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  1. #101
    Herald of the Titans Achaman's Avatar
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    its for those people not into shooters like battlefield and cod and whatever else

  2. #102
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    I enjoy MOBA because it's like a mini-RPG that is over in less than an hour usually. You can play them on a "time budget" and not have the experience ruined

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  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by juzalol View Post
    Mobas are terrible spectator sports and even worse as an e-sport. It's difficulty to keep track what's going on
    in the game as there is no single objective that the casters can focus on. [ie. hockey or football, there is the ball...]
    Having to keep track of 10 players on 3 different lanes and possibly jungle is very challenging and you are bound to
    miss stuff as a caster.
    happens in SC2 alot, too. or have you never seen a GSL cast where they totally miss a drop and then just go like "what the hell just happened over there" ? Dota2 with DotATV actually allows you watch the the game by yourself, listening to the comentators, but deciding if you follow their camera or if you spectate around the game yourself to NOT miss stuff, like Tobi usually misses first bloods.

    It's also not very skill based at all. The best team in the business does not consist of the best players in the world or
    even close. Obviously they are very good at the game, but having good player synergy and coordination is far more superior
    than having the best players.
    no. If it was not very skill based, everyone and their grandma would play at competitive level. just a "simple" lasthitting is very different between medicore player and pro. even at pro level, you can see the difference between the top teams - Asians, Navi, Empire and those second tier teams
    EDIT:
    a lot of people above are talking about moba skills having a high skill cap and such. Mobas are not about skill, they are about
    knowledge. Generally if you are a semi decent player if you know what you want to do, executing it isn't difficult. But if you take
    a game like Counter Strike or Starcraft, you have stuff that is 100% about your skill. Like if you are perfect CS player you will
    win every single time as you can always hit people in the head and there is absolutely nothing they can do about it.

    In mobas the "skill shots" are A TON about predicting the movements of the opposing player and no matter how well you aim your stuff
    the enemy player can dodge them. It's about mind games and getting used to how your opponent plays.
    mindgames are skill too. Or do you think baiting someone in CS or SC2 or upgrading caduceus reactor to make your opponent think you build cloak shees is not a skill? Or have you never seen in moba the one player who just turned the teamfight around with an amazing play?
    In SC2 it's multitasking which is highly skill based and requires a ton of practice to even do half decently. Trying to split your marines
    during a big combat, keeping your production up and harassing your opponent with a drop or two is just so much it takes your brain to
    a ride.
    and that is different in mobas.. how? You think you can be pro if you read few pages about heroes and get couple dozen games? Come back when you think you participate in a big tournament. In SC2 you only play against one opponent, try to predict what 5 different people will do at the same time.
    Being a skill based games makes a game a great e-sport but drives away the casual players which drives away the money.
    because CS was not like a most played competitive game for like a decade, not at all...

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-02 at 12:57 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by juzalol View Post
    I don't understand what you are even trying to say. What's your stand on this? Do you think that moba games are mechanically
    just as difficult as FPS and RTS games like Counter Strike or Starcraft?

    What I'm saying is that moba games are popular because they are pretty easy to pick up, have good team sizes for a small group
    of friends to play together and are free to play as well. By being popular they attract a ton of viewers for e-sport events of those
    games which attracts sponsors which creates professional teams.
    Noone is saying that you need super aiming skills or 400 APM in dota. but "mechanical skill" isnt the only kind of skill. Chess arent mechanically hard, either.
    Last edited by Sarevokcz; 2013-02-02 at 12:00 AM.

  4. #104
    Just to clarify what exactly skill is:

    Skill
    Noun:
    1.the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well: Carpentry was one of his many skills.
    2.competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity: The dancers performed with skill.
    3.a craft, trade, or job requiring manual dexterity or special training in which a person has competence and experience: the skill of cabinetmaking.

    Skill is essentially the ability to apply knowledge. Yes, MOBAs do require skill to play. Mechanical difficulty is just another skill. Learning to aim in a 3D environment is a skill. Being able to react and adapt to a changing situation is a skill. Being able to predict an opponent's movements or next play is a skill. Learning to work in a group is a skill. Learning how to utilize resources available to you and applying that in game is a skill. Reacting quickly is a skill. Being accurate is a skill. Hand-eye coordination is a skill. Knowing when to retreat is a skill. Knowing how to lead is a skill. Responding quickly to orders or team mate's requirements is a skill.

    Trying to suggest that MOBA games don't require skill is just silly.

  5. #105
    The Patient Wulfstan's Avatar
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    Try: http://www2.hirezstudios.com/smitegame/home

    It's like LoL or Dota II but in a third person perspective, feels like it has more action in it.
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  6. #106
    Brewmaster juzalol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    Just to clarify what exactly skill is:

    Skill
    Noun:
    1.the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well: Carpentry was one of his many skills.
    2.competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity: The dancers performed with skill.
    3.a craft, trade, or job requiring manual dexterity or special training in which a person has competence and experience: the skill of cabinetmaking.

    Skill is essentially the ability to apply knowledge. Yes, MOBAs do require skill to play. Mechanical difficulty is just another skill. Learning to aim in a 3D environment is a skill. Being able to react and adapt to a changing situation is a skill. Being able to predict an opponent's movements or next play is a skill. Learning to work in a group is a skill. Learning how to utilize resources available to you and applying that in game is a skill. Reacting quickly is a skill. Being accurate is a skill. Hand-eye coordination is a skill. Knowing when to retreat is a skill. Knowing how to lead is a skill. Responding quickly to orders or team mate's requirements is a skill.

    Trying to suggest that MOBA games don't require skill is just silly.
    This is exactly why I'm saying moba games ARE NOT DIFFICULT IN TERMS OF MECHANICS AND THUS ARE EASIER TO START PLAYING
    AS YOU DON'T NEED TO IRON OUT YOUR MECHANICS FOR 2000 GAMES UNTIL YOU CAN EFFECTIVELY USE YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND
    GAME SENSE.

    Stop thinking so black and white. It's not about mobas not requiring skill, it's about them requiring less grinding to iron our mechanics to your
    muscle memory just to be able to function on semi decent level.

    It's a good thing for the genre. It brings more players, which brings more money, which brings more e-sports which brings more players which
    brings even more e-sports.

    I don't understand why people can't accept that the moba genre isn't the most challenging in terms of raw control and is more focused on
    knowledge, teamwork and synergy between the players. Knowing what each hero can do, what you can do and which fights to take and
    when to back off.

    Surely the "big plays" of individual players happen. But they are in most cases also a good decision instead of perfect 5 meepo control. Like
    Magnus hitting 4-5 player RP. It's because of his good positioning and patience to wait for the right moment to blink in. It's based on knowledge.
    He knows the range of the enemies, knows which heros are the most crucial to get in to the RP and knows how long he can wait for the perfect
    ulti before it's too late. He makes a decision based on that knowledge and the action of hitting blink -> "R" key isn't exactly the most challenging
    task.

  7. #107
    Banned Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juzalol View Post
    This is exactly why I'm saying moba games ARE NOT DIFFICULT IN TERMS OF MECHANICS AND THUS ARE EASIER TO START PLAYING
    AS YOU DON'T NEED TO IRON OUT YOUR MECHANICS FOR 2000 GAMES UNTIL YOU CAN EFFECTIVELY USE YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND
    GAME SENSE
    .
    No, you're exactly trying to say what I underlined. Which implies that you need to do that in other games. Which is completely false. Which is why everyone, but you seems to disagree with your opinion of the matter.
    Last edited by Kelimbror; 2013-02-02 at 06:51 AM.

  8. #108
    Stood in the Fire
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    rpg elements in an easy to play short term format. I see the appeal it has for casual play but I hate watching league, far to formulaic with a very passive laning game. The game needs something to mix up the stale lane format and promote different strategies for early game, late game it picks up alot and some really cool fights are common but the wait is to boring for me.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by juzalol View Post
    I honestly don't know how to convey my thoughts about this post without getting infracted but I'll try my best.

    The level of learning the "mechanics" in a moba games compared to SC2 is on completely different league. By mechanics I don't
    mean how the game works. I mean keeping up your production, having good army control etc. Micro and Macro management.
    Actions that are repeated in every single game. Actions that you automatically do after you have decided what you want to do.

    In Dota 2 mechanics would be stuff like last hitting, keeping track of time to stack neutral camps. Keep stacking the ancients with
    your mind controlled creep without losing last hits on your hero. Multi unit control on Meepo etc.

    In terms of mechanics, Moba games are extremely simple. There is no real routine that interferes with your game play and decision
    making during the game. And after making the correct decision, executing the strategy isn't mechanically taxing at all in most cases.
    Exceptions are stuff like good multi unit control on Meepo or Chen.

    Like I've said in numerous posts above, mobas are not mechanically hard games but they require a lot of knowledge and decision making.
    But after you have decided that you want to use your "Q" on location "X" it isn't hard to press the key and use the ability on the desired
    location.

    In FPS games even if you decided that you want to hit the guy in the head with your desert eagle, doing it requires extreme mouse accuracy
    and thousands of games worth of repetition to be able to execute that action.

    In SC2 and especially in SC:BW there are a lot of routines you will have to keep going even through the most extreme situations and battles
    that will occur. You will have to keep the production up, spreading the creep, expanding etc. This requires sick muscle memory and even the guys
    who practice 10 hours a day will fall apart on their mechanics during big battles.

    I'm not bashing moba games. Hell, I have 50 hours of Dota 2 played last 2 weeks and then there are occasional LoL games in there too. I'm just
    saying that moba games are easier to pick up because once you acquire a certain level of knowledge of the game you can keep playing and having
    fun and not get absolutely destroyed. Other e-sport games are not so forgiving.
    Look... How do I put this. My sister made gold league and stayed there at 12 years old as Protoss and she had never played SC2. I remember when I first started LoL, I was quite bad and it took me months to even get a simple understanding of the game. I don't play SC2 really (played a few games) and I suck at it because I don't play it, if I played it then yes I could potentially be good but it would take at least a year to be as good as I am at LoL. SC2 doesn't really have a harder learning curve, I've played the game, a lot of it is just knowing what each unit does initially (just like knowing what a MOBA champion does), counter builds (just like you counter pick in draft modes on MOBA's), etc.

    I get it, you don't like them because they probably took your or so beloved SC2 out of the picture in comparison and do you know why? Because Blizzard doesn't dish out nearly as much money as Riot does for it. Riot has a vision, Blizzard could give two shits otherwise, you're trying to be a hipster and it's failing. It's not a bad genre, sure it has it's community issues but honestly every game does. Lot's of FPS games have horrible communities, every genre does but the reason MOBA is pointed out so much is because of the competitive feel each game has before and when you go in. You just have to take off the blindfold and look, a MOBA requires skill just as much as SC2 but in a different way.

    You could say SC2 is like tennis 1v1 and LoL is like Basketball 5v5.
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  10. #110
    Mechagnome
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    Multiplayer online battle arena = every multiplayer pvp game ever.

  11. #111
    Brewmaster juzalol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duronos View Post
    Look... How do I put this. My sister made gold league and stayed there at 12 years old as Protoss and she had never played SC2. I remember when I first started LoL, I was quite bad and it took me months to even get a simple understanding of the game. I don't play SC2 really (played a few games) and I suck at it because I don't play it, if I played it then yes I could potentially be good but it would take at least a year to be as good as I am at LoL. SC2 doesn't really have a harder learning curve, I've played the game, a lot of it is just knowing what each unit does initially (just like knowing what a MOBA champion does), counter builds (just like you counter pick in draft modes on MOBA's), etc.

    I get it, you don't like them because they probably took your or so beloved SC2 out of the picture in comparison and do you know why? Because Blizzard doesn't dish out nearly as much money as Riot does for it. Riot has a vision, Blizzard could give two shits otherwise, you're trying to be a hipster and it's failing. It's not a bad genre, sure it has it's community issues but honestly every game does. Lot's of FPS games have horrible communities, every genre does but the reason MOBA is pointed out so much is because of the competitive feel each game has before and when you go in. You just have to take off the blindfold and look, a MOBA requires skill just as much as SC2 but in a different way.

    You could say SC2 is like tennis 1v1 and LoL is like Basketball 5v5.
    My beloved SC2?

    I haven't even logged in to SC2 for like 3 seasons or so. I have no bias towards SC2 because I like it
    more or anything. It's just my personal experience that Moba games are just easier. There is nothing esle
    to it. Same applies to some First person shooters like Quake and CS. [they are harder mechanically than Mobas]

    Knowing that a marine has 5 range and shoots stuff doesn't make you physically capable of splitting your army
    in a fraction of a second when banelings roll in. The metagame of SC2 does not apply to i.e. your gold league
    sister because she isn't capable of executing the required tasks to follow the metagame from the pro scene.

    This is not something you can say about moba games. From my experience, especially in League of Legends your
    average games tend to mimic the pro scene as much as possible. There aren't things that only very experienced
    players do because it's super hard to do.

    Exceptions to this are heros like Meepo and Chen. If one would practice 5000 games of Chen or Meepo unit control
    they could play the hero on a different level from the majority of players and could evolve the metagame in a way
    that lesser players could not replicate it. Because the essential part of it is that you have astonishing 5 Meepo control
    and mechanics.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by juzalol View Post
    This is not something you can say about moba games. From my experience, especially in League of Legends your
    average games tend to mimic the pro scene as much as possible. There aren't things that only very experienced
    players do because it's super hard to do.

    Exceptions to this are heros like Meepo and Chen. If one would practice 5000 games of Chen or Meepo unit control
    they could play the hero on a different level from the majority of players and could evolve the metagame in a way
    that lesser players could not replicate it. Because the essential part of it is that you have astonishing 5 Meepo control
    and mechanics.
    That is one thing that really works against SC2 when it comes to popularity. Most of what happens in tournaments doesnt even apply to low skilled players. Before you can even get into strategies builds etc. you need to play hundreds of games until you have adequate APM and multi tasking skills. Its quite frustrating when you have to practice controls for dozens of hours before you can even hope to mimic pro strats.
    Quote Originally Posted by icylock View Post
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  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by juzalol View Post
    This is exactly why I'm saying moba games ARE NOT DIFFICULT IN TERMS OF MECHANICS AND THUS ARE EASIER TO START PLAYING
    AS YOU DON'T NEED TO IRON OUT YOUR MECHANICS FOR 2000 GAMES UNTIL YOU CAN EFFECTIVELY USE YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND
    GAME SENSE.

    Stop thinking so black and white. It's not about mobas not requiring skill, it's about them requiring less grinding to iron our mechanics to your
    muscle memory just to be able to function on semi decent level.

    It's a good thing for the genre. It brings more players, which brings more money, which brings more e-sports which brings more players which
    brings even more e-sports.

    I don't understand why people can't accept that the moba genre isn't the most challenging in terms of raw control and is more focused on
    knowledge, teamwork and synergy between the players. Knowing what each hero can do, what you can do and which fights to take and
    when to back off.

    Surely the "big plays" of individual players happen. But they are in most cases also a good decision instead of perfect 5 meepo control. Like
    Magnus hitting 4-5 player RP. It's because of his good positioning and patience to wait for the right moment to blink in. It's based on knowledge.
    He knows the range of the enemies, knows which heros are the most crucial to get in to the RP and knows how long he can wait for the perfect
    ulti before it's too late. He makes a decision based on that knowledge and the action of hitting blink -> "R" key isn't exactly the most challenging
    task.
    So, my point is valid and has no argument against it. Thanks for clearing that up.

    Addendum: Just for comparison, by what you're suggesting, 5 a side soccer would require no skill or ability etc, just because it's based around small team sizes with simple aims.
    Last edited by Shinzai; 2013-02-02 at 01:57 PM.

  14. #114
    Brewmaster juzalol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    So, my point is valid and has no argument against it. Thanks for clearing that up.

    Addendum: Just for comparison, by what you're suggesting, 5 a side soccer would require no skill or ability etc, just because it's based around small team sizes with simple aims.
    No.

    It requires practice to kick the ball accurately. It requires thousands of games of practice to be able to accurately
    pass or shoot the ball. You are completely missing my point here.

    You see an opening, you try to pass the ball but fair miserably because you can't kick for shit. This is why even if you
    have best game sense in the world if you haven't practice kicking the ball for tens of thousands of times you aren't
    able to do it.

    You see the goalkeeper hanging around in the left side of the goal. There is 0% chance that he will ever reach the top
    right corner if you shoot the ball there. You go for it, the ball misses the entire goal by 10 meters because you can't
    kick for shit.

    This doesn't happen in moba games after a handful of matches because it's mechanically not very challenging. If you see
    5 guys hanging together and you are in a good position you don't miss your big AOE ultimate by accidently clicking it to
    a completely wrong position. Once you have enough knowledge and game sense, if you recognize the opening the execution
    of the desired action is very simple.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by juzalol View Post
    No.

    It requires practice to kick the ball accurately. It requires thousands of games of practice to be able to accurately
    pass or shoot the ball. You are completely missing my point here.

    You see an opening, you try to pass the ball but fair miserably because you can't kick for shit. This is why even if you
    have best game sense in the world if you haven't practice kicking the ball for tens of thousands of times you aren't
    able to do it.

    You see the goalkeeper hanging around in the left side of the goal. There is 0% chance that he will ever reach the top
    right corner if you shoot the ball there. You go for it, the ball misses the entire goal by 10 meters because you can't
    kick for shit.

    This doesn't happen in moba games after a handful of matches because it's mechanically not very challenging. If you see
    5 guys hanging together and you are in a good position you don't miss your big AOE ultimate by accidently clicking it to
    a completely wrong position. Once you have enough knowledge and game sense, if you recognize the opening the execution
    of the desired action is very simple.
    But that would forcibly assume that the other team aren't going to expect some kind of AoE attack and have no concept of how to spread out or use evasive abilities where available. By the same length, you could fire that AoE ultimate at two people, one of who just moved in time for your AoE to become wasted. You're now down an ultimate and exposed to a counter attack. They counter by stunning you and it goes on from there.

  16. #116
    Dreadlord
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    i've played it for 1300 hours now and it just gets better. mostly play with a team who all have played between 1000-2000 hours, and our games dont fit your description of it, u described the lowest of brackets.

    I can understand that it can behard to get into, i 've played dota 1 since 2006 i think, i went to HoN when that came out and back to Dota 2 asap when it came out in beta.
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  17. #117
    Brewmaster juzalol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    But that would forcibly assume that the other team aren't going to expect some kind of AoE attack and have no concept of how to spread out or use evasive abilities where available. By the same length, you could fire that AoE ultimate at two people, one of who just moved in time for your AoE to become wasted. You're now down an ultimate and exposed to a counter attack. They counter by stunning you and it goes on from there.
    And...?

    It doesn't make the action of going in and using the ultimate any more challenging to execute. It just makes the choice of doing so strategically bad.That's why it's a game of knowledge and game sense. If you would magically know the right actions in every single situation I bet my ass that mostof even remotely competent players could perform in a godlike way.

    This doesn't happen in i.e. SC or CS. Even if you know that the best option is to go rush short to A and shoot everyone in the head it doesn't mean you are able to do it. Just because you know that the most effective counter would be to go mass marine and just split perfectly doesn't mean that you are able to do it.

    a situation like this:
    Even if I'd play the same exact situation 500 times I probably would still lose all those engagements extremely bad. And this is coming from mid masters league player[Tho I'm not as good anymore because I haven't played for a quite a while]. There are no situations in moba games where I couldn't replicate the same exact thing after a handful of tries. Because if I know exactly what I'm supposed to do, doing it is not mechanically challenging. Like if you see a huge AOE ultimate massacring the entire enemy team, I watch the replay and then get thrown in the same situation I can easily blink in at the same time that he did in the replay and hit "R".

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by juzalol View Post
    And...?

    It doesn't make the action of going in and using the ultimate any more challenging to execute. It just makes the choice of doing so strategically bad.That's why it's a game of knowledge and game sense. If you would magically know the right actions in every single situation I bet my ass that mostof even remotely competent players could perform in a godlike way.

    This doesn't happen in i.e. SC or CS. Even if you know that the best option is to go rush short to A and shoot everyone in the head it doesn't mean you are able to do it. Just because you know that the most effective counter would be to go mass marine and just split perfectly doesn't mean that you are able to do it.

    a situation like this:
    Even if I'd play the same exact situation 500 times I probably would still lose all those engagements extremely bad. And this is coming from mid masters league player[Tho I'm not as good anymore because I haven't played for a quite a while]. There are no situations in moba games where I couldn't replicate the same exact thing after a handful of tries. Because if I know exactly what I'm supposed to do, doing it is not mechanically challenging. Like if you see a huge AOE ultimate massacring the entire enemy team, I watch the replay and then get thrown in the same situation I can easily blink in at the same time that he did in the replay and hit "R".
    But... your point is exactly what I just laid out: You don't know for a fact that anything will happen, you have to react and evolve around the situation as it occurs. So they use the AoE ultimate, you avoid it. Then one of their team mates snares you because you avoided it. On the other hand, they might not snare you. They could instead pressure your team mates.

    Also, though I agree that the sheer mechanical ability to micro 50 units at the same time is impressive, we both know that SC2 games are won via build orders and reacting to your opponents build orders/attacks/defense. Strategy and reacting correctly will beat perfect micro a vast majority of the time, which is why knowing how to react is a skill and reacting quickly is the most important one. The engagements are important, but the fight is won by preparing the right units and having a constant supply. It's not about simply replicating something, it's about putting your knowledge of how to handle changing situations, constantly.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    Also, though I agree that the sheer mechanical ability to micro 50 units at the same time is impressive, we both know that SC2 games are won via build orders and reacting to your opponents build orders/attacks/defense. Strategy and reacting correctly will beat perfect micro a vast majority of the time, which is why knowing how to react is a skill and reacting quickly is the most important one. The engagements are important, but the fight is won by preparing the right units and having a constant supply. It's not about simply replicating something, it's about putting your knowledge of how to handle changing situations, constantly.
    What skill level are we talking about? For casual players this is true, but only because you can assume that both players will have shit micro. Therefore the player with more resources wins every time
    At a level where players are able to micro properly you can win with any strategy just by having better control. I remember some player that did nothing but mass marines for every single game and he still won many times. If your micro is good enough it doesnt matter if your opponent uses the optimal counter strategy. Templars and Banelings dont mean anything if you always split your marines perfectly.
    Quote Originally Posted by icylock View Post
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  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkidulgaa View Post
    What skill level are we talking about? For casual players this is true, but only because you can assume that both players will have shit micro. Therefore the player with more resources wins every time
    At a level where players are able to micro properly you can win with any strategy just by having better control. I remember some player that did nothing but mass marines for every single game and he still won many times. If your micro is good enough it doesnt matter if your opponent uses the optimal counter strategy. Templars and Banelings dont mean anything if you always split your marines perfectly.
    Most recent example: DRG trashing ST Life 3-0 at the start of the Iron Squid grand finals by just countering his builds.

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