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  1. #81
    Brewmaster juzalol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    This is where your argument really breaks down. This is honestly no different than any situation you've brought up, especially given the number of variables in location, opponent, and so on.

    It takes just as many plays to develop successful habits and strategies. It's no different than anything else. There are also thresholds in the level of your opponent that reset your learning curve and won't apply to any other scenario you've already learned. To dumb this genre down like it's not the same as everything else is giving too much credit to other genres and/or not enough to this one
    Same applies to other games too. You have to know what to do in each situation. The difference is that in Moba games once you know
    what to do the action itself is very simple to execute unlike in other e-sport games. Once you have decided to optimal action, executing
    it is mechanically hard and often times fails even if your enemy does not interfere in any way.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by barackopala View Post
    1st of:
    -I'm not talking about sports, that's not the trend, you're throwing my comment completetly overboard stating that FPS or MOBAS can go to Olympics? that's complete BS, never refered to that point at all, do not assume things I didn't say, I do think e-sports are quite skillfull indeed, might be considered sports might not be, but they're e-sports afterall, they DO require skill, the sport discussion is for another time, I didn't talk about it, idk why you just randomly throwed that reply to me.

    2nd:
    -FPS Genre has always been on the competitive scene, MLG has been doing it's job, same as IPL even Dreamhack getting that genre alive (Halo/CoD/CS1.6 among other titles like Quake Arena), so yes, the competitive scene is open for FPS and we could backtrack down to the lines of Doom which is still a praised game and people just love FPS's.

    3rd:
    -Who is talking about credibility in other sports... 0 coherence on your statement according to where my post was headed to.
    How is my statement incoherent? I posted about how this type of game is just a trend / rage (call it hype if you must) which will go away. Back when I grew up, Street Fighter arcade and Pong were considered games about skill. Look where we are now? What I'm saying is it won't be recognized as a real sport like sports which are established at the Olympics. I know you didn't bring up real, regular sports recognized by IOC. I did!

    I never said MOBA doesn't require skill, isn't competitive, or anything like that (heck, I never even played any, but from what I read I find them more competitive than games with dumb grinds like WoW PvE and PvP). Read my replies here. I wrote nowhere what you claim. I never downplayed the skill required to play a FPS game or MOBA game. What I did put into its place, is the credibility MOBA and FPS e-sports have outside of their little cult circles. Let me rub it in your face again: The general population doesn't recognize these e-sports!
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  3. #83
    Haven't played any MOBA game since a few matches in WC3, but the community for that game was so bad I decided to keep a distance from the genre. I'm not sure how the community in LoL and HoN are, I might give these games a try in the future.

    I'm not really sure how it would be fun to watch other people play the game. Then again, I'm no fan of e-sports or anything. And I despise people trying to make it into a real sport.

  4. #84
    Pit Lord barackopala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    How is my statement incoherent? I posted about how this type of game is just a trend / rage (call it hype if you must) which will go away. Back when I grew up, Street Fighter arcade and Pong were considered games about skill. Look where we are now? What I'm saying is it won't be recognized as a real sport like sports which are established at the Olympics. I know you didn't bring up real, regular sports recognized by IOC. I did!

    I never said MOBA doesn't require skill, isn't competitive, or anything like that (heck, I never even played any, but from what I read I find them more competitive than games with dumb grinds like WoW PvE and PvP). Read my replies here. I wrote nowhere what you claim. I never downplayed the skill required to play a FPS game or MOBA game. What I did put into its place, is the credibility MOBA and FPS e-sports have outside of their little cult circles. Let me rub it in your face again: The general population doesn't recognize these e-sports!
    Shall I ask, who's the general population? Starcraft tournaments gets the viewer count of a regular LoL streamer on a solo queue day.
    There is no "general population of e-sports" sorry.

    Street fighter and those games do have a competitive scene, EVO is quite big.
    Last edited by barackopala; 2013-02-01 at 07:20 PM.

  5. #85
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    like many have already said the relative ease of being able to grasp the concept of it on top of the fact that its super casual. there is no grind or gear treadmill, you can come and go as you please.

    i just find it extremely addicting because i love the pvp aspect of it and im constantly trying to get better, theres a never ending challenge for me because i know theres always somebody whose better than me.

    the real kicker of it all though is that its an extremely easy to follow esport. the spectate mode in LoL is very good and i often find myself watching just as many games as i play

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by juzalol View Post
    1. It's popular because it's team based, competitive and relatively easy to grasp the basics of it. You won't play
    two identical games ever in your life. Especially if you random your hero, play single draft or all random. 3-5 players
    per team supports the idea of having a group of friends playing games perfectly and if you compare it to something like
    Counter Strike it's far more forgiving to new players[in term of game mechanics, not community].

    2. It's the standard of "Pro Gaming" because it's popular. Casual community is the backbone of
    all e-sports as you need a large playerbase to be interested in the game to watch the gaming events.
    High viewer count will attract sponsors which will bring money to the scene which will bring pro players.

    I personally don't like watching pro matches of moba games as I honestly don't think there is much individual
    skill involved. When I see people play moba games at the "highest level" It's usually just team coordination,
    communication and player synergy instead of being extremely skilled and polished player.
    I pretty much agree with that.

  7. #87
    Last hitting becomes a mini-game itself. In your lane, you're trying to last hit and deny and keep from being denied. So harassing comes into play. You're constantly feinting and juking to gain advantage in the early game. Several heroes excel at support, synergy, disabling, etc and don't have to be carried through the early game.

    It's not a grind contest at all. If that's all you're getting, then you should turn up the difficulty of your bots or get out of the jungle and actually show up to an offensive team fight. If you're looking at pro-gaming but only citing FPSs, then I can understand how your preferred twitch-style definition of skill has warped your perception of what makes a game fun.

    DOTA2 is about strategy more than anything else. And the fact that a twitch-gamer calls it casual just tells me that you're crying over not being able to oneshot everyon in a 3v1 fight. Imagine that - it takes strategy, synergy, communication, a comp that adjusts its roles to the situation of the game.

    Game's not really too long, either. All in all it just sounds like it's not your type. And you certainly sounds like you've a type - one that's quickly fading.

  8. #88
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juzalol View Post
    Same applies to other games too. You have to know what to do in each situation.
    There is no difference. It's moving an avatar and aiming at something. If you want to get technical and start talking about wind, realistic falling distance of bullets, etc....then you're really just comparing different technicalities of games. And even then each one has their own set of individual requirements.

    To distinguish these as taking vastly different amounts of time to adjust to is a fallacy. It's all the same. It's conditioned response and muscle memory. I could throw becoming a dodgeball champion into the same category as what you're trying to say and it doesn't make it any different.
    BAD WOLF

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by barackopala View Post
    Shall I ask, who's the general population?
    The entire population of planet Earth.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    I got invited to DotA2 right after first international and I am playing DotA for 7 years. I know DotA community and its history.


    What do you mean with min/max? If you mean damage range. I don't really remember when it came and I don't really think I need to prove myself


    I know it's descended from a Starcraft map but DotA is first true ARTS.

    Claiming ARTS are for CoD/WoW generation is as stupid as all other gross generalizations.

    ps: These kind of claims generally comes from those who fail to play even an easy game like CoD and then start to hate the game and it's community.

    ps2: I didn't know this forum is full with ARTS ignorants. Seriously, go play and see if it's that much easy to do some stuff(I am talking about DotA)
    1. Define what a true arts is please because there were lots of dotalike maps in wc3 that used the trilane tower pushing control one creep formula

    2. min/max means minimizing the weakness and maximizing the strength
    Dota is and always will be to me a dumb down version of warcraft 3, i was never good at wc3 because i like to build 100/100 and only then engage, dota was simpler , one creep , 4 spells. By Min/Max i mean when did people started to rage at you when you weren't doing something that maximasizes the heroes potential, i played dota because it was casual compared to regular warcraft, and now i i'm expect to play in a certain way because some retards don't know how to have fun without winning and that is the WOW community mentality...

  11. #91
    Pit Lord barackopala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    The entire population of planet Earth.
    And why would e-sport want the approval of "the entire population"? the e-sport area itself is growing, it's completely different from the regular sports, plus you're just derailing the topic from "what's the fascination with MOBAS" into a "is e-sport viable" and if it is a global canon of sport which is an unnecesary discussion that will never end, EVER. Mobas do have a competitive scene, wether or not people from outside the style itself like or not is out of discussion, the game is competitive and has tournaments as most games, and games do not really require tournaments to be appealing, see angry birds for example.

  12. #92
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    DotA(First ARTS) is older than WoW. It's neither CoD nor WoW generation it appeals to.
    Aeon of Strife (lawl dead) likes to have a word with 'first'.

  13. #93
    Pit Lord barackopala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    Aeon of Strife (lawl dead) likes to have a word with 'first'.
    Oh the memories... UMS glory at it's finest !

  14. #94
    Brewmaster juzalol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    There is no difference. It's moving an avatar and aiming at something. If you want to get technical and start talking about wind, realistic falling distance of bullets, etc....then you're really just comparing different technicalities of games. And even then each one has their own set of individual requirements.

    To distinguish these as taking vastly different amounts of time to adjust to is a fallacy. It's all the same. It's conditioned response and muscle memory. I could throw becoming a dodgeball champion into the same category as what you're trying to say and it doesn't make it any different.
    I honestly don't know how to convey my thoughts about this post without getting infracted but I'll try my best.

    The level of learning the "mechanics" in a moba games compared to SC2 is on completely different league. By mechanics I don't
    mean how the game works. I mean keeping up your production, having good army control etc. Micro and Macro management.
    Actions that are repeated in every single game. Actions that you automatically do after you have decided what you want to do.

    In Dota 2 mechanics would be stuff like last hitting, keeping track of time to stack neutral camps. Keep stacking the ancients with
    your mind controlled creep without losing last hits on your hero. Multi unit control on Meepo etc.

    In terms of mechanics, Moba games are extremely simple. There is no real routine that interferes with your game play and decision
    making during the game. And after making the correct decision, executing the strategy isn't mechanically taxing at all in most cases.
    Exceptions are stuff like good multi unit control on Meepo or Chen.

    Like I've said in numerous posts above, mobas are not mechanically hard games but they require a lot of knowledge and decision making.
    But after you have decided that you want to use your "Q" on location "X" it isn't hard to press the key and use the ability on the desired
    location.

    In FPS games even if you decided that you want to hit the guy in the head with your desert eagle, doing it requires extreme mouse accuracy
    and thousands of games worth of repetition to be able to execute that action.

    In SC2 and especially in SC:BW there are a lot of routines you will have to keep going even through the most extreme situations and battles
    that will occur. You will have to keep the production up, spreading the creep, expanding etc. This requires sick muscle memory and even the guys
    who practice 10 hours a day will fall apart on their mechanics during big battles.

    I'm not bashing moba games. Hell, I have 50 hours of Dota 2 played last 2 weeks and then there are occasional LoL games in there too. I'm just
    saying that moba games are easier to pick up because once you acquire a certain level of knowledge of the game you can keep playing and having
    fun and not get absolutely destroyed. Other e-sport games are not so forgiving.

  15. #95
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juzalol View Post
    But after you have decided that you want to use your "Q" on location "X" it isn't hard to press the key and use the ability on the desired location.
    Once I've decided to shoot where my cursor is in BF3, it's incredible easy to do that. You make it sound like aiming is rocket science in other games. It's distorting the truth.

    Not to mention that the strategy of shooting is to hit the other person. It's not more difficult to predict or know how that can be effective than in a MOBA, sorry. Just b/c you know that clicking a place sends a spell there, doesn't mean it's the most effective or best thing to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by juzalol View Post
    In FPS games even if you decided that you want to hit the guy in the head with your desert eagle, doing it requires extreme mouse accuracy
    and thousands of games worth of repetition to be able to execute that action.
    do you have scientific evidence to back this up? Some people innately have the ability to be great at it with ease. Some people can play hours on end and never be better. You are trying to argue one side of a piece of information like fact, which is why I'm not going to ever accept your view.
    BAD WOLF

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by barackopala View Post
    And why would e-sport want the approval of "the entire population"?
    You can dismiss it, but it is a measurement the general population of planet Earth uses. Sports root for being included in the Olympics.

    plus you're just derailing the topic from "what's the fascination with MOBAS" into a "is e-sport viable" and if it is a global canon of sport which is an unnecesary discussion that will never end, EVER.
    I merely made a point, that's it. The point being, MOBA is a temporary hype/rage without world-wide recognition from the general public.

    You can go on with your discussion and viewpoint, if you wish to agree to disagree we can settle it with that.

    Mobas do have a competitive scene, wether or not people from outside the style itself like or not is out of discussion, the game is competitive and has tournaments as most games, and games do not really require tournaments to be appealing, see angry birds for example.
    I'm not denying any of that. There's tons of games, even local cultural games, which are appealing, fun, competitive -- you name it. That doesn't mean they're internationally recognized by the general public, like ice skating is.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  17. #97
    Pit Lord barackopala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    You can dismiss it, but it is a measurement the general population of planet Earth uses. Sports root for being included in the Olympics.

    I merely made a point, that's it. The point being, MOBA is a temporary hype/rage without world-wide recognition from the general public.

    You can go on with your discussion and viewpoint, if you wish to agree to disagree we can settle it with that.

    I'm not denying any of that. There's tons of games, even local cultural games, which are appealing, fun, competitive -- you name it. That doesn't mean they're internationally recognized by the general public, like ice skating is.
    All your "it's not a sport" points don't answer the question nor contribute to the fascination from people to Moba's, it's derailing on another topic.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by barackopala View Post
    All your "it's not a sport" points don't answer the question nor contribute to the fascination from people to Moba's, it's derailing on another topic.
    If you think so you are free to ignore it.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  19. #99
    Brewmaster juzalol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Once I've decided to shoot where my cursor is in BF3, it's incredible easy to do that. You make it sound like aiming is rocket science in other games. It's distorting the truth.

    Not to mention that the strategy of shooting is to hit the other person. It's not more difficult to predict or know how that can be effective than in a MOBA, sorry. Just b/c you know that clicking a place sends a spell there, doesn't mean it's the most effective or best thing to do.


    do you have scientific evidence to back this up? Some people innately have the ability to be great at it with ease. Some people can play hours on end and never be better. You are trying to argue one side of a piece of information like fact, which is why I'm not going to ever accept your view.
    Scientific evidence?

    It's physically impossible for you to play thousand games of any game and not improve at all. It's just not possible.
    Scientific evidence that consistently getting split second reaction head shots is difficult and requires a ton of practice?

    Have you ever played any first person shooters? If you have, then you probably have noticed that you don't instantly get
    head shotted by everyone every time even tho it's the most effective method to kill you. It's because it's mechanically hard
    thing to execute.

    If people "innately have the ability to be great a it" it means that they have played a lot of computer games in the past and
    have great mouse control before starting to play the FPS. I have great mouse and keyboard control myself. I can pick up pretty
    much any game and be great at it with couple hours of practice. Getting used to the recoils, learning common camp spots and
    other stuff that are exclusive to that single game.

    And just like you said, just because you know that clicking a place sends spell there isn't the most effective or best thing to do.
    That's why it's a game of knowledge and not muscle memory and mechanical skill. It's a game of knowledge and judgement. It's
    decision making without much emphasis on making the execution of the decided action difficult. That's what makes it easier to
    pick up. Once you know what you want to do it's relatively easy to do.

    I don't understand what you are even trying to say. What's your stand on this? Do you think that moba games are mechanically
    just as difficult as FPS and RTS games like Counter Strike or Starcraft?

    What I'm saying is that moba games are popular because they are pretty easy to pick up, have good team sizes for a small group
    of friends to play together and are free to play as well. By being popular they attract a ton of viewers for e-sport events of those
    games which attracts sponsors which creates professional teams.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by juzalol View Post
    In Dota 2 mechanics would be stuff like last hitting, keeping track of time to stack neutral camps. Keep stacking the ancients with
    your mind controlled creep without losing last hits on your hero. Multi unit control on Meepo etc.

    In terms of mechanics, Moba games are extremely simple. There is no real routine that interferes with your game play and decision
    making during the game. And after making the correct decision, executing the strategy isn't mechanically taxing at all in most cases.
    Exceptions are stuff like good multi unit control on Meepo or Chen.

    Like I've said in numerous posts above, mobas are not mechanically hard games but they require a lot of knowledge and decision making.
    But after you have decided that you want to use your "Q" on location "X" it isn't hard to press the key and use the ability on the desired
    location.
    But it's not so simple. Not when there are enemies you have to pay attention to. Part of the skill is being able to properly evaluate the situation which is not easy with 5 enemies each with different cooldowns on different abilities with different range constantly moving.

    Skill is ability to convey knowledge to actions. Decision making is one of the skills you develop for games. It's not knowledge -> decision making -> skill, it's just knowledge -> skill.

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

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