or training with it.
    Last edited by barackopala; 2013-02-01 at 05:07 PM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    DotA(First ARTS) is older than WoW. It's neither CoD nor WoW generation it appeals to.
    I see you do not know the DOTA 2 community that well or the history of Dota for that matter....

    Tell me when did min/max come into play in Dota?

    Oooh and Dota was not the first "ARTS/MOBA/LPG/....."
    Last edited by Daraiki; 2013-02-01 at 05:16 PM.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Duronos View Post
    @juzalol Alright... LoL has no skill hmmm? I would fully disagree. Have you ever been in the soloqueue? Reach 1900+ and you can say whatever you want because soloqueue is highly skill based. You don't have a team over voice chat etc. So that's all that teamwork element gone just about, tell me why pretty much every pro player who makes a smurf account can get right back up to that elo and i can't get past 1500. Reason I can't is because I'm not skilled enough.

    I have an extensive knowledge of this game but my brother is still better than me and has barely any knowledge of compared to most at his skill level. Please, since the ladders have changed, please try to reach championship tier and I'll make sure you can go to the moon or something if you do.
    So you define a skill-based game around how hard it is to win with random unknown bads rather than with an organized team?

    That's like you say normal raids in WoW are extremely skill-based and extremely hard because it could be a problem to do it without any communication (via chat or voice chat) and with 9 complete strangers (also to each other).

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